I hate these guys...

The sad truth of the matter is that if California lost its slave labor population, it would lose billions more dollars than it already figuratively does through its social services.

That is, after all, the reason why virtually ALL politicans are slow to do anything about the problem except for, hmmm, PUSH FOR AMNESTY!

Before pointing a single self-righteous finger at these "law-breaking" illegal immigrants, take a good look at who is hiring them and why no one is doing anything about it.

In this global economy in which we compete with nations whose industry is built on the backs of workers who earn pennies on the hour, the US has managed to stay afloat by using slave labor of its own, and that is of course also known as illegal immigrant labor.

So before you complain about hospital emergency rooms being overwhelmed by undocumented immigrants, think of the greedy employers who knowingly employ those people and their families without providing proper healthcare coverage or even paying into Medicaid or Medicare, which would normally cover the cost of medical expenses for the poor.

The Republican propaganda machine wants the American people to keep focusing on the illegal immigrants because they want the attention kept away from the businesses who are profiting from their cheap labor.

And the reason why Republicans lambasted McCain for pushing for Amenesty is because they don't want US businesses to have to pay fair and decent wages.

Again, the last statistic I read was that if California suddenly lost its illegal immigrant labor force, it would suddenly be in the hole by $10 Billion dollars, which is a lot more than it hypothetically loses through the extra burden on social services.

I think it's safe to assume that other states who have large illegal immigrant population would stand to take similarly significant losses.

I couldn't find the Orange County Register article which mentioned the $10 Billion in losses if California lost its illegal labor, but here's something I googled:

The gross economic contribution by each undocumented immigrant to the California economy was therefore about $45,000, including children, the unemployed, and those too old or ill to work.........It is clear that the labor of undocumented workers not only pumps tens of billions of dollars into the state’s economy, but that the workers themselves receive only a small percentage of it, a much smaller percentage of the value which they produce than that received by workers who are either citizens or legal residents.

http://www.pww.org/article/view/4169/1/183/

SorrowDirge wrote:

Wake up sheeple, we are silently being invaded. Not only should we build a fence, but it should extend from Texas to California.

Do you actually think a fence would stop anyone? They have ladders in Mexico. Considering the fact that tons of people made it over the Berlin Wall even though that fence was fully guarded and they would shoot you on sight makes me think that an unguarded fence would really stop no one.

can someone tell me why a fence along our border is a bad idea?

sponger wrote:

The sad truth of the matter is that if California lost its slave labor population, it would lose billions more dollars than it already figuratively does through its social services.

That is, after all, the reason why virtually ALL politicans are slow to do anything about the problem except for, hmmm, PUSH FOR AMNESTY!

Before pointing a single self-righteous finger at these "law-breaking" illegal immigrants, take a good look at who is hiring them and why no one is doing anything about it.

In this global economy in which we compete with nations whose industry is built on the backs of workers who earn pennies on the hour, the US has managed to stay afloat by using slave labor of its own, and that is of course also known as illegal immigrant labor.

So before you complain about hospital emergency rooms being overwhelmed by undocumented immigrants, think of the greedy employers who knowingly employ those people and their families without providing proper healthcare coverage or even paying into Medicaid or Medicare, which would normally cover the cost of medical expenses for the poor.

The Republican propaganda machine wants the American people to keep focusing on the illegal immigrants because they want the attention kept away from the businesses who are profiting from their cheap labor.

And the reason why Republicans lambasted McCain for pushing for Amenesty is because they don't want US businesses to have to pay fair and decent wages.

Again, the last statistic I read was that if California suddenly lost its illegal immigrant labor force, it would suddenly be in the hole by $10 Billion dollars, which is a lot more than it hypothetically loses through the extra burden on social services.

I think it's safe to assume that other states who have large illegal immigrant population would stand to take similarly significant losses.

I couldn't find the Orange County Register article which mentioned the $10 Billion in losses if California lost its illegal labor, but here's something I googled:



http://www.pww.org/article/view/4169/1/183/

Sponger, i think your points are valid and you bring us back to what IS the issue for many people ... particularly some of the economist talking heads. I don't think anyone here is BLAMING illegal immigrants ... but part of addressing this issue is addressing the supply (the illegal workers) and part of it is addressing the demand (the employers want of below market labor).

But, at the bottom line, you are correct. What we now face as a country is a systemic economic dillema. Shoring up the situation with regard to illegal workers would most certainly put short term pressures on the American economy, but it would also force the market to sort it out. If agriculture started going deep in the red (even in spite of massive subisdy by the government) because below market labor was no longer available, maybe it would force some beneficial changes in the industry collectively. Remember, necessity is the mother of invention.

Anyhow. I don't want to spend my entire morning typing a diatribe on illegal immigration and economics. I just wanted to point out that i don't think much of anyone here is really pointing blame at the illegal workers as scapegoats, so much as they are attempting to voice displeasure at a very real problem, which they happen to be in part involved in. You are correct, the government needs to get serious about enforcement, particuarly concerning the business\employer side of the equation. And you are also right that there are real economic reasons that they avoid this. But it is a problem that, for the benefit of the markets as a whole, needs to be addressed.

The argument that California and the US Economy will take a multi-billion dollar hit, and therefore we should keep allowing it, is a fallacious argument because it implies that the current situation is by necessity the way it should be. However, the reality is employment of illegal workers is a detrimental practice that attempts to subvert market forces at the expense of the American taxpayer. In other words, the market is screaming & crying that there is a problem: "Hey employers, you need to raise your wages! Hey consumers, you need to be willing to pay $3 a dozen for eggs, not $1.20!" ... and by ignoring those signals and simply saying, "Hey, screw paying the white guy $7.00 an hour to farm chickens, i'll hire a mexican to do it for $3.00 under the table" all you do is further institutionalize a detrimental practice, and force the balance of the difference on to the taxpayer who has to subsidize basic services for the illegal worker.

Got it?

DriftingByTheStorm wrote:

Got it?

That was pretty hilarious. You spent all that time pretending that you actually had something to tell me. Nowhere in my post did I condone the current situation. Somewhere deep inside your thoughts you must've been imagining me saying, "Things must stay the way they are." I don't know how any sane person could've read my post and come to that conclusion. You are a real piece of work.

unsung wrote:

Illegal aliens are criminals who should have no rights. They broke our laws. Giving them citizenship (amnesty) is a slap in the face to all who have stood in line and all who came through places like Ellis Island legally.

Didn't the people who came through Ellis Island pretty much just show up and they were let in? I highly doubt if you show up at a Mexican Border station and told them that you wanted to move to America and get a job that they would let you in. The guards would probably laugh at you.

SilverSeed wrote:

Um illegals do contribute. Even if they don't have a fake social and pay regular taxes, just living here requires contribution. If you are a consumer you are contributing.

Fortunately I haven't been to an emergency room lately. But did your sister and her children go around and ask for credentials? It would really be disgusting if you just assume brown people are non tax paying illegals. And as I stated above, just living here requires that they pay taxes. Yes we need to fix our ER and medical systems. Are illegals the problem? Only if you buy into the current propoganda about them...

I disagree. You either pay taxes for social services or you don't.

And no she didn't go around asking for credentials..but nice attempt at race baiting. It's not hard to listen when they're in line having to sign in and say that they have no id, no social sec #, etc etc etc. Again...your attempt at race baiting is pathetic. This is not about race...it's about contributing.

I guess you missed my part about being in favor of LEGAL IMMIGRATION.

Claiming racism is pathetic and tells me you have no logical argument.

sponger wrote:

That was pretty hilarious. You spent all that time pretending that you actually had something to tell me. Nowhere in my post did I condone the current situation. Somewhere deep inside your thoughts you must've been imagining me saying, "Things must stay the way they are." I don't know how any sane person could've read my post and come to that conclusion. You are a real piece of work.

WTF is your problem?
I said i agreed with you 3 or 4 times in my post.
I was simply trying to alert you that comments like

"Before pointing a single self-righteous finger at these "law-breaking" illegal immigrants, take a good look at who is hiring them and why no one is doing anything about it."

are antagonistic against people on this thread who are simply concerned about the situation.

I said i AGREE with you, for fucks sake.
You are CORRECT, it is NOT just the fault of illegal immigrants. It is a systemic issue, that is perpetuated by employers offering jobs to these people.

However, just because the short term implications of stopping illegal employment are bad for the economy does NOT mean that we should avoid addressing the issue.

The problem is that the market is sending signals, and we are trying to ignore those signals by burying the problem underneath another problem.

Why am i a "real piece of work" for trying to find common ground with you, and working to point out a further analysis of the situation?

:cool:


BTW

Sponger wrote:

Somewhere deep inside your thoughts you must've been imagining me saying, "Things must stay the way they are." I don't know how any sane person could've read my post and come to that conclusion.

Your post, which YOU may want to go back and reread, reiterates 4 or 5 times the economic losses which california and other states would sustain if we stopped employing illegal immigrants. NOWHERE in your post do you even come close to implying that this is okay in the long run, or that we should do it anyway. I'm pretty sure MOST people here who read that came away thinking, "Okay, sponger thinks that if we stop employing illegal immigrants, the economy will go in to a downturn" ...and that is IT. You offered no solution, or said anything to indicate that you would consider stopping employing illegals. You simply blamed the republicans for shifting the blame (which i actualy AGREE with you on), and talked about how we would lose money if we stopped. So sue me for not reading between the lines things that were not in your text at all.

as I've said before, I know how the problem can be resolved...

Make the "legal", have them pay into the pot via taxes, and we all go on with our happy little lives...