becos the women around here dont hate me enough already

gue_barium wrote:

I know you better than you know yourself, sometimes.

What do you say?

Ha ha, come on now, gue! :rolleyes:

gue_barium wrote:

Behaviours aren't the problem.

It sounds like how you and I define the "problem" here are two separate issues.

baraka wrote:

Hi Jeanie!

How do we explain, then, those women that have torn down these barriers to become successful and powerful? Why are there women today that have been unaffected in their careers & life by 'oppressive male' dominance? I think these women are successful because they didn't subscribe to such notions and did not let it define them or their potential. Yes, there is still an imbalance. But, I feel it is dangerous to 'play the victim'. By playing the victim, you (not you personally, in general) remain in your current situation and shift personal responsibility. Saying, 'we don't hold the power and never will' is a grim outlook and I have no doubt that prediction will come to fruition if repeated to yourself over and over.

It is hard not to get frustrated, I know that from experience. But I have found that when I refuse assume the victim role, I feel more in control of my destiny.

I think some of those women had to fight very hard to get where they are.
And I doubt if you asked them that all of them would say that they had been unaffected. But I still believe that there's not enough women in these situations. I don't think it's because they aren't trying.
I'm not saying that some women haven't made some fantastic inroads and certainly things have changed. BUT if you take the whole of the planet.
NOT just western society and if you also look at the poorer educated, lower socio economic areas of the western world, you will find that women are in some very difficult situations, and they don't have power over their world.
This is also the case for men, but you only have to look at the heirachy to know that women come second. I completely agree that refusing to take the "victim" role is very empowering and can motivate you forward. BUT it's easy for us in our cushy lives to have the good fortune to have made that choice. If you are a women, from a poor background, with little education, then all you are thinking about is food on the table and how to get by. You don't have time to see yourself as anything. I know I'm lucky because I get to enjoy the life that I have and I have the freedom to choose how to live my life. But that is because I am educated and I have had opportunity.
The fact remains that women are second class citizens in many, many parts of the world. And that sexism is still alive and well even in my lucky part of it.
And that's not blaming men. I like men.

gue_barium wrote:

I think ahnimus got over it: the hierarchical 'god'. I swear i think i saw him get past that right here on the AMT.

you're smarter than to think that i would try to impress you with god, baraka. if you want a picture of my shlong, well, that's another matter.

lol. I'm afraid I'm going to have to pass on that gue.

Jeanie wrote:

I think some of those women had to fight very hard to get where they are.
And I doubt if you asked them that all of them would say that they had been unaffected. But I still believe that there's not enough women in these situations. I don't think it's because they aren't trying.
I'm not saying that some women haven't made some fantastic inroads and certainly things have changed. BUT if you take the whole of the planet.
NOT just western society and if you also look at the poorer educated, lower socio economic areas of the western world, you will find that women are in some very difficult situations, and they don't have power over their world.
This is also the case for men, but you only have to look at the heirachy to know that women come second. I completely agree that refusing to take the "victim" role is very empowering and can motivate you forward. BUT it's easy for us in our cushy lives to have the good fortune to have made that choice. If you are a women, from a poor background, with little education, then all you are thinking about is food on the table and how to get by. You don't have time to see yourself as anything. I know I'm lucky because I get to enjoy the life that I have and I have the freedom to choose how to live my life. But that is because I am educated and I have had opportunity.
The fact remains that women are second class citizens in many, many parts of the world. And that sexism is still alive and well even in my lucky part of it.
And that's not blaming men. I like men.

I don't disagree with anything you've said above. And yes, it is harder for women in other parts of the world that deal with poverty. All I'm saying is we play into this discrimination when we 'play the victim'. I would be careful not to make statements like, 'this is how it is and how it will always be'. If I sit and stew about how men get all the advantages (and I have stewed over this!) then I fall into the 'oppressed' category. I refuse to be a victim and continue the cycle.

Being a victim may is a safe place for many, because it is all they know. They get attention and sympathy. But remaining a victim just drains you of power and self respect and the love and power you seek cannot be obtained by playing the role of victim. Playing the victim is a protective mechanism and it becomes completely ingrained unfortunately. However, this thinking can imprison yourself to the very thing that you think protects you.

Jeanie wrote:

And I doubt if you asked them that all of them would say that they had been unaffected. But I still believe that there's not enough women in these situations. I don't think it's because they aren't trying.

Of course all women are affected. I would not suggest women have it easy at all. Life is filled with challenges that we can learn to overcome as we unfold as who we are.

There are not enough women in positions of power. And we're fully capable. I say that women hold themselves back just as much as men hold us back.

I fully, and very much realize that as a strong woman, one faces distinct challenges. First off, there are many guys who want to "put you in your place". I get this all the time. It's a false position, though. It is about the guy and his own issues, and has no actual power over me, unless I accept his efforts. I continue to learn to rise beyond this.

Ultimately, though, male or female, it comes down to the "pecking order" in ways. And men have to face these power struggles, too. They "have to" accept what roles they are able to eke out in the pecking order, just like we do. Yes, it bugs me that in order to get valued and respected on the male terms, that I have had to hone my skills and align with them. Interestingly, though, due to this dynamic both women and minorities are known to develop a stronger sixth sense and creative abiliities, because we really learn to work that system, unlike the stereotypical (lol) white male who the system is designed for. For example, myself and other women on this board have talked privately about how interestingly, we approach these subjects through logic because we would not be taken seriously with emotional or intuitive arguments. We step out of what comes as naturally, in order to do what it takes to be heard. More power to us when we do so, if we can hone more balanced intelligence. The pay off is that we develop ourselves to greater degrees and we get positive feedback which encourages the process. Similarily, I definitely give the men I know positive feedback when they face and deal with emotional issues and similarly become more "balanced".

I certainly don't think women are held back for lack of trying. We're held back because we are evolutionarily where we are. At the same time, when we learn more and more what we are up against, and find more and more of our authentic power, look out!

angelica wrote:

Of course all women are affected. I would not suggest women have it easy at all. Life is filled with challenges that we can learn to overcome as we unfold as who we are.

There are not enough women in positions of power. And we're fully capable. I say that women hold themselves back just as much as men hold us back.

I fully, and very much realize that as a strong woman, one faces distinct challenges. First off, there are many guys who want to "put you in your place". I get this all the time. It's a false position, though. It is about the guy and his own issues, and has no actual power over me, unless I accept his efforts. I continue to learn to rise beyond this.

Ultimately, though, male or female, it comes down to the "pecking order" in ways. And men have to face these power struggles, too. They "have to" accept what roles they are able to eke out in the pecking order, just like we do. Yes, it bugs me that in order to get valued and respected on the male terms, that I have had to hone my skills and align with them. Interestingly, though, due to this dynamic both women and minorities are known to develop a stronger sixth sense and creative abiliities, because we really learn to work that system, unlike the stereotypical (lol) white male who the system is designed for. For example, myself and other women on this board have talked privately about how interestingly, we approach these subjects through logic because we would not be taken seriously with emotional or intuitive arguments. We step out of what comes as naturally, in order to do what it takes to be heard. More power to us when we do so, if we can hone more balanced intelligence. The pay off is that we develop ourselves to greater degrees and we get positive feedback which encourages the process. Similarily, I definitely give the men I know positive feedback when they face and deal with emotional issues and similarly become more "balanced".

I certainly don't think women are held back for lack of trying. We're held back because we are evolutionarily where we are. At the same time, when we learn more and more what we are up against, and find more and more of our authentic power, look out!

I always thought you came from a more spiritual-sided perspective than a feminist one.

angelica wrote:

You'll see what you want to see.

Every once in awhile, the dominatrix remedies the imbalance. Is it the cure? Nah.

gue_barium wrote:

Every once in awhile, the dominatrix remedies the imbalance. Is it the cure? Nah.

I'll be waiting when you give up the emotional argument for a logical one.

gue_barium wrote:

Every once in awhile, the dominatrix remedies the imbalance. Is it the cure? Nah.

What? Dominatrix remedies? What is that exactly and how does it apply to angelica's posts?