Glad you believe that. Wouldn't his soul (since he was a priest) be filled with goodness that he should have known what he was doing was only good for the internet. Maybe that is what god really wanted him to do and you and I are not in tune with that crazy thing some refer to as god.
If the guy strings himself up. He may be tormented by his soul. If not. He must have enjoyed destroying some young lives.
If that ends up being the case, then his soul certainly was not filled with goodness (the definition of which I think we CAN agree upon). This may not be a good enough answer, but I will offer it up anyway: priests are human, not divine. Yes, there are different (higher) standards for them, but to expect that just because they wear a clerical collar, they are somehow immune to the numerous things which trip all of us up as humans, is an expectation even the most devout and God-fearing of priests would have trouble meeting.
Who would want to be in a heaven with that. If I was one of those kids fathers and got to heaven. I would search that prick out and kill his soul. Just to add more punishment to his life in paradise.
Honestly, if I was one of those children's fathers, I'd be inclined to agree with you. Once again, this exemplifies our very human limits of grace and forgiveness. I'd like to think that IF someone like this ended up in heaven as I hope I myself will, I'd be able to understand how and why he's there.
I hope I'm not sounding smug. It's not intended to be. Just answering from my Christian perspective.
Cosmo, I want to go on record as saying that I really appreciate how you are framing your posts. I can take criticism/debunking of Christianity, it just gets old when it's worded the way it tends to be worded. In your case, you are asking some very pointed questions, and these are questions all Christians wrestle with as part of their relationship with Christ. So, again, thank you and God bless you.
Cosmo - I'd like to ad to this. You've questioned and criticised respectfully. Thank you.
I have to admit I don't know how all the details work regarding the forgiveness thing. But I do trust in God that it works as it should. I try notto get too caught up in argueing over things I don't understand not can find answers to. I think my time and energy is better spent trying to become the person I should be.
“One good thing about music,
when it hits you, you feel to pain.
So brutalize me with music.”
~ Bob Marley
This "born again" type of Christians scare the shit out of me. I think the there should be a limit to forgiveness. Yeah using the lord names in vien and what not should be forgiven, but the murderers and rapists should be doomed to hell.
You know what I'd like to see? An island picked out in the middle of nowhere way out in the ocean, preferably surrounded by shark-infested waters. A wall of solid concrete about 3 feet thick and 50 feet high with razor-sharp teeth lining the top. Airlift any newly-convicted murderers, rapists, serial killers, child molestors, and people who commit violent crime against elderly victims out there quarterly. Drop a crate of month's supply of food and water each time there's a new drop of inmates. Let them have at it.
I know, I know, not very Christlike of me.
Another example is Bush. I sure as hell dont want to go to heaven if hes going to be there. People hide behind religion far too often which is why so many people have a negative view of it.
Another example is Bush. I sure as hell dont want to go to heaven if hes going to be there. People hide behind religion far too often which is why so many people have a negative view of it.
Do people really think of heaven as some big cocktail party where there are people that you like and those you dislike that you're sitting around chatting with? Is it possible heaven might be a level of consciousness and a completely different experience that our human brains and experiences cannot fathom? I hope so. What's the point of heaven if it's just like earth?
The only people we should try to get even with...
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
Cosmo, I want to go on record as saying that I really appreciate how you are framing your posts. I can take criticism/debunking of Christianity, it just gets old when it's worded the way it tends to be worded. In your case, you are asking some very pointed questions, and these are questions all Christians wrestle with as part of their relationship with Christ. So, again, thank you and God bless you.
Now, on to your post........
I do see your point(s). As I said (and by no means is this meant as a cop-out from trying to come up with some deep theological answer), these are points/questions many Christians struggle with. Besides the examples you bring up, there are questions about infant deaths, people who never had the chance to hear about God (as opposed to people who have and reject Him), etc. The best answer I can give you right now (I just woke up after a really late night) is that we are all part of a fallen race, and mankind as a whole lives in a state of sin, no matter how hard we try to do good things to make it right--hence my (and a lot of other Christians') opposition to a works-based model of salvation. I will gladly revisit this later when I have more time to think about it if you'd like.
God isn't limited to the restrictions of man. That's not His nature. However, it is very much in our own human nature to try and put "God in a box" (so to say).
We believe in accountability for our actions, too. Saying "Jesus, please save me" one time and accepting the gift of salvation comes with the caveat that our lives from that point on are meant to be changed lives hopefully changing others. There is a verse in Scripture that reads "faith without works" is dead, and yes, that is in opposition to a works-based salvation. Those "certain religions" you speak of are elements that have begun to creep into "postmodern" Christianity, and it's yet another thing for Christians to struggle with today.
Bottom line: we WILL be judged for the character of our being and our actions. And how we respond to Christ's sacrifice for our salvation.
I'm sorry if that was too preachy for some of you. That was a direct (albeit public) response to Cosmo, and if anyone would like to break down that response, you're of course free to do so. All I can ask is that you do so with a spirit of respect, as I have tried to be gracious.
...
Yeah... you know, I have no problem with people's personal religious beliefs. I problem I see is when they to tell me that their belief in my truth. It ain't. Whether you call your God, God or Allah or Johovah or Vishnu or McCready... I feel it is good. I believe that faith and hope gets people through tough times and I often wish that I could do that.
Right now, my greatest concern is this move to legislate and educate based upon one religion. This is still America and we still have the freedom of religion, which includes freedom from religion. I find this movement quite disturbing.
And as for Jesus... I believe that we should all read His Sermon from the mount again and take it to heart. I try more to follow His teachings, than to just simply allow Him to take away all my misgivings for me. I will stand accountable for all of my personal sins because I chose to make them. I think i do Jesus a better service by trying to follow His lead, rather than laying all of my wrongdoings upon His shoulders.
...
and yeah... I like this discussion. It isn't preachy... just speak from your heart and I'll listen. Shout out orders and I'll go away.
peace...
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
...
Yeah... you know, I have no problem with people's personal religious beliefs. I problem I see is when they to tell me that their belief in my truth. It ain't. Whether you call your God, God or Allah or Johovah or Vishnu or McCready... I feel it is good. I believe that faith and hope gets people through tough times and I often wish that I could do that.
There are some who would say there is no Absolute Truth, or that truth is relative. Of course, as a Christian, I point to this Truth: John 14:6. That's where divergence tends to begin.
Right now, my greatest concern is this move to legislate and educate based upon one religion. This is still America and we still have the freedom of religion, which includes freedom from religion. I find this movement quite disturbing.
Not sure I follow--what particular legislation/education are you referring to? About the First Amendment, the move today is to keep pointing to the Establishment Clause, but one thing the many individuals/groups who bring lawsuits tearing down any public mention of God or Jesus overlook is the Free Exercise Clause. Displays on public property is one thing, but when neighbors are getting sued to take down Nativity scenes from their own front yards and state offices allow Hanukkah and Ramadan and Kwanzaa displays but no Christmas displays and when school districts basically force students to become Muslims by observing their prayers and rituals and holy days, something's getting heavily misinterpreted (all of those have happened, by the way).
And as for Jesus... I believe that we should all read His Sermon from the mount again and take it to heart. I try more to follow His teachings, than to just simply allow Him to take away all my misgivings for me. I will stand accountable for all of my personal sins because I chose to make them. I think i do Jesus a better service by trying to follow His lead, rather than laying all of my wrongdoings upon His shoulders.
I know this thread has gotten off course... So, I'll take it a little further off course.
I was talking to my neighbor's friend and we were talking about all this crap going on in Lebanon. He said it wasa time to rejoice because Biblical Phrophecy was coming to pass and Christ will return.
I said... you know, there are people dying over there and you are rejoicing? How is that any different than them, dancing as planes crashed into our buildings?
He went on about the destruction and rebuilding of the temple and all of that stuff... and I could not help to think... but, it means death and destruction of a lot of people's lives. This guy is happy for death and destruction for his own personal spiritual gain. The guy seemed a bit to whacked for me to argue with, so I let it be.
...
I'm just wondering... how would Jesus see this? My guess... through a tear stained eye.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
I am so not a fan of viewing what's going on right now through eschatological lenses. I'd venture to say you're right about Jesus' reaction to what's going on (just a guess, of course). You feel free to tell your friend that prognosticating about when Jesus is coming back has been done for hundreds of years, and not a one of them has been correct, and almost all of them have involved death and destruction.
Me personally, I try to live my life in anticipation of His coming, and not spend time trying to figure out when that'll be. It'll happen when it happens. Mine is to be prepared, not to predict.
I see. Well, if you don't mind me saying, while the Old Testament truly is an amazing collection, it provides for a bit of a limited view on Christianity.
Comments
Honestly, if I was one of those children's fathers, I'd be inclined to agree with you. Once again, this exemplifies our very human limits of grace and forgiveness. I'd like to think that IF someone like this ended up in heaven as I hope I myself will, I'd be able to understand how and why he's there.
I hope I'm not sounding smug. It's not intended to be. Just answering from my Christian perspective.
I have to admit I don't know how all the details work regarding the forgiveness thing. But I do trust in God that it works as it should. I try notto get too caught up in argueing over things I don't understand not can find answers to. I think my time and energy is better spent trying to become the person I should be.
when it hits you, you feel to pain.
So brutalize me with music.”
~ Bob Marley
I know, I know, not very Christlike of me.
I don't see the connection
Do people really think of heaven as some big cocktail party where there are people that you like and those you dislike that you're sitting around chatting with? Is it possible heaven might be a level of consciousness and a completely different experience that our human brains and experiences cannot fathom? I hope so. What's the point of heaven if it's just like earth?
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
Yeah... you know, I have no problem with people's personal religious beliefs. I problem I see is when they to tell me that their belief in my truth. It ain't. Whether you call your God, God or Allah or Johovah or Vishnu or McCready... I feel it is good. I believe that faith and hope gets people through tough times and I often wish that I could do that.
Right now, my greatest concern is this move to legislate and educate based upon one religion. This is still America and we still have the freedom of religion, which includes freedom from religion. I find this movement quite disturbing.
And as for Jesus... I believe that we should all read His Sermon from the mount again and take it to heart. I try more to follow His teachings, than to just simply allow Him to take away all my misgivings for me. I will stand accountable for all of my personal sins because I chose to make them. I think i do Jesus a better service by trying to follow His lead, rather than laying all of my wrongdoings upon His shoulders.
...
and yeah... I like this discussion. It isn't preachy... just speak from your heart and I'll listen. Shout out orders and I'll go away.
peace...
Hail, Hail!!!
Got my eye for an eye attitude in catholic school by reading the bible. Have you missed that part in your studies?
when it hits you, you feel to pain.
So brutalize me with music.”
~ Bob Marley
I didn't know they had Coles notes for the bible. Needed them to figure out Shakespeare though.
I am doing fine and am happy with life. How about you?
Not sure I follow--what particular legislation/education are you referring to? About the First Amendment, the move today is to keep pointing to the Establishment Clause, but one thing the many individuals/groups who bring lawsuits tearing down any public mention of God or Jesus overlook is the Free Exercise Clause. Displays on public property is one thing, but when neighbors are getting sued to take down Nativity scenes from their own front yards and state offices allow Hanukkah and Ramadan and Kwanzaa displays but no Christmas displays and when school districts basically force students to become Muslims by observing their prayers and rituals and holy days, something's getting heavily misinterpreted (all of those have happened, by the way).
Exactly.
And I won't be shouting for you go away.
There's a bit more to it later on in the New Testament.
I was talking to my neighbor's friend and we were talking about all this crap going on in Lebanon. He said it wasa time to rejoice because Biblical Phrophecy was coming to pass and Christ will return.
I said... you know, there are people dying over there and you are rejoicing? How is that any different than them, dancing as planes crashed into our buildings?
He went on about the destruction and rebuilding of the temple and all of that stuff... and I could not help to think... but, it means death and destruction of a lot of people's lives. This guy is happy for death and destruction for his own personal spiritual gain. The guy seemed a bit to whacked for me to argue with, so I let it be.
...
I'm just wondering... how would Jesus see this? My guess... through a tear stained eye.
Hail, Hail!!!
I'm an old school kind of guy.
Me personally, I try to live my life in anticipation of His coming, and not spend time trying to figure out when that'll be. It'll happen when it happens. Mine is to be prepared, not to predict.