Church Minister jailed for life - 35 counts of abuse including rape

2

Comments

  • dkst0426
    dkst0426 Posts: 523
    even flow? wrote:
    Must have been a glitch in the perfection of god that it allows such mistakes to just go unpunished.
    How did it go unpunished? Is this topic not ABOUT the punishment? Anybody who would commit such acts has to live with their own tormented soul. That is punishment as well.
  • dkst0426
    dkst0426 Posts: 523
    know1 wrote:
    Or maybe a glitch to allow people the free will to not believe in God at all...
    Nope--more like an act of love from a God who could easily be a puppetmaster.
  • dunkman
    dunkman Posts: 19,646
    VictoryGin wrote:
    Of course! He was the black one and so was naturally subjugated.

    was he in the Madonna video... :cool:
    oh scary... 40000 morbidly obese christians wearing fanny packs invading europe is probably the least scariest thing since I watched an edited version of The Care Bears movie in an extremely brightly lit cinema.
  • Cosmo
    Cosmo Posts: 12,225
    dkst0426 wrote:
    If a convicted murderer or rapist, in his or her time while in prison, devotes their life to accepting Christ and turning over a new leaf and studying the Bible and putting into practice what he's learned, he's doing a lot more than a lot of people who sit in church pews on any given Sunday.


    Yes, he was a member of the Catholic church, but his actions certainly spoke far louder than his words and actions. On the flip side, it IS scary to me as well that for all I know, there's a chance he's in heaven. Extremely scary.

    But if he did truly and earnestly repent out of contrition and love rather than guilt and fear of his fate, well..........that's why I'm not God.
    ...
    Still... you see my point, right?
    I mean if the victim of this murderer doesn't fit the criteria set by the church... they end up in Hell. Is that what God deems as 'Just or Fair'? Like, if you think about it... O.J.Simpson has time to repent and get in, but Nicole and Ron do not. Why should O.J. get the chance and not the persons he murdered (and we all know he did it... he was aquitted, not innocent)?
    And as for Hitler... he never technically killed anyone... his soldiers did. He actually believed he was helping rid the God Fearing Europeans of the Jewish scourge that had killed his Savior.
    This is why i have all of these questions. I don't want my God to be held to the restrictions of Man's religions. I am hoping that He will judge me on the character of my being and my acts, rather than the doctrine of an organized tax-exempt institution.
    And don't get me wrong... I believe in the whole forgiveness thing. But, I also believe in personal accountability for your actions. We all know it is wrong to kill... religious beliefs aside... yet, we do it all the time. I believe we should be held accountable for our decisions and our actions. Certain religions let you get away with it, as long as you follow the right procedures and believe in them.
    Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
    Hail, Hail!!!
  • know1
    know1 Posts: 6,801
    dkst0426 wrote:
    Nope--more like an act of love from a God who could easily be a puppetmaster.

    I know - that was my point.
    The only people we should try to get even with...
    ...are those who've helped us.

    Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
  • even flow?
    even flow? Posts: 8,066
    dkst0426 wrote:
    How did it go unpunished? Is this topic not ABOUT the punishment? Anybody who would commit such acts has to live with their own tormented soul. That is punishment as well.


    Glad you believe that. Wouldn't his soul (since he was a priest) be filled with goodness that he should have known what he was doing was only good for the internet. Maybe that is what god really wanted him to do and you and I are not in tune with that crazy thing some refer to as god.

    If the guy strings himself up. He may be tormented by his soul. If not. He must have enjoyed destroying some young lives.

    Who would want to be in a heaven with that. If I was one of those kids fathers and got to heaven. I would search that prick out and kill his soul. Just to add more punishment to his life in paradise.
    You've changed your place in this world!
  • know1
    know1 Posts: 6,801
    How sad to only think in terms of punishment, revenge and a human's perception of fairness....
    The only people we should try to get even with...
    ...are those who've helped us.

    Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
  • dkst0426
    dkst0426 Posts: 523
    Cosmo, I want to go on record as saying that I really appreciate how you are framing your posts. I can take criticism/debunking of Christianity, it just gets old when it's worded the way it tends to be worded. In your case, you are asking some very pointed questions, and these are questions all Christians wrestle with as part of their relationship with Christ. So, again, thank you and God bless you.

    Now, on to your post........
    Cosmo wrote:
    Still... you see my point, right?
    I mean if the victim of this murderer doesn't fit the criteria set by the church... they end up in Hell. Is that what God deems as 'Just or Fair'? Like, if you think about it... O.J.Simpson has time to repent and get in, but Nicole and Ron do not. Why should O.J. get the chance and not the persons he murdered (and we all know he did it... he was aquitted, not innocent)?
    And as for Hitler... he never technically killed anyone... his soldiers did. He actually believed he was helping rid the God Fearing Europeans of the Jewish scourge that had killed his Savior.
    I do see your point(s). As I said (and by no means is this meant as a cop-out from trying to come up with some deep theological answer), these are points/questions many Christians struggle with. Besides the examples you bring up, there are questions about infant deaths, people who never had the chance to hear about God (as opposed to people who have and reject Him), etc. The best answer I can give you right now (I just woke up after a really late night) is that we are all part of a fallen race, and mankind as a whole lives in a state of sin, no matter how hard we try to do good things to make it right--hence my (and a lot of other Christians') opposition to a works-based model of salvation. I will gladly revisit this later when I have more time to think about it if you'd like.
    This is why i have all of these questions. I don't want my God to be held to the restrictions of Man's religions. I am hoping that He will judge me on the character of my being and my acts, rather than the doctrine of an organized tax-exempt institution.
    And don't get me wrong... I believe in the whole forgiveness thing. But, I also believe in personal accountability for your actions. We all know it is wrong to kill... religious beliefs aside... yet, we do it all the time. I believe we should be held accountable for our decisions and our actions. Certain religions let you get away with it, as long as you follow the right procedures and believe in them.
    God isn't limited to the restrictions of man. That's not His nature. However, it is very much in our own human nature to try and put "God in a box" (so to say).

    We believe in accountability for our actions, too. Saying "Jesus, please save me" one time and accepting the gift of salvation comes with the caveat that our lives from that point on are meant to be changed lives hopefully changing others. There is a verse in Scripture that reads "faith without works" is dead, and yes, that is in opposition to a works-based salvation. Those "certain religions" you speak of are elements that have begun to creep into "postmodern" Christianity, and it's yet another thing for Christians to struggle with today.

    Bottom line: we WILL be judged for the character of our being and our actions. And how we respond to Christ's sacrifice for our salvation.

    I'm sorry if that was too preachy for some of you. That was a direct (albeit public) response to Cosmo, and if anyone would like to break down that response, you're of course free to do so. All I can ask is that you do so with a spirit of respect, as I have tried to be gracious.
  • Jammin909
    Jammin909 Posts: 888
    This "born again" type of Christians scare the shit out of me. I think the there should be a limit to forgiveness. Yeah using the lord names in vien and what not should be forgiven, but the murderers and rapists should be doomed to hell.

    Another example is Bush. I sure as hell dont want to go to heaven if hes going to be there. People hide behind religion far too often which is why so many people have a negative view of it.
    The less you know, the more you believe.
  • Cosmo
    Cosmo Posts: 12,225
    know1 wrote:
    How sad to only think in terms of punishment, revenge and a human's perception of fairness....
    ...
    Ummm... I can't speak for everyone... but, the reason is... because I am human. I am not God, so i don't have God's perspective... I'm hoping He'll set me straight when i finally get to meet Him.
    Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
    Hail, Hail!!!
  • dkst0426
    dkst0426 Posts: 523
    even flow? wrote:
    Glad you believe that. Wouldn't his soul (since he was a priest) be filled with goodness that he should have known what he was doing was only good for the internet. Maybe that is what god really wanted him to do and you and I are not in tune with that crazy thing some refer to as god.

    If the guy strings himself up. He may be tormented by his soul. If not. He must have enjoyed destroying some young lives.
    If that ends up being the case, then his soul certainly was not filled with goodness (the definition of which I think we CAN agree upon). This may not be a good enough answer, but I will offer it up anyway: priests are human, not divine. Yes, there are different (higher) standards for them, but to expect that just because they wear a clerical collar, they are somehow immune to the numerous things which trip all of us up as humans, is an expectation even the most devout and God-fearing of priests would have trouble meeting.
    Who would want to be in a heaven with that. If I was one of those kids fathers and got to heaven. I would search that prick out and kill his soul. Just to add more punishment to his life in paradise.
    Honestly, if I was one of those children's fathers, I'd be inclined to agree with you. Once again, this exemplifies our very human limits of grace and forgiveness. I'd like to think that IF someone like this ended up in heaven as I hope I myself will, I'd be able to understand how and why he's there.

    I hope I'm not sounding smug. It's not intended to be. Just answering from my Christian perspective.
  • surferdude
    surferdude Posts: 2,057
    dkst0426 wrote:
    Cosmo, I want to go on record as saying that I really appreciate how you are framing your posts. I can take criticism/debunking of Christianity, it just gets old when it's worded the way it tends to be worded. In your case, you are asking some very pointed questions, and these are questions all Christians wrestle with as part of their relationship with Christ. So, again, thank you and God bless you.
    Cosmo - I'd like to ad to this. You've questioned and criticised respectfully. Thank you.

    I have to admit I don't know how all the details work regarding the forgiveness thing. But I do trust in God that it works as it should. I try notto get too caught up in argueing over things I don't understand not can find answers to. I think my time and energy is better spent trying to become the person I should be.
    “One good thing about music,
    when it hits you, you feel to pain.
    So brutalize me with music.”
    ~ Bob Marley
  • dkst0426
    dkst0426 Posts: 523
    Jammin909 wrote:
    This "born again" type of Christians scare the shit out of me. I think the there should be a limit to forgiveness. Yeah using the lord names in vien and what not should be forgiven, but the murderers and rapists should be doomed to hell.
    You know what I'd like to see? An island picked out in the middle of nowhere way out in the ocean, preferably surrounded by shark-infested waters. A wall of solid concrete about 3 feet thick and 50 feet high with razor-sharp teeth lining the top. Airlift any newly-convicted murderers, rapists, serial killers, child molestors, and people who commit violent crime against elderly victims out there quarterly. Drop a crate of month's supply of food and water each time there's a new drop of inmates. Let them have at it.

    I know, I know, not very Christlike of me.
    Another example is Bush. I sure as hell dont want to go to heaven if hes going to be there. People hide behind religion far too often which is why so many people have a negative view of it.
    I don't see the connection :confused:
  • know1
    know1 Posts: 6,801
    Jammin909 wrote:
    Another example is Bush. I sure as hell dont want to go to heaven if hes going to be there. People hide behind religion far too often which is why so many people have a negative view of it.

    Do people really think of heaven as some big cocktail party where there are people that you like and those you dislike that you're sitting around chatting with? Is it possible heaven might be a level of consciousness and a completely different experience that our human brains and experiences cannot fathom? I hope so. What's the point of heaven if it's just like earth?
    The only people we should try to get even with...
    ...are those who've helped us.

    Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
  • Cosmo
    Cosmo Posts: 12,225
    dkst0426 wrote:
    Cosmo, I want to go on record as saying that I really appreciate how you are framing your posts. I can take criticism/debunking of Christianity, it just gets old when it's worded the way it tends to be worded. In your case, you are asking some very pointed questions, and these are questions all Christians wrestle with as part of their relationship with Christ. So, again, thank you and God bless you.

    Now, on to your post........

    I do see your point(s). As I said (and by no means is this meant as a cop-out from trying to come up with some deep theological answer), these are points/questions many Christians struggle with. Besides the examples you bring up, there are questions about infant deaths, people who never had the chance to hear about God (as opposed to people who have and reject Him), etc. The best answer I can give you right now (I just woke up after a really late night) is that we are all part of a fallen race, and mankind as a whole lives in a state of sin, no matter how hard we try to do good things to make it right--hence my (and a lot of other Christians') opposition to a works-based model of salvation. I will gladly revisit this later when I have more time to think about it if you'd like.


    God isn't limited to the restrictions of man. That's not His nature. However, it is very much in our own human nature to try and put "God in a box" (so to say).

    We believe in accountability for our actions, too. Saying "Jesus, please save me" one time and accepting the gift of salvation comes with the caveat that our lives from that point on are meant to be changed lives hopefully changing others. There is a verse in Scripture that reads "faith without works" is dead, and yes, that is in opposition to a works-based salvation. Those "certain religions" you speak of are elements that have begun to creep into "postmodern" Christianity, and it's yet another thing for Christians to struggle with today.

    Bottom line: we WILL be judged for the character of our being and our actions. And how we respond to Christ's sacrifice for our salvation.

    I'm sorry if that was too preachy for some of you. That was a direct (albeit public) response to Cosmo, and if anyone would like to break down that response, you're of course free to do so. All I can ask is that you do so with a spirit of respect, as I have tried to be gracious.
    ...
    Yeah... you know, I have no problem with people's personal religious beliefs. I problem I see is when they to tell me that their belief in my truth. It ain't. Whether you call your God, God or Allah or Johovah or Vishnu or McCready... I feel it is good. I believe that faith and hope gets people through tough times and I often wish that I could do that.
    Right now, my greatest concern is this move to legislate and educate based upon one religion. This is still America and we still have the freedom of religion, which includes freedom from religion. I find this movement quite disturbing.
    And as for Jesus... I believe that we should all read His Sermon from the mount again and take it to heart. I try more to follow His teachings, than to just simply allow Him to take away all my misgivings for me. I will stand accountable for all of my personal sins because I chose to make them. I think i do Jesus a better service by trying to follow His lead, rather than laying all of my wrongdoings upon His shoulders.
    ...
    and yeah... I like this discussion. It isn't preachy... just speak from your heart and I'll listen. Shout out orders and I'll go away.
    peace...
    Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
    Hail, Hail!!!
  • even flow?
    even flow? Posts: 8,066
    know1 wrote:
    How sad to only think in terms of punishment, revenge and a human's perception of fairness....


    Got my eye for an eye attitude in catholic school by reading the bible. Have you missed that part in your studies?
    You've changed your place in this world!
  • surferdude
    surferdude Posts: 2,057
    even flow? wrote:
    Got my eye for an eye attitude in catholic school by reading the bible. Have you missed that part in your studies?
    I think you should have finished reading the book. Coles notes versions may have got you through school but that's a sad way to go through life.
    “One good thing about music,
    when it hits you, you feel to pain.
    So brutalize me with music.”
    ~ Bob Marley
  • even flow?
    even flow? Posts: 8,066
    surferdude wrote:
    I think you should have finished reading the book. Coles notes versions may have got you through school but that's a sad way to go through life.


    I didn't know they had Coles notes for the bible. Needed them to figure out Shakespeare though.

    I am doing fine and am happy with life. How about you?
    You've changed your place in this world!
  • dkst0426
    dkst0426 Posts: 523
    Cosmo wrote:
    ...
    Yeah... you know, I have no problem with people's personal religious beliefs. I problem I see is when they to tell me that their belief in my truth. It ain't. Whether you call your God, God or Allah or Johovah or Vishnu or McCready... I feel it is good. I believe that faith and hope gets people through tough times and I often wish that I could do that.
    There are some who would say there is no Absolute Truth, or that truth is relative. Of course, as a Christian, I point to this Truth: John 14:6. That's where divergence tends to begin.
    Right now, my greatest concern is this move to legislate and educate based upon one religion. This is still America and we still have the freedom of religion, which includes freedom from religion. I find this movement quite disturbing.
    Not sure I follow--what particular legislation/education are you referring to? About the First Amendment, the move today is to keep pointing to the Establishment Clause, but one thing the many individuals/groups who bring lawsuits tearing down any public mention of God or Jesus overlook is the Free Exercise Clause. Displays on public property is one thing, but when neighbors are getting sued to take down Nativity scenes from their own front yards and state offices allow Hanukkah and Ramadan and Kwanzaa displays but no Christmas displays and when school districts basically force students to become Muslims by observing their prayers and rituals and holy days, something's getting heavily misinterpreted (all of those have happened, by the way).
    And as for Jesus... I believe that we should all read His Sermon from the mount again and take it to heart. I try more to follow His teachings, than to just simply allow Him to take away all my misgivings for me. I will stand accountable for all of my personal sins because I chose to make them. I think i do Jesus a better service by trying to follow His lead, rather than laying all of my wrongdoings upon His shoulders.
    Exactly.

    And I won't be shouting for you go away. :D
  • dkst0426
    dkst0426 Posts: 523
    even flow? wrote:
    Got my eye for an eye attitude in catholic school by reading the bible. Have you missed that part in your studies?

    There's a bit more to it later on in the New Testament.

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