Parents of murdered gay man have a question for the GOP

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  • catefrances
    catefrances Posts: 29,003
    gue_barium wrote:
    I'm getting the idea that you hate men and men hate you.

    no darlin' i dont hate men and you know that. im just wondering why crime against women isnt considered a hate crime when clearly that is a motivation. how is it possible to class other crimes as hate crimes when they are targetted specifically at a jew or a gay guy but when a crime that targets a woman specifically tis not considered a hate crime.
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  • catefrances
    catefrances Posts: 29,003
    cornnifer wrote:
    Because they're ugly freaks who can't get laid otherwise. Its not motivated by a general hate of women, those crimes are motivated by sick, sexual, perversion and agression. Not a "hate crime".

    so when johnny murders his mother cause she wouldn't shut the fuck up and kept nagging and nagging and nagging and then he turns that into a series by murdering and dismembering other woman purely because they remind him of his mother, that isnt HATE fuelled?
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  • gue_barium
    gue_barium Posts: 5,515
    catefrances wrote:
    no darlin' i dont hate men and you know that. im just wondering why crime against women isnt considered a hate crime when clearly that is a motivation. how is it possible to class other crimes as hate crimes when they are targetted specifically at a jew or a gay guy but when a crime that targets a woman specifically tis not considered a hate crime.

    I dunno. You're seeing a different universiality of things and the great war of the sexes in the sky, i guess, than i am.
    I don't know that violent crime against women is not considered "hate" motivated. What this crime bill deliniates is "culture." The "culture of woman" in the universal sense is still something of psychology texts and fiction.
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  • cornnifer
    cornnifer Posts: 2,130
    Skitch Patterson wrote:
    The problem in hate crimes is determining this supposed motive of hate.

    if a gay guy grabs your cock at a club, and you say "faggot" when you punch him in the face, is that a hate crime?

    I dont think so, you're punching him for another reason, the term you use is irrelevant.

    No. That would be aggravated assault motivated by someone grabbing your cock without permission, (which could potentially be considered sexual assault in its own right). i'm not a lawyer but i'm thinkin the punishment for punching the alleged cockgrabber would be fairly light.

    That isn't the same thing as seeing two men holding hands, and, without any other provocation, beating the shit out of them while calling them all kinds of faggots and queers. The two situations are, very obviously, not even comparable. Its apples and oranges, really. The latter, is without question, a "hate crime", and should carry a heavier punishment than your average assault charge.
    "When all your friends and sedatives mean well but make it worse... better find yourself a place to level out."
  • gue_barium
    gue_barium Posts: 5,515
    cornnifer wrote:
    Because they're ugly freaks who can't get laid otherwise.

    Baloney. Pure baloney. Talk about stereotyping. Sheesh.
    Rape is not about "getting laid."
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  • cornnifer
    cornnifer Posts: 2,130
    catefrances wrote:
    so when johnny murders his mother cause she wouldn't shut the fuck up and kept nagging and nagging and nagging and then he turns that into a series by murdering and dismembering other woman purely because they remind him of his mother, that isnt HATE fuelled?

    It would be more of a sick, twisted, perverse, manifestation of hatred towards his mother, perhaps, not women in general. Besides, once you've taken to multiple murders and dismemberings, you're pretty much fucked anyway. Tacking on "hate crime" chargers is not going to effect the sentence much.
    "When all your friends and sedatives mean well but make it worse... better find yourself a place to level out."
  • cornnifer
    cornnifer Posts: 2,130
    gue_barium wrote:
    Baloney. Pure baloney. Talk about stereotyping. Sheesh.
    Rape is not about "getting laid."

    Sorry, didn't mean to sterotype serial rapists. Talk about "sheesh".
    "When all your friends and sedatives mean well but make it worse... better find yourself a place to level out."
  • gue_barium
    gue_barium Posts: 5,515
    cornnifer wrote:
    Sorry, didn't mean to sterotype serial rapists. Talk about "sheesh".

    ahh, so there are lesser "reasons" to make one of the human race less than human. nice.

    that's kind of how a rapist thinks.
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  • catefrances
    catefrances Posts: 29,003
    gue_barium wrote:
    I dunno. You're seeing a different universiality of things and the great war of the sexes in the sky, i guess, than i am.
    I don't know that violent crime against women is not considered "hate" motivated. What this crime bill deliniates is "culture." The "culture of woman" in the universal sense is still something of psychology texts and fiction.


    so what youre saying is women have no separate culture that can be recognised? that we are actually a part of what culture? i need you to be specific so we dont get tripped up on ambiguity.

    and of course we're seeing a different universality of things. we live in patriarchal society. you are part of that patriarchy. i am a woman therefore by definition i can not be, except by complicity and subjugation.
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  • JD Sal
    JD Sal Posts: 790
    cornnifer wrote:
    Because they're ugly freaks who can't get laid otherwise. Its not motivated by a general hate of women, those crimes are motivated by sick, sexual, perversion and agression. Not a "hate crime".

    Rape can lead to the disempowerment of a group of people. Catefrances is right that a crime against a woman can cause fear and intimidation in all women, however the punishment for rape has been deemed appropriate for the crime. In 2000, the law for hate crime (a crime against someone specifically because of their race, religion, sexual orientation, ethnicity/national origin, or disability) needed to be strengthened to recognize the societal harm it causes.

    Read again what the the New York State Legislature wrote:

    ..."Current law does not adequately recognize the harm to public order and individual safety that hate crimes cause. Therefore, our laws must be strengthened to provide clear recognition of the gravity of hate crimes and the compelling importance of preventing their recurrence. Accordingly, the legislature finds and declares that hate crimes should be prosecuted and punished with appropriate severity."
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  • catefrances
    catefrances Posts: 29,003
    cornnifer wrote:
    It would be more of a sick, twisted, perverse, manifestation of hatred towards his mother, perhaps, not women in general. Besides, once you've taken to multiple murders and dismemberings, you're pretty much fucked anyway. Tacking on "hate crime" chargers is not going to effect the sentence much.

    his HATRED for his mother is manifested in his serial killing WOMEN. he transfers the specific HATE to the general female population. he's not killing just anyone, he's targetting WOMEN.
    and whether or not it affects the final sentencing is irrelevant.

    oh and btw not all rapists and serial murderers are ugly physically.
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  • catefrances
    catefrances Posts: 29,003
    JD Sal wrote:
    Rape can lead to the disempowerment of a group of people. Catefrances is right that a crime against a woman can cause fear and intimidation in all women, however the punishment for rape has been deemed appropriate for the crime. In 2000, the law for hate crime (a crime against someone specifically because of their race, religion, sexual orientation, ethnicity/national origin, or disability) needed to be strengthened to recognize the societal harm it causes.

    not can lead to. it does lead to.
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  • JD Sal
    JD Sal Posts: 790
    catefrances wrote:
    his HATRED for his mother is manifested in his serial killing WOMEN. he transfers the specific HATE to the general female population. he's not killing just anyone, he's targetting WOMEN.
    and whether or not it affects the final sentencing is irrelevant.

    oh and btw not all rapists and serial murderers are ugly physically.

    Read my post above. The punishment for rape and crimes against women is deemed appropriate as it factors in the fear and intimidation in can cause in all women.
    "If no one sees you, you're not here at all"
  • cornnifer
    cornnifer Posts: 2,130
    gue_barium wrote:
    ahh, so there are lesser "reasons" to make one of the human race less than human. nice.

    that's kind of how a rapist thinks.
    [size=+50]???[/size]
    "When all your friends and sedatives mean well but make it worse... better find yourself a place to level out."
  • surferdude
    surferdude Posts: 2,057
    catefrances wrote:
    i'm acting weird? how so?

    could it be because i am able to see the message that crimes perpetrated against women by men send to other women. that i can see how it shapes how we live, how we communicate, how we go into the world.
    are you trying to tell me it's different when a woman is targetted simply because she is a woman. that this somehow does not count the way it would if she were a gay man? or how about if the victim was a jewish woman? would it be hate crime by virtue of the fact that she was jewish? would the fact that she is also a woman be irrelevant? is it not enough to just hate her because she's a woman? by violating her(as a woman) that doesn't send a message to all other women regardless of age or ethnicity at all, right?
    You do know the biggest victim proportionally of crimes are male. Hate crime legislation does absolutely nothing to protect the largest contingent of crime victims. Hate crime legislation is like affirmative discrimination in my opinion, it's just plain wrong. All crime carries are large component of not caring about society and hating the victim. Victimizing certain groups make no sense to me.
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  • JD Sal
    JD Sal Posts: 790
    catefrances wrote:
    not can lead to. it does lead to.

    Rape against women does, absolutely.
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  • catefrances
    catefrances Posts: 29,003
    JD Sal wrote:
    Read my post above. The punishment for rape and crimes against women is deemed appropriate as it factors in the fear and intimidation in can cause in all women.

    im not debating this aspect. my concern is specific. always has been on this thread.
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  • JD Sal
    JD Sal Posts: 790
    surferdude wrote:
    You do know the biggest victim proportionally of crimes are male. Hate crime legislation does absolutely nothing to protect the largest contingent of crime victims.

    Why?
    "If no one sees you, you're not here at all"
  • JD Sal
    JD Sal Posts: 790
    catefrances wrote:
    im not debating this aspect. my concern is specific. always has been on this thread.

    But that's your concern. Why isn't crime against women labeled hate crime, right? I just explained to you why.
    "If no one sees you, you're not here at all"
  • gue_barium
    gue_barium Posts: 5,515
    catefrances wrote:
    so what youre saying is women have no separate culture that can be recognised? that we are actually a part of what culture? i need you to be specific so we dont get tripped up on ambiguity.

    and of course we're seeing a different universality of things. we live in patriarchal society. you are part of that patriarchy. i am a woman therefore by definition i can not be, except by complicity and subjugation.

    I think the cultures, respectively, of men and women are evolving, society be damned, love will prevail.
    of course, i'm a romantic, they say.

    hate crimes are those that monitor the behavior of a free society. of all cultures. in this day and age of consumerism and pop capitalism, i think there is an equanimity in this particular battle of cultures.
    i think you're scraping the bottom of the barrel on this. that isn't to say there aren't some twisted fucks in this world created by the system (i think there are), but i also don't subscribe to the notion a perfect society. i think the law is good, in the case for the betterment of civility and society.
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