Parents of murdered gay man have a question for the GOP

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  • darkcrow wrote:

    What is the GOP going to do to minimize crime??? I don't know why people insist on calling these "hate crimes". That type of terminology does nothing but perpetuate inequality. Murder is murder... it doesn't matter what the intentions are.
  • 810wmb810wmb Posts: 849
    sorry about the guy being murdered, but it's a crap question
    i'm the meat, yer not...signed Capt Asshat
  • chopitdownchopitdown Posts: 2,222
    you can promote a climate of understanding all you want, but you can never control every little freak out there that thinks it's ok to do this. People put way too much emphasis on what can the president do, what can congress do. How bout what can each individual do??? You have to encourage people to treat others with respect that's about all the president can do. Sure you can legislate anti hate measures etc..., but if laws solved problems why are the prisons so crowded? Just b/c a law exists doesn't mean that everyone will follow it. Murder still happens, kidnapping happens, people still smoke pot and drink underage etc...
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  • onelongsongonelongsong Posts: 3,517
    darkcrow wrote:

    wtf? most criminals are democrats. republicans are usually business owners and those who know that if you help business; it helps everyone. mostly by providing jobs and stimulating the economy. maybe all the gay people should be shipped to an island or something. oh, wait; there are many gay criminals so they have a chance of getting killed anyway. gee; welcome to life.
  • know1know1 Posts: 6,794
    bgivens33 wrote:
    What is the GOP going to do to minimize crime??? I don't know why people insist on calling these "hate crimes". That type of terminology does nothing but perpetuate inequality. Murder is murder... it doesn't matter what the intentions are.

    Totally agree. Hate crime laws should be abolished.
    The only people we should try to get even with...
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  • flywallyflyflywallyfly Posts: 1,453
    wtf? most criminals are democrats. republicans are usually business owners and those who know that if you help business; it helps everyone. mostly by providing jobs and stimulating the economy. maybe all the gay people should be shipped to an island or something. oh, wait; there are many gay criminals so they have a chance of getting killed anyway. gee; welcome to life.

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  • ??????????????????

    glad it wasn't just me...


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  • bgivens33 wrote:
    I don't know why people insist on calling these "hate crimes". That type of terminology does nothing but perpetuate inequality. Murder is murder... it doesn't matter what the intentions are.
    This murder wouldn't have happened if the kid was straight.
    know1 wrote:
    Hate crime laws should be abolished.
    .............would you care to elaborate this thought?
  • 810wmb810wmb Posts: 849
    danny72688 wrote:
    This murder wouldn't have happened if the kid was straight.

    well he could have been black and got killed
    he could have been white and got killed
    he could have been fat and got killed

    big ears, etc...you get the picture

    there are a lot of people murdered for a lot of reasons...sometimes for no reason at all.
    i'm the meat, yer not...signed Capt Asshat
  • know1know1 Posts: 6,794
    danny72688 wrote:
    .............would you care to elaborate this thought?

    It makes no sense to call a white on black crime a "hate crime" while calling a white on white crime (or other combinations) just a crime. Prosecute for the crime, not for the intent.
    The only people we should try to get even with...
    ...are those who've helped us.

    Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
  • know1 wrote:
    It makes no sense to call a white on black crime a "hate crime" while calling a white on white crime (or other combinations) just a crime. Prosecute for the crime, not for the intent.

    state of mind is important. a hate crime is such that you are saying "but for the race/gender/sexuality/culture/ethnicity, this person would not have been killed". so, basically, you have someone that is murdered for no other reason than being. that is pretty sick to me. the person didn't do anything other than offend someone by their very being a certain way...a hate crime exacerbates a crime instead of being a crime in and of itself (it is a general term). if you only punish based on intent then you effectively abolish all law based on negligence and and unintended consequences.

    for instance, "my intent was to beat the guy within an inch of his life, but he died. i'm sorry that was not my intention."

    "okay, sir, here is your sentence for criminal assault and battery."

    you punish the act/outcome not the intent unless the intent somehow exacerbates or mitigates the crime and then it is taken into account with the crime instead of apart from the act.
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  • gue_bariumgue_barium Posts: 5,515
    810wmb wrote:
    well he could have been black and got killed
    he could have been white and got killed
    he could have been fat and got killed

    big ears, etc...you get the picture

    there are a lot of people murdered for a lot of reasons...sometimes for no reason at all.

    there is never a reason for murder. ever.

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  • 810wmb wrote:
    well he could have been black and got killed
    he could have been white and got killed
    he could have been fat and got killed

    big ears, etc...you get the picture

    there are a lot of people murdered for a lot of reasons...sometimes for no reason at all.
    There is always a reason. Some are better than others (not justifying murder or anything, just saying). You don't wake up one morning and think: "Hey it'd be fun to kill someone today!" There is always some underlying reasoning, may it be that you hate gays or blacks, the guy ran over and killed your son driving drunk and you want revenge, or maybe you're just fucked up in the head and voices told you to do it.
  • know1 wrote:
    It makes no sense to call a white on black crime a "hate crime" while calling a white on white crime (or other combinations) just a crime. Prosecute for the crime, not for the intent.
    White on white crimes aren't done out of hatred for that race/ethnicity/sexual orientation/religious belief/etc. and if they are then that's a hate crime.

    And not all white on black crimes are hate crimes. Maybe a black guy stiffed a white guy on a drug deal, and the white guy didn't like that so he goes after him and kills him. That's not a hate crime. But a white person killing a black person BECAUSE HE IS BLACK, and for no other reason besides that, IS a hate crime and vice versa.
  • 810wmb810wmb Posts: 849
    i hate motherfuckers, so i kill them - that's a hate crime...
    i'm the meat, yer not...signed Capt Asshat
  • JD SalJD Sal Posts: 790
    Hate crimes are different because they are not just directed at an individual but are meant to cause fear and intimidation in an entire group or class of people.

    The folks that don't see any difference with "hate crimes" must be looking at just the crime itself and not the repercussions. When hate crimes are commited, the chances for retaliatory crimes are much greater.

    The New York State Legislature wrote the following when it enacted the Hate Crimes Act of 2000:

    Hate crimes do more than threaten the safety and welfare of all citizens. They inflict on victims incalculable physical and emotional damage and tear at the very fabric of free society. Crimes motivated by invidious hatred toward particular groups not only harm individual victims but send a powerful message of intolerance and discrimination to all members of the group to which the victim belongs. Hate crimes can and do intimidate and disrupt entire communities and vitiate the civility that is essential to healthy democratic processes. In a democratic society, citizens cannot be required to approve of the beliefs and practices of others, but must never commit criminal acts on account of them. Current law does not adequately recognize the harm to public order and individual safety that hate crimes cause. Therefore, our laws must be strengthened to provide clear recognition of the gravity of hate crimes and the compelling importance of preventing their recurrence. Accordingly, the legislature finds and declares that hate crimes should be prosecuted and punished with appropriate severity."
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  • gue_bariumgue_barium Posts: 5,515
    danny72688 wrote:
    There is always a reason. Some are better than others (not justifying murder or anything, just saying). You don't wake up one morning and think: "Hey it'd be fun to kill someone today!" There is always some underlying reasoning, may it be that you hate gays or blacks, the guy ran over and killed your son driving drunk and you want revenge, or maybe you're just fucked up in the head and voices told you to do it.

    Those aren't reasons, are they? I know you aren't trying to justify killing, but if you think about what you are stating here, unless you're some sort of murder scene investigator, I don't follow the logic. An investigation into murder hypothesizes and profiles possible scenarios in order to narrow down or target a suspect. It doesn't give a reason for murder.

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  • gue_bariumgue_barium Posts: 5,515
    810wmb wrote:
    i hate motherfuckers, so i kill them - that's a hate crime...

    I sympathize...

    http://youtube.com/watch?v=sDcY6CjdtuM&feature=related

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  • catefrancescatefrances Posts: 29,003
    JD Sal wrote:
    Hate crimes are different because they are not just directed at an individual but are meant to cause fear and intimidation in an entire group or class of people.

    The folks that don't see any difference with "hate crimes" must be looking at just the crime itself and not the repercussions. When hate crimes are commited, the chances for retaliatory crimes are much greater.

    The New York State Legislature wrote the following when it enacted the Hate Crimes Act of 2000:

    Hate crimes do more than threaten the safety and welfare of all citizens. They inflict on victims incalculable physical and emotional damage and tear at the very fabric of free society. Crimes motivated by invidious hatred toward particular groups not only harm individual victims but send a powerful message of intolerance and discrimination to all members of the group to which the victim belongs. Hate crimes can and do intimidate and disrupt entire communities and vitiate the civility that is essential to healthy democratic processes. In a democratic society, citizens cannot be required to approve of the beliefs and practices of others, but must never commit criminal acts on account of them. Current law does not adequately recognize the harm to public order and individual safety that hate crimes cause. Therefore, our laws must be strengthened to provide clear recognition of the gravity of hate crimes and the compelling importance of preventing their recurrence. Accordingly, the legislature finds and declares that hate crimes should be prosecuted and punished with appropriate severity."

    okay then..so by that rationale, ALL RAPE and SERIAL KILLING of women,
    should be considered a hate crime.
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  • gue_bariumgue_barium Posts: 5,515
    JD Sal wrote:
    Hate crimes are different because they are not just directed at an individual but are meant to cause fear and intimidation in an entire group or class of people.

    The folks that don't see any difference with "hate crimes" must be looking at just the crime itself and not the repercussions. When hate crimes are commited, the chances for retaliatory crimes are much greater.

    The New York State Legislature wrote the following when it enacted the Hate Crimes Act of 2000:

    Hate crimes do more than threaten the safety and welfare of all citizens. They inflict on victims incalculable physical and emotional damage and tear at the very fabric of free society. Crimes motivated by invidious hatred toward particular groups not only harm individual victims but send a powerful message of intolerance and discrimination to all members of the group to which the victim belongs. Hate crimes can and do intimidate and disrupt entire communities and vitiate the civility that is essential to healthy democratic processes. In a democratic society, citizens cannot be required to approve of the beliefs and practices of others, but must never commit criminal acts on account of them. Current law does not adequately recognize the harm to public order and individual safety that hate crimes cause. Therefore, our laws must be strengthened to provide clear recognition of the gravity of hate crimes and the compelling importance of preventing their recurrence. Accordingly, the legislature finds and declares that hate crimes should be prosecuted and punished with appropriate severity."

    That's well-written.

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  • gue_bariumgue_barium Posts: 5,515
    okay then..so by that rationale, ALL RAPE and SERIAL KILLING of women,
    should be considered a hate crime.

    No. The "Hate Crime" stems from differences in culture and violent consequences yielded from intolerance. "Hate" seems a very general term to use, of course, but the intent of the law seems well-defined.

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  • catefrancescatefrances Posts: 29,003
    gue_barium wrote:
    No. The "Hate Crime" stems from differences in culture and violent consequences yielded from intolerance. "Hate" seems a very general term to use, of course, but the intent of the law seems well-defined.

    so then men who serially murder women or rape woman dont hate them? they do it cause...why exactly?
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  • gue_bariumgue_barium Posts: 5,515
    so then men who serially murder women or rape woman dont hate them? they do it cause...why exactly?

    Good christ, i don't know cate. that's a different topic. You're focusing on the word "hate' in Hate Crime. The intent of the law, at least given by JDSal's state seems very specific on what a hate crime is. It is about cultural intolerance. It is about cultural bigotry in a free society.

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  • catefrancescatefrances Posts: 29,003
    gue_barium wrote:
    Good christ, i don't know cate. that's a different topic. You're focusing on the word "hate' in Hate Crime. The intent of the law, at least given by JDSal's state seems very specific on what a hate crime is. It is about cultural intolerance. It is about cultural bigotry in a free society.

    HOW is hate against women and the crimes perpetrated against them any different? is it cause we're dealing with MEN'S laws here?
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  • gue_bariumgue_barium Posts: 5,515
    HOW is hate against women and the crimes perpetrated against them any different? is it cause we're dealing with MEN'S laws here?
    You've chosen to focus on "hate" in the Hate Crime bills. I think the law is aimed toward a more general demographic of culture than that just of sex.

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  • prismprism Posts: 2,440
    HOW is hate against women and the crimes perpetrated against them any different? is it cause we're dealing with MEN'S laws here?

    not to be stating the obvious but men get raped and murdered too
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  • catefrancescatefrances Posts: 29,003
    gue_barium wrote:
    You've chosen to focus on "hate" in the Hate Crime bills. I think the law is aimed toward a more general demographic of culture than that just of sex.

    well then if one is not going to focus on the HATE in the HATE crimes bill, then why have a HATE crimes bill in the first place?

    you think? you think the law is aimed that way? well of course it's aimed that way, cause as we all know women have it coming when they are raped and murdered cause little johnny couldnt get it up from mere pleasure alone anymore. when little johnny hated that bitch of a mother so much that after he stabbed her to death and decapitated her, he had to systematically kill every woman he came across that reminded him of that f#@king bitch.

    so tell me again how i can't NOT focus on the HATE in the HATE crimes bill?

    or is it that you think that women cant be victims of hate crimes simply due to the fact that they're women? that somehow crimes against women are just expressions of love and compassion? or a misunderstood childhood?
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  • catefrancescatefrances Posts: 29,003
    prism wrote:
    not to be stating the obvious but men get raped and murdered too

    yes this is true. however my contention was why crimes against women aren't considered hate crimes or why there's even a need for a hate crimes bill in the first place. what is it that defines a hate crime as opposed to any other crime directed at a specific person or persons?
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  • gue_bariumgue_barium Posts: 5,515
    well then if one is not going to focus on the HATE in the HATE crimes bill, then why have a HATE crimes bill in the first place?

    you think? you think the law is aimed that way? well of course it's aimed that way, cause as we all know women have it coming when they are raped and murdered cause little johnny couldnt get it up from mere pleasure alone anymore. when little johnny hated that bitch of a mother so much that after he stabbed her to death and decapitated her, he had to systematically kill every woman he came across that reminded him of that f#@king bitch.

    so tell me again how i can't NOT focus on the HATE in the HATE crimes bill?

    or is it that you think that women cant be victims of hate crimes simply due to the fact that they're women? that somehow crimes against women are just expressions of love and compassion? or a misunderstood childhood?
    The spirit of the law (re: hate crimes) as i see it does not intend to ignore the vagaries of all
    other crimes of hate. You're acting weird about this. Violent crimes are still violent crimes.

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  • prismprism Posts: 2,440
    yes this is true. however my contention was why crimes against women aren't considered hate crimes or why there's even a need for a hate crimes bill in the first place. what is it that defines a hate crime as opposed to any other crime directed at a specific person or persons?

    it would be if she were singled out for attack because of her race, sexual orientation, ethnicity etc.
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