Why Do Athiests

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  • onelongsong
    onelongsong Posts: 3,517
    Jeanie wrote:
    hehe!! :D Ah ya big girl!!! ;):D

    carpaccio is delicious!! as is stinky cheese!!! :D

    YOU'RE A GIRLY!
  • onelongsong
    onelongsong Posts: 3,517
    Jeanie wrote:
    hmmm......I have an overwhelming urge to be naughty here, BUT I'll be good and say nothing!!! :D

    SSSSSSHHHHHHHHHHHH
  • catefrances
    catefrances Posts: 29,003
    onelongsong wrote:
    i don't know. although i'd respect your wishes and not pray out loud; i don't think you'd deny me my comfort. if you feel you are not worthy of love; just say so. that is my way of showing love; in that type of situation that is.

    did i say i was not worthy of love? yes sure do whatever floats your boat or gives you comfort. but DO NOT be coming to me and telling me you felt the need to pray for me so you could find comfort. it gives me no comfort, therefore i don't want to know. i don't need to know.
    and just curiously, why would you tell someone you prayed for them anyway?
    hear my name
    take a good look
    this could be the day
    hold my hand
    lie beside me
    i just need to say
  • Jeanie
    Jeanie Posts: 9,446
    onelongsong wrote:
    YOU'RE A GIRLY!

    :D hehe!! Yes I am!!! :D That's a good thing right? ;):p:D
    NOPE!!!

    *~You're IT Bert!~*

    Hold on to the thread
    The currents will shift
  • Jeanie
    Jeanie Posts: 9,446
    onelongsong wrote:
    SSSSSSHHHHHHHHHHHH

    :o Ok!! But um.........ssssshhhhh? Are you sure you mean ssshhhhh? ;):p:D
    NOPE!!!

    *~You're IT Bert!~*

    Hold on to the thread
    The currents will shift
  • hippiemom
    hippiemom Posts: 3,326
    Jeanie wrote:
    Hi mom. :)

    When people are ill and having treatment, more than just the person suffering the illness are affected. And in a lot of cases those around the sick person are useless in all reality. If they could feel useful or be comforted by praying for the sick person, is this really such a bad thing?
    I mean, people going on huge drinking benders and doing everything in their power to hide their heads in the sand when I get sick, are clearly of no use to me, but I can understand why they do it. Just as I can understand why people need to pray.
    No, no, no, that's not what I was saying. I should have clarified ... there is no evidence whatsoever that the prayers of others do anything at all for the person who is sick. I don't concern myself much with what others do, so if their prayers are helping them, they should by all means have at it. I don't care if others pray for me, if it makes them happy, but they should be clear that they're doing it for themselves and not for me. It's sort of like if someone were to give me a violin for my birthday ... ok, this is lovely, but you know I don't play the violin, so why are you giving this to me? It's just odd and a bit awkward when people tell me they're doing it. It puts me in the position of having to be either rude or insincere, which I quite dislike.

    It's also been my experience that the people who tell me they are praying for me (not necessarily here, I'm thinking more of my 3-D life) are the ones who'd be most likely to freak out if a Wiccan told them that they were going to light a candle to the goddess and perform a spell for them ... which is, after all, only the Wiccan form of prayer. One of my bosses has told me several times that she's going to pray for me whether I like it or not, and I know she'd go through the roof if someone told her they were going to cast spells for her good health whether she liked it or not. That sort of arrogance is annoying.
    "Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." ~ MLK, 1963
  • hippiemom
    hippiemom Posts: 3,326
    onelongsong wrote:
    the problems with studies is the controls. they don't leave room for the unexplained. i can also set my controls to get the result i'm looking for. every day i see a commercial for some attorney with a class action lawsuit looking for people that were given medications and died or were seriously injured by a medication. thier STUDIES and testing showed no harmful effects. the studies were obviously slanted.
    i have a client that ate only my buffalo meat (in place of other meats) for 10 months now. he's cured of lung cancer and i can write that study several ways. i can write it so it looks like it was the buffalo meat. i can also write it to show it was the change in diet. it could also be the clean air of the mountains (he moved here from CA).

    get the idea?
    Your "study" of one person isn't a study at all, it's an anecdote. Scientific studies of the sort that are published in peer-reviewed professional journals do indeed have controls, and study large groups over long periods.
    "Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." ~ MLK, 1963
  • hippiemom
    hippiemom Posts: 3,326
    onelongsong wrote:
    similar cases were discussed in the american medical journal. i believe december 2005. doctors are prescribing patients to eat buffalo meat all over the country. researchers are trying to isolate the compound that destroys the cancer. thanks to the chemical companies; you cannot claim a cure until you can precisely measure dosage. that's the law. so until the compound is isolated; and an exact dosage can be established; millions will die from cancer. this is why natural products cannot be advertised and medicines.
    Surely you don't think this is a bad thing? You can't claim a cure until you can PROVE that it's a CURE ... that sounds quite reasonable to me. Without that requirement, anyone could gather a bit of anecdotal evidence about anything at all and start marketing it as a cure, and desperate dying people would waste their money on it. There is enough of that going on already, for everything from weight loss aids to miracle cancer cures ... anything that can be done to prevent more of it is a good thing.

    I don't deny that pharmaceutical companies benefit from these rules, but there are other good reasons to have the rules in place.
    "Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." ~ MLK, 1963
  • cornnifer
    cornnifer Posts: 2,130
    soulsinging wrote:
    he was a TRUE christian. maybe you and deadnothing are too... which is why i challenge YOU to act like mlk and start shaking up your fellows out of their hatred and oppression.

    i DO, and you know it damn well. That doesn't mean i am going to sit back and let non-christians make broad brushstroke generalizations about Christians and Christianity and not call THEM on it as well.
    Furthermore, it is one thing for Christians such as MLK or myself to call Christians on some of their behavior. It is something altogether different for a non-Christian to point out shortcomings of Christians in an attempt to discredit their faith. i have no problems with other Christians pointing it out to me when i may be stumbling in my "Christian walk", i have a bit of a problem with non-Christians doing it and making prejudicial judgements of a faith they don't share and know very little about. Its different.
    "When all your friends and sedatives mean well but make it worse... better find yourself a place to level out."
  • lucylespian
    lucylespian Posts: 2,403
    hippiemom wrote:
    Your "study" of one person isn't a study at all, it's an anecdote. Scientific studies of the sort that are published in peer-reviewed professional journals do indeed have controls, and study large groups over long periods.

    Correct !!!!!!!!!!

    Practitioners who sell phoney cures to people with cancer are conscienceless parasites preying on desperation !!!!!!!!
    Music is not a competetion.
  • cornnifer
    cornnifer Posts: 2,130
    hippiemom wrote:
    No, no, no, that's not what I was saying. I should have clarified ... there is no evidence whatsoever that the prayers of others do anything at all for the person who is sick. I don't concern myself much with what others do, so if their prayers are helping them, they should by all means have at it. I don't care if others pray for me, if it makes them happy, but they should be clear that they're doing it for themselves and not for me. It's sort of like if someone were to give me a violin for my birthday ... ok, this is lovely, but you know I don't play the violin, so why are you giving this to me? It's just odd and a bit awkward when people tell me they're doing it. It puts me in the position of having to be either rude or insincere, which I quite dislike.

    It's also been my experience that the people who tell me they are praying for me (not necessarily here, I'm thinking more of my 3-D life) are the ones who'd be most likely to freak out if a Wiccan told them that they were going to light a candle to the goddess and perform a spell for them ... which is, after all, only the Wiccan form of prayer. One of my bosses has told me several times that she's going to pray for me whether I like it or not, and I know she'd go through the roof if someone told her they were going to cast spells for her good health whether she liked it or not. That sort of arrogance is annoying.

    Here's the thing HM. Isn't there something to considering the source? What i mean is that if a person of faith says they are praying for you, shouldn't you be flattered by it knowing that it is something they believe in even if you don't share that belief? At least, not be offended by it? I'm not talking about praying for the salvation of your soul. i'm talking about praying for someone in times of hardship, despair or need. Praying that things go well in someones job interview, or that a long road trip is safe, or general health and happiness. Shit like that. Personally i would have no problem with a Wiccan lighting candles for me. i don't share that belief, but would consider it sincere coming from one who does and be flattered and thankful for it. i would be touched by it actually. Am i making sense?
    i have prayed for you on more than one occasion, BTW, knowing you don't share my faith. It wasn't to make me feel good about myself. It has always been sincere. Please know that it is such and not be offended by it :)
    "When all your friends and sedatives mean well but make it worse... better find yourself a place to level out."
  • prism
    prism Posts: 2,440
    I'm agnostic and for the most part i don't care what people chose to believe in. my problem is when Christians take it upon themselves to tell me what i can and can not do. this is just but one real example of religious Jesus freaks sticking their noses into my business:

    from the day i found out that my ex and myself were going to have a baby girl we picked out her name because a particular song came on the car radio as we were going through the baby-name book. okay so, it's a beautiful name and it's the only one that we could both agree on. however the meaning of her name is; a witch. (she's had her moments where she's lived up to it but that's besides the point ;) ) actually it's a very old name and she was the Celtic goddess of the night sky....but then the Christians came along and the meaning got morphed into meaning a witch...because goddesses don't exist :rolleyes:

    so now it's months later and 3 days after I have given birth by c-section to the cutest thing that has ever squirmed. she's preemie, she's tiny and she's down the hall in the NICU. I am in my hospital bed, in pain, on moraphine and my hormones are fucking bouncing all over the place. so into my hospital room come this husband and wife couple that i've never seen or met before. they introduced themselves as friends of my sister. the woman proceeeds to sit on my hospital bed and proceeds to tell me and my baby daddy that we have to change our daughter's name because if we don't change it we are damning our child. from there the conversation went like this

    me: "WHAT?"

    wacko woman: "you do KNOW what her name means don't you?"

    me and the baby daddy: "yes, of course we know what it means"

    wacko woman: "then you know you must change it to something more Christian"

    me and the baby daddy: "uhhh, no we don't"

    the baby daddy "look lady, Gladys or Gertrude might be great Christian names for all i know or care but it doesn't mean we're going to change our daughter's name to that"

    wacko woman: "but by naming her ______ you're damning that child to HELL! you obviously don't love that baby!"

    me: "who the fuck are you to come in here and tell me what I can and cannot name my child? it's none of your fucking business at all. you really need to get away from me....NOW"

    as the baby daddy was ushering them out of the room the husband pipes up: "we're going to pray for that baby's soul. and we're going to pray for you two to see the error of your sinful ways"

    me: "save it...we don't give a flying fuck!"

    the baby daddy shut the door behind them and I said to him "dude, i think this moraphine is making me hallucinate. is that possible?"

    then he started laughing. he said "no, you're definitely not hallucinating. unfortunately those people were really here and really said that bullshit"


    I never set eyes on those people before or since. as for my little witch? she works 2 jobs and goes to school and is on a list to get into nursing school. :) i'm also sure that the prayers of a couple of strange wack jobs had nothing to do with it.
    *~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
    angels share laughter
    *~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
  • cornnifer
    cornnifer Posts: 2,130
    prism wrote:
    I'm agnostic and for the most part i don't care what people chose to believe in. my problem is when Christians take it upon themselves to tell me what i can and can not do. this is just but one real example of religious Jesus freaks sticking their noses into my business:

    from the day i found out that my ex and myself were going to have a baby girl we picked out her name because a particular song came on the car radio as we were going through the baby-name book. okay so, it's a beautiful name and it's the only one that we could both agree on. however the meaning of her name is; a witch. (she's had her moments where she's lived up to it but that's besides the point ;) ) actually it's a very old name and she was the Celtic goddess of the night sky....but then the Christians came along and the meaning got morphed into meaning a witch...because goddesses don't exist :rolleyes:

    so now it's months later and 3 days after I have given birth by c-section to the cutest thing that has ever squirmed. she's preemie, she's tiny and she's down the hall in the NICU. I am in my hospital bed, in pain, on moraphine and my hormones are fucking bouncing all over the place. so into my hospital room come this husband and wife couple that i've never seen or met before. they introduced themselves as friends of my sister. the woman proceeeds to sit on my hospital bed and proceeds to tell me and my baby daddy that we have to change our daughter's name because if we don't change it we are damning our child. from there the conversation went like this

    me: "WHAT?"

    wacko woman: "you do KNOW what her name means don't you?"

    me and the baby daddy: "yes, of course we know what it means"

    wacko woman: "then you know you must change it to something more Christian"

    me and the baby daddy: "uhhh, no we don't"

    the baby daddy "look lady, Gladys or Gertrude might be great Christian names for all i know or care but it doesn't mean we're going to change our daughter's name to that"

    wacko woman: "but by naming her ______ you're damning that child to HELL! you obviously don't love that baby!"

    me: "who the fuck are you to come in here and tell me what I can and cannot name my child? it's none of your fucking business at all. you really need to get away from me....NOW"

    as the baby daddy was ushering them out of the room the husband pipes up: "we're going to pray for that baby's soul. and we're going to pray for you two to see the error of your sinful ways"

    me: "save it...we don't give a flying fuck!"

    the baby daddy shut the door behind them and I said to him "dude, i think this moraphine is making me hallucinate. is that possible?"

    then he started laughing. he said "no, you're definitely not hallucinating. unfortunately those people were really here and really said that bullshit"


    I never set eyes on those people before or since. as for my little witch? she works 2 jobs and goes to school and is on a list to get into nursing school. :) i'm also sure that the prayers of a couple of strange wack jobs had nothing to do with it.
    funny story. People like that kill me.
    i am of Christian faith. i have three sons:
    Langston, as in Hughes
    Holden, as in Caufield
    and Townshend, as in... well... Pete :)

    Biblical names are cliche.
    "When all your friends and sedatives mean well but make it worse... better find yourself a place to level out."
  • hippiemom
    hippiemom Posts: 3,326
    cornnifer wrote:
    Here's the thing HM. Isn't there something to considering the source? What i mean is that if a person of faith says they are praying for you, shouldn't you be flattered by it knowing that it is something they believe in even if you don't share that belief? At least, not be offended by it? I'm not talking about praying for the salvation of your soul. i'm talking about praying for someone in times of hardship, despair or need. Praying that things go well in someones job interview, or that a long road trip is safe, or general health and happiness. Shit like that. Personally i would have no problem with a Wiccan lighting candles for me. i don't share that belief, but would consider it sincere coming from one who does and be flattered and thankful for it. i would be touched by it actually. Am i making sense?
    i have prayed for you on more than one occasion, BTW, knowing you don't share my faith. It wasn't to make me feel good about myself. It has always been sincere. Please know that it is such and not be offended by it :)
    I'm not offended by it, it's just awkward when someone is standing there telling me that they've included me in their prayer circle and they're obviously waiting for some sort of response from me ... my only choice is to be rude, which I'm not capable of doing, or to offer my insincere thanks, which I don't like having to do. It's not so much the praying that bothers me as the putting me on the spot. You telling me that you've prayed for me doesn't put me in an uncomfortable situation, since you're not standing here with an expectant look on your face, waiting for me to say something.

    Also, it's easier to take from some people than others. It's the arrogance that ticks me off ... the "I'm praying for you whether you like it or not," or people that I know would go absolutely bonkers if anyone suggested taking them to some type of Wiccan or Muslim healing ceremony, yet they have no qualms whatsoever about calling me and trying to talk me into going to see a faith healer. I know that you are not that type of person, and I'm reasonably certain that if I asked you in no uncertain terms to not pray for me anymore, that you would honor my request. I know plenty of people like that in my day to day life too, but I know enough of the other kind that it's gotten on my nerves and given me a bit of a bad attitude towards the whole thing.
    "Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." ~ MLK, 1963
  • cornnifer
    cornnifer Posts: 2,130
    hippiemom wrote:

    I know that you are not that type of person, and I'm reasonably certain that if I asked you in no uncertain terms to not pray for me anymore, that you would honor my request. quote]

    Honestly, i'd probably still do it :) . I just wouldn't tell you about it as a fair compromise. Again i don't do it for personal gratification or expectations of an emotional "thank you".
    "When all your friends and sedatives mean well but make it worse... better find yourself a place to level out."
  • catefrances
    catefrances Posts: 29,003
    cornnifer wrote:
    Honestly, i'd probably still do it :) . I just wouldn't tell you about it as a fair compromise. Again i don't do it for personal gratification or expectations of an emotional "thank you".

    how is doing something someone has asked you not to do a compromise, irrelevant of whether they know or not?
    hear my name
    take a good look
    this could be the day
    hold my hand
    lie beside me
    i just need to say
  • lucylespian
    lucylespian Posts: 2,403
    cornnifer wrote:
    hippiemom wrote:

    I know that you are not that type of person, and I'm reasonably certain that if I asked you in no uncertain terms to not pray for me anymore, that you would honor my request. quote]

    Honestly, i'd probably still do it :) . I just wouldn't tell you about it as a fair compromise. Again i don't do it for personal gratification or expectations of an emotional "thank you".

    Which is exactly the sort of blind arrogance that gets fair up an honest athiests nose.

    And you do do it for smug personal gratification, cos you believe that it makes you a better person. Well news flash bud, it makes you deceitful and patronising.
    Music is not a competetion.
  • cornnifer
    cornnifer Posts: 2,130
    lucylespian wrote:
    cornnifer wrote:

    Which is exactly the sort of blind arrogance that gets fair up an honest athiests nose.

    And you do do it for smug personal gratification, cos you believe that it makes you a better person. Well news flash bud, it makes you deceitful and patronising.

    Deceitful and patronising?! i am not easily offended but i have to say i am right now. You know NOTHING about me or my motivations. i just got through saying i don't do it for personal gratification. i don't think it makes me a better person. i am in no way arrogant.
    leave me alone.
    "When all your friends and sedatives mean well but make it worse... better find yourself a place to level out."
  • hippiemom
    hippiemom Posts: 3,326
    cornnifer wrote:
    Honestly, i'd probably still do it :) . I just wouldn't tell you about it as a fair compromise. Again i don't do it for personal gratification or expectations of an emotional "thank you".
    I'm not going to tell you to stop, because it doesn't matter to me one way or another, but I do think you should re-think your policy in general.

    I know a couple of Wiccans, and they have a very strict code of ethics regarding performing any type of spell or even doing a meditation on behalf of another person without getting their permission first. They believe that if a person denies them permission, they need to respect that person's path. They also believe in reincarnation and are concerned that, as an example, a person might need to die at a young age in this life to progress to their next level of development, and that they have no right to interfere with that process, regardless of how much they might want to. I don't share any of their beliefs, but this strikes me as a very respectful way to go about things, and while I'm not offended by prayers I can easily see why someone who believes as they do would consider them to be almost an assault.

    I think it's pretty easy to say "I'll pray for you, unless you'd rather I didn't." :)
    "Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." ~ MLK, 1963
  • soulsinging
    soulsinging Posts: 13,202
    Cosmo wrote:
    ...
    Okay... don't take this the wrong way, but... I gotta call 'Bullshit' on this one. If it were true... it would truely qualify as a miracle... and at LEAST, be newsworthy. There would be SOME written record available for public... if not, you are letting millions of people worldwide, die from cancer. It the cure for cancer is in the water from Lourdes... then, cancer victims need it.
    I do voluenteer work with both the Avon Walk (Los Angeles/Beaches) and the Susan G. Komen Foundation and there are thousands of mothers, daughters, sisters, aunts, nieces, cousins, friends and co-workers that suffer from and die from Breast Cancer in America alone. And I'm sure that 99.99999% of them get prayers from 99.9999999% of their friends and families... yet, they die. if ONE on them survived from prayer alone... not the chemo and mastectomies and other medical treatments... we would have heard from her.
    Sorry.

    that's a good point... if all that it takes is water from the lorudes shrine from onelongsong to cure cancer... what the fuck is he doing here? he should be out there healing people like jesus did!

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