Cuba pays tribute to Che Guevara

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  • Posts: 29,003
    810wmb wrote:
    our country does not support communism...tough crap for them...

    just like you don't support some things, our country doesn't support some things


    and yet washington seems to have no problem dealing with china. why is that you reckon?
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  • Posts: 5,656
    Byrnzie wrote:
    Then you understand nothing about Cuba or Latin American history and politics.

    Concidering that my parent's are Cuban immigrants and I'm in the midst of getting my masters in History focusing on South/Central American history I'm damn sure I know a hell of a lot more than you do. You have no idea what Che did to my parent's country and the people there. Your romantic ideal of Che border on pathetic. Maybe it is you who should crack open a book and learn the real history of South American. Maybe next time it will help prevent you from sounding like an ignorant ass.
    "When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads." - Ron Paul
  • Posts: 29,003
    mammasan wrote:
    Concidering that my parent's are Cuban immigrants and I'm in the midst of getting my masters in History focusing on South/Central American history I'm damn sure I know a hell of a lot more than you do. You have no idea what Che did to my parent's country and the people there. Your romantic ideal of Che border on pathetic. Maybe it is you who should crack open a book and learn the real history of South American. Maybe next time it will help prevent you from sounding like an ignorant ass.


    so can i ask you opinion on whether you think the overthrowing of the batista regime was a good thing at the time. do you think there could have been any possibility the US administration could have worked with the castro government. do you think the US admin was correct in the stance they took? thank you in advance. :)
    hear my name
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  • Posts: 18,095
    mammasan wrote:
    Concidering that my parent's are Cuban immigrants and I'm in the midst of getting my masters in History focusing on South/Central American history I'm damn sure I know a hell of a lot more than you do. You have no idea what Che did to my parent's country and the people there. Your romantic ideal of Che border on pathetic. Maybe it is you who should crack open a book and learn the real history of South American. Maybe next time it will help prevent you from sounding like an ignorant ass.
    sorry byrnzie, ya know I love ya, but this IS funny :D
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  • Posts: 18,095
    mammasan wrote:
    Concidering that my parent's are Cuban immigrants and I'm in the midst of getting my masters in History focusing on South/Central American history I'm damn sure I know a hell of a lot more than you do. You have no idea what Che did to my parent's country and the people there. Your romantic ideal of Che border on pathetic. Maybe it is you who should crack open a book and learn the real history of South American. Maybe next time it will help prevent you from sounding like an ignorant ass.
    are there any completely non biased books you could recommend? I generally keep quiet on opinions of cuba cos it really does depend who you speak to as to whether they were young men with ideals that just can't work in a capitalistic world... or whether they were murdering bastards.

    Either way, I do like the ideas behind the history.
    The Astoria??? Orgazmic!
    Verona??? it's all surmountable
    Dublin 23.08.06 "The beauty of Ireland, right there!"
    Wembley? We all believe!
    Copenhagen?? your light made us stars
    Chicago 07? And love
    What a different life
    Had I not found this love with you
  • Posts: 361
    810wmb wrote:
    and the cubans are so happy about, they get in shitty little boats risking everything to come here


    Dominicans get on shitty little boasts risking everything to get to Puerto Rico every day. And the DR is an independent capitalist country.
  • Posts: 5,656
    catefrances wrote:
    so can i ask you opinion on whether you think the overthrowing of the batista regime was a good thing at the time. do you think there could have been any possibility the US administration could have worked with the castro government. do you think the US admin was correct in the stance they took? thank you in advance. :)

    Yes I believe that the overthrow of the Batista regime was a good thing. Little is said about the Batsita regime in this country but he was just as bad as Castro. The only reason the US tolerated him was because he placed US interest above and beyond the interest of his people.

    When Castro first came toi power President Eisenhower embraced the change in Cuba. Even though Batista was a US puppet Washington DC was growing tired of him. The US government wanted to keep open relations with Castro and his new government. Castro was heavily influenced by Camilo Cienfuegos. Camilo was one of the four leaders of the revolution along side Fidel, his brother Raul, Huber Matos and Che. Camillo was a socialist but he was was a staunch anti-communist. He did not trust the Soviet Union and what he truely wanted for his people was agrarian reform. Cuba's main exports are all agriculturally based and US corporations like United Fruit where strangling small farmers. After the revolution Camilo idea was to reclaim the land from the corporations and to give it back to the people. Che had a different idea and that was to reclaim the land for the government as Che was a communist with close ties to the Soviets.

    United Fruit and like companies started to lobby the US government, along with a strong coalition of Cuban exiles, to severe ties with Cuba and the Castro government. Of course as is custom in US politics the lobbiest and special interest groups won. After relations went sour Che wanted Castro to turn to the Soviets for help. Camilo wanted Castro to stay away from the Soviets and attempt to smooth out relations with the US. Needless to say Camilo died in a mysterious plan crash and Che became Castro's primary advisory and history played itself out.

    One of the factors that greatly anger the US was the reclamation of Cuban soil from US corporations. Camilo wanted it to go to the farmers themselves Che wanted it to go to the government. Che won in that debate. While Che may grab all of the glory he cared little for the people and only cared for power. Many innocent Central/South American died because of his brutality. Many Cubans who did not care for Batista but did not join the revolution where treated in a less than civil manner by Che and his column as they march through Cuba.

    For any aspiring Socialist. If you are looking for hero or idol look to Camilo Cienfuegos. He was a man who truely wanted to restore power to the people and had he not been killed Cuba would pprobably be in better shape than it is today.
    "When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads." - Ron Paul
  • Posts: 29,003
    mammasan wrote:
    Yes I believe that the overthrow of the Batista regime was a good thing. Little is said about the Batsita regime in this country but he was just as bad as Castro. The only reason the US tolerated him was because he placed US interest above and beyond the interest of his people.

    When Castro first came toi power President Eisenhower embraced the change in Cuba. Even though Batista was a US puppet Washington DC was growing tired of him. The US government wanted to keep open relations with Castro and his new government. Castro was heavily influenced by Camilo Cienfuegos. Camilo was one of the four leaders of the revolution along side Fidel, his brother Raul, Huber Matos and Che. Camillo was a socialist but he was was a staunch anti-communist. He did not trust the Soviet Union and what he truely wanted for his people was agrarian reform. Cuba's main exports are all agriculturally based and US corporations like United Fruit where strangling small farmers. After the revolution Camilo idea was to reclaim the land from the corporations and to give it back to the people. Che had a different idea and that was to reclaim the land for the government as Che was a communist with close ties to the Soviets.

    United Fruit and like companies started to lobby the US government, along with a strong coalition of Cuban exiles, to severe ties with Cuba and the Castro government. Of course as is custom in US politics the lobbiest and special interest groups won. After relations went sour Che wanted Castro to turn to the Soviets for help. Camilo wanted Castro to stay away from the Soviets and attempt to smooth out relations with the US. Needless to say Camilo died in a mysterious plan crash and Che became Castro's primary advisory and history played itself out.

    One of the factors that greatly anger the US was the reclamation of Cuban soil from US corporations. Camilo wanted it to go to the farmers themselves Che wanted it to go to the government. Che won in that debate. While Che may grab all of the glory he cared little for the people and only cared for power. Many innocent Central/South American died because of his brutality. Many Cubans who did not care for Batista but did not join the revolution where treated in a less than civil manner by Che and his column as they march through Cuba.

    For any aspiring Socialist. If you are looking for hero or idol look to Camilo Cienfuegos. He was a man who truely wanted to restore power to the people and had he not been killed Cuba would pprobably be in better shape than it is today.


    i feel you only answered my first question. aside from your first sentence you've told me nothing i didnt already know. don't take that as hostile, i was just interested in what you thought, not a history lesson, which i don't need. :)
    hear my name
    take a good look
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  • Posts: 5,656
    Heineken Helen wrote:
    are there any completely non biased books you could recommend? I generally keep quiet on opinions of cuba cos it really does depend who you speak to as to whether they were young men with ideals that just can't work in a capitalistic world... or whether they were murdering bastards.

    Either way, I do like the ideas behind the history.

    There really is no unbaised book. You basically have to read books from both sides and filter out the bullshit. Many of my lessons on Cuban history come from people that lived there. Some where Batista supporters, some where Castro supports, and most where just caught in the middle.

    I believe that the revolution was founded on good intensions. Cuba and it's people have never been a free country. From Spanish Colonialism to US imperialsim to Soviet communism the people of Cuban have always been under someone else's thumb. Castro I believe truely wanted to give Cuba back to it's people but unfortunetly that did not happen. The US government, US corporate interest, Che, Castro himself, and Soviet ambition all played an equal role in destroying what was a worthy cause and a beautiful idea.
    "When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads." - Ron Paul
  • Posts: 5,656
    catefrances wrote:
    i feel you only answered my first question. aside from your first sentence you've told me nothing i didnt already know. don't take that as hostile, i was just interested in what you thought, not a history lesson, which i don't need. :)

    Yes there definitely was a possibility that the US and Castro could have gotten along. At first they did but it wasn't until outside influences presurred Castro and the US to turn away from reconciliation. And as to your last question No I do not agree with the stance the US took. I have never supported US policy towards Cuba. The Eisenhower administration allowed special interest groups and corporations to dictate US policy and the people of Cuba suffered because of it. At the same time I also blame Che and Soviet ambition for taking advantage of the situation not for some humanitarian purpose but for self serving interest.

    Sorry about the history lesson but as you may tell this is an important topic for me that hits very close to home. I tend to get a bit over-enthusiastic when it comes to discussing Cuba.
    "When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads." - Ron Paul
  • Posts: 10,118
    mammasan wrote:
    Concidering that my parent's are Cuban immigrants and I'm in the midst of getting my masters in History focusing on South/Central American history I'm damn sure I know a hell of a lot more than you do. You have no idea what Che did to my parent's country and the people there. Your romantic ideal of Che border on pathetic. Maybe it is you who should crack open a book and learn the real history of South American. Maybe next time it will help prevent you from sounding like an ignorant ass.

    In internet terms, we call this being owned. :D
  • Posts: 10,118
    mammasan wrote:

    Sorry about the history lesson but as you may tell this is an important topic for me that hits very close to home. I tend to get a bit over-enthusiastic when it comes to discussing Cuba.

    what do you think would be in the best interest of the cuba people moving forward. what do you think it will take for the US to lift the embargo?

    would big america corporation involvement be a good thing? i.e luxury hotels popping up all over the beaches..
  • Posts: 5,656
    jlew24asu wrote:
    what do you think would be in the best interest of the cuba people moving forward. what do you think it will take for the US to lift the embargo?

    would big america corporation involvement be a good thing? i.e luxury hotels popping up all over the beaches..

    Obviously a democratic form of government would be the first step. Second would be for all industry to be taken out from under government ownership and given back to the Cuban people where it belongs.

    As for the embargo it will take a whole generation of Cubans passing away. The exile generation has formed a very powerfull lobby and it is they who continue to pressure our government to keep up the embargo. Many of the Cuban-Americans of my generation feel that the embargo is antiquated and utterly useless. Many feel that it is time for the US to change it's policy towards Cuba but unfortunetly we are not as unified or politically motivated as our parents or grandparents generation. It is sad to say but once those generations have based on the pressure will not be there to continue the embargo. The only other way it will be lifted is if the Cuban government, after Castro's death, decides to move to a more democratic system, but chances of that are slim to none.

    US corporate involvment in Cuba would not necessarily be a bad thing as long as the interests of those corporations do not supercede the interests of the Cuban people. If and when Cuba ever does move towards democracy there will need to be some foreign investment in the country in order to update it's infastructure. Cuba does not have the capital nor the resources to do it alone.
    "When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads." - Ron Paul
  • Posts: 29,003
    mammasan wrote:
    Yes there definitely was a possibility that the US and Castro could have gotten along. At first they did but it wasn't until outside influences presurred Castro and the US to turn away from reconciliation. And as to your last question No I do not agree with the stance the US took. I have never supported US policy towards Cuba. The Eisenhower administration allowed special interest groups and corporations to dictate US policy and the people of Cuba suffered because of it. At the same time I also blame Che and Soviet ambition for taking advantage of the situation not for some humanitarian purpose but for self serving interest.

    Sorry about the history lesson but as you may tell this is an important topic for me that hits very close to home. I tend to get a bit over-enthusiastic when it comes to discussing Cuba.

    thank you. tis cool about the history lesson. its to be expected. i am familiar with the cult of che, so can understand your need to lay it out. and as ive previously said, i'm still reconciling myself with that. trying to find some balance amongst both sides of the propaganda.
    hear my name
    take a good look
    this could be the day
    hold my hand
    lie beside me
    i just need to say
  • Posts: 29,003
    jlew24asu wrote:
    what do you think would be in the best interest of the cuba people moving forward. what do you think it will take for the US to lift the embargo?

    would big america corporation involvement be a good thing? i.e luxury hotels popping up all over the beaches..

    i know this wasnt directed at me but hey i can't help myself. :D

    i think its about time for some self determination for the cuban people. if the US wasn't so blinded i believe they'd see dropping the embargo as a good thing. how could it not be? i am in favour of cuban resources staying cuban, as i am with any other countries' resources staying their own. but the injection of capital from whoever(not necessarily US) would help cuba prosper. i know a lot of people find cuba quaint the way she is (even i'm guilty of that in my worst fuck america moments) but she needs help.
    hear my name
    take a good look
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    lie beside me
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  • Posts: 5,656
    catefrances wrote:
    i think its about time for some self determination for the cuban people. if the US wasn't so blinded i believe they'd see dropping the embargo as a good thing. how could it not be? i am in favour of cuban resources staying cuban, as i am with any other countries' resources staying their own. but the injection of capital from whoever(not necessarily US) would help cuba prosper. i know a lot of people find cuba quaint the way she is (even i'm guilty of that in my worst fuck america moments) but she needs help.

    I couldn't agree more. Well said.
    "When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads." - Ron Paul
  • Posts: 361
    mammasan wrote:
    Obviously a democratic form of government would be the first step. Second would be for all industry to be taken out from under government ownership and given back to the Cuban people where it belongs.

    As for the embargo it will take a whole generation of Cubans passing away. The exile generation has formed a very powerfull lobby and it is they who continue to pressure our government to keep up the embargo. Many of the Cuban-Americans of my generation feel that the embargo is antiquated and utterly useless. Many feel that it is time for the US to change it's policy towards Cuba but unfortunetly we are not as unified or politically motivated as our parents or grandparents generation. It is sad to say but once those generations have based on the pressure will not be there to continue the embargo. The only other way it will be lifted is if the Cuban government, after Castro's death, decides to move to a more democratic system, but chances of that are slim to none.

    US corporate involvment in Cuba would not necessarily be a bad thing as long as the interests of those corporations do not supercede the interests of the Cuban people. If and when Cuba ever does move towards democracy there will need to be some foreign investment in the country in order to update it's infastructure. Cuba does not have the capital nor the resources to do it alone.



    I think the most interesting part of Post Castro Cuba is the Cuban exiles that you talk about. Many of them are going to still be arround when the regime changes hands. what is your take on them? I dont trust them on bit and I believe they are no worse than Fidel and his boys. The cuban mafia are a very extream bunch and I would bet that they will try and take over of Cuba once Fidel and his brother are gone. They will surely clash with the Cuban that did not leave the island are sufferd all those years under Fidel and there will be a struggle for all the lands. I know im just speculating but I have been arround many Cuban exiles and I dont trust them one bit.
  • Posts: 5,656
    TheVoiceInside wrote:
    I think the most interesting part of Post Castro Cuba is the Cuan exiles that you talk about. Many of them are going to still be arround when the regime changes hands. what is your take on them? I dont trust them on bit and I believe they are no worse than Fidel and his boys. The cuban mafia are a very extream bunch and I would bet that they will try and take over of Cuba once Fidel and his brother are gone. They will surely clash with the Cuban that did not leave the island are sufferd all those years under Fidel and there will be a struggle for all the lands. I know im just speculating but I have been arround many Cuban exiles and I dont trust them one bit.

    There is a Cuban exile organization that has a government in waiting here in the states ready to take over if the Catsro regime where to fall. I find this to be unacceptable and agree with you that many of the exile groups with aspiration to seize power are probably no better than Castro himself. If the Cuban government decides to move towards democracy it needs to done from within and without undo foreign pressure and intervention. Once to move is made and a new government is established then foreign aid can come into play to help finance the rebuilding of Cuba.
    "When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads." - Ron Paul
  • Posts: 361
    mammasan wrote:
    There is a Cuban exile organization that has a government in waiting here in the states ready to take over if the Catsro regime where to fall. I find this to be unacceptable and agree with you that many of the exile groups with aspiration to seize power are probably no better than Castro himself. If the Cuban government decides to move towards democracy it needs to done from within and without undo foreign pressure and intervention. Once to move is made and a new government is established then foreign aid can come into play to help finance the rebuilding of Cuba.



    And Im afraid that there will be a huge power struggle because of this group. I hope that im wrong. We need a free Cuba, for me taliking about Cuba is like talking about a cousin that i cant wait to finaly spend some time with him. I very much enjoy Cuban culture and its people. Its a dam shame.
  • Seattle Posts: 7,177
    TheVoiceInside wrote:
    And Im afraid that there will be a huge power struggle because of this group. I hope that im wrong. We need a free Cuba, for me taliking about Cuba is like talking about a cousin that i cant wait to finaly spend some time with him. I very much enjoy Cuban culture and its people. Its a dam shame.

    Well said. I look forward to Cuban self-determination as well. The US embargo is silly and has been futile. So has Castro's dictatorship. As a smoker of Cuban cigars, I also look forward to sending my dollars directly to Cuba.
    "I'll use the magic word - let's just shut the fuck up, please." EV, 04/13/08

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