Remember Waco, TX

_Crazy_Mary_ · January 2007

know1 wrote:

Didn't the Branch Davidians light the fires themselves?

Also, shooting and killing Federal Agents isn't a very good thing to do. They should have let them do their search. If they weren't guilty of anything, what does it matter?

From what I've heard/learned thus far, the fires were caused by the huge amounts of tear gas and gunfire - they were pumping in so much tear gas that an autopsy done on an 8-yr-old girl revealed her back was broken from convulsions due to breathing the gas.

Also, I agree they should have let the Agents do their search.

IndianSummer · January 2007

CorporateWhore wrote:

Pretty much.

The guy's name was David Karresh and he thought he was the prophet.

Guess he wasn't...

david koresh http://www.rotten.com/library/bio/religion/cult/david-koresh/

boxwine_in_hell · January 2007

sponger wrote:

There's a great documentary out there which pretty much proves that Reno and the ATF had every intention of killing everyone in that building. Koresh was in fact a child-molesting nutjob, so I wouldn't say he was an innocent victim. Of course, what happened to his followers was sad. Personally, I would think that parents who put their children in those kinds of situations are partly responsible too, so I'm not too grieved by the whole situation in general. I hate religion enough already as it is. A whacked out occult headed by a sick pervert is just one more reason why. Of course, people are going to say that whacked out occults and religion should not be grouped together, but I say they share fundamental similarities. They're both a bunch of bullshit that require their followers to devoid themselves of intuitiveness.

Well said, although I'd disagree that Reno and the ATF wanted to kill everyone in that compound. But it was handled poorly, obviously. It's a difficult situation when children are pretty much used as sheilds. Seems like there could have been a better solution with less loss of life.

lalalalaaaaaaaa · January 2007

boxwine_in_hell wrote:

Well said, although I'd disagree that Reno and the ATF wanted to kill everyone in that compound. But it was handled poorly, obviously. It's a difficult situation when children are pretty much used as sheilds. Seems like there could have been a better solution with less loss of life.

Same here. I think the documentary is still good, and I don't think it specifically suggests that the FBI were trying to kill everyone in the building...that's just what a few people interviewed said. But I think the main point is that they handled the situation horribly, and tried to cover it up by saying the Dividians committed mass suicide. So they should've been held accountable for something, and at least someone in the chain of command should've gone to jail for handling it the way they did.

Medicated-Genius · January 2007

_Crazy_Mary_ wrote:

From what I've heard/learned thus far, the fires were caused by the huge amounts of tear gas and gunfire - they were pumping in so much tear gas that an autopsy done on an 8-yr-old girl revealed her back was broken from convulsions due to breathing the gas.

Also, I agree they should have let the Agents do their search.

I saw this doco a few years ago, just watched it again. What I get from the documentary, and the testimony of various witnesses, is that the ATF were invited to the property in July the year before to inspect the weapons that were at the compound, the ATF refused or ignored the invitation. These people apparently never had the chance to let the ATF conduct their search, since dozens of agents gathered at the compound and began firing without warning? Perhaps I missed something, but I didnt see anything about agents attempting to serve a search warrant. They simply got into position and opened fire.

The infrared video tape from the helicopters also demonstrate a pretty clear picture of incoming fire, both in the form of bullets and grenades and tear gas.

boxwine_in_hell · January 2007

Saturnal wrote:

Same here. I think the documentary is still good, and I don't think it specifically suggests that the FBI were trying to kill everyone in the building...that's just what a few people interviewed said. But I think the main point is that they handled the situation horribly, and tried to cover it up by saying the Dividians committed mass suicide. So they should've been held accountable for something, and at least someone in the chain of command should've gone to jail for handling it the way they did.

Agreed.....I think the main lessons that should come out of Waco and things like Ruby Ridge is basically, don't heavily arm yourself with illegal weapons, pay your taxes and when The Government comes knocking on your door don't shoot at them and things like this can be avoided.

1970RR · January 2007

Here is an interesting report on Waco prepared by the Cato Institute:
http://www.cato.org/pubs/pas/pa395.pdf

upina2001 · January 2007

Not to mention the Govt busted down the outer walls with tanks so when the fires inside started, the howling winds could whistle thru the compound could help sustain the fire.

The Waiting Trophy Man · January 2007

_Crazy_Mary_ wrote:

I was only 16 when it happened, so I don't remember the anything about it.
This weekend my family was talking about this incident and this is what I "learned" about it.

i remember waco. i was 17 and i watched it live on cnn. crazy american televison!

The Illinoisemakers · January 2007

KidCarnivore wrote:

I'm not defendingthe Davidians, but it is important to remember that much of the incriminating information (child molestation, etc) was provided by ex-members...I feel that their testimonies should be taken with a grain of salt.

Why? I would think that their testimonies would be right on.

miller8966 · January 2007

another clinton screw up

Cosmo · January 2007

I remember watching the Waco standoff unfolding. The Dividians were given ample opportunities to leave the compound during the standoff that lasted about 2 months, which many of them chose to do. Negotiators pleaded with them to release the children, but the Dividians refused. A Deadline was established and the consequences of failure to comply with orders was given.
During the final assault, he tear gas was dispensed via an armoured vehicle (not a tank) with a boom extension... like the battering ram vehicles used to knock down hardened drug safe houses. Tear gas canisters may have been the catalyst that ignited cannisters of fuel that were placed in several locations within the compound... but several fires broke out throughout the compound.
The final toll was about 80... mostly due to the fires. Some of the Dividians died when the burning tear gas produced cyanide, others were shot by the Dividians themselves... possibly as mercy killings as the option to burning to death.
...
The Branch Dividians were being served with a search warrant and an arrest warrant for David Koresh, the Church's leader when the seige was initiated. The warrants were for firearms and explosives violations.
Politicize this all you want... The Davidians were in an armed encampment. It's not like the ATF and FBI are going to launch tear gas cannisters into your home for no reason. And if you greet a bench issued warrant with gunfire... face it... you will draw return fire.

lalalalaaaaaaaa · January 2007

Cosmo wrote:

I remember watching the Waco standoff unfolding. The Dividians were given ample opportunities to leave the compound during the standoff that lasted about 2 months, which many of them chose to do. Negotiators pleaded with them to release the children, but the Dividians refused. A Deadline was established and the consequences of failure to comply with orders was given.
During the final assault, he tear gas was dispensed via an armoured vehicle (not a tank) with a boom extension... like the battering ram vehicles used to knock down hardened drug safe houses. Tear gas canisters may have been the catalyst that ignited cannisters of fuel that were placed in several locations within the compound... but several fires broke out throughout the compound.
The final toll was about 80... mostly due to the fires. Some of the Dividians died when the burning tear gas produced cyanide, others were shot by the Dividians themselves... possibly as mercy killings as the option to burning to death.
...
The Branch Dividians were being served with a search warrant and an arrest warrant for David Koresh, the Church's leader when the seige was initiated. The warrants were for firearms and explosives violations.
Politicize this all you want... The Davidians were in an armed encampment. It's not like the ATF and FBI are going to launch tear gas cannisters into your home for no reason. And if you greet a bench issued warrant with gunfire... face it... you will draw return fire.

Most of that is true, and I think this story does show how religious fundamentalism can be a problem. But you also have to consider the fact that it's never been proven that the Dividians fired first. ATF agents say they did...the Dividian survivors and Koresh said the ATF fired first. So who is lying? It's hard to say, but if you listen to the negotiation tapes and congressional hearings, the ATF and FBI lied a number of times. I think the only thing Koresh did was go back on his word concerning the deadline.

I think Koresh was a typical religious leader type...a little nutty. But it's also clear to me that the ATF was lead by a bunch of scumbags who wanted that raid to happen to get some badly needed good press...they just didn't expect the Dividians to resist as much as they did.

Cosmo · January 2007

Saturnal wrote:

Most of that is true, and I think this story does show how religious fundamentalism can be a problem. But you also have to consider the fact that it's never been proven that the Dividians fired first. ATF agents say they did...the Dividian survivors and Koresh said the ATF fired first. So who is lying? It's hard to say, but if you listen to the negotiation tapes and congressional hearings, the ATF and FBI lied a number of times. I think the only thing Koresh did was go back on his word concerning the deadline.

I think Koresh was a typical religious leader type...a little nutty. But it's also clear to me that the ATF was lead by a bunch of scumbags who wanted that raid to happen to get some badly needed good press...they just didn't expect the Dividians to resist as much as they did.

...
Their religious beliefs never can under fire, except when the print and broadcast media delivered it to the American people and all of these pundit assholes got into the mix. The warrants were issued for weapons and explosives violations. A UPS delivery man had reported seeing cases of grenades on the compound grounds... true or not? I don't know.
As for the first shots fired... we will never know. But, the initial exchange occurred when a handful of agents... not the army that amassed during the 2 month seige... tried to issue the arrest warrant. The biggest mistake was made the news media got involved... reporters asked someone for directions to the compound who turned out to be a Branch Dividian. He alerted the leaders of the impending raid.
And yes... I agree that the ATF and FBI probably wanted the final attack. This was the new generation of on T.V., 24-hour coverage... like the Gulf War. They were all Gung Ho about a fire fight. In a stand off situation... time is always on the side of Law Enforcement. The compound could only survive for so long... even with on-site generators and a self contained water supply... eventually, it runs out. They can use sleep depravation techniques, such as the ones used to flush Norriega out of his compound in Panama, as well as a myriad of other things to wear down the defenders. Law Enforcement could have held out for years, if needed. Eventually, hungry and thirst would have worn them out and they would probably either came out willingly or committed a mass suicide.
Both sides played their hands poorly.

KidCarnivore · January 2007

Cosmo wrote:

...
A UPS delivery man had reported seeing cases of grenades on the compound grounds... true or not? I don't know.

It was later proved that the grenades were shells, which had been used by the Davidians to create those novelty "Complaint Department: Please Take a Number" things. The Davidians had been selling them for years, and they are legally available at all kinds of military surplus stores.

Cosmo · January 2007

KidCarnivore wrote:

It was later proved that the grenades were shells, which had been used by the Davidians to create those novelty "Complaint Department: Please Take a Number" things. The Davidians had been selling them for years, and they are legally available at all kinds of military surplus stores.

...
But, you wouldn't know that by looking at them from a distance, right? I mean, a grenade looks like a grenade to me... until I can walk up it it and examine it. When a closed organization is rumoured to have a stockpile of weapons at their disposal... and you see grenade cases in their backyard... it does raise suspicion.
The warrant was issued based upon the information they had on the weapons. Which DID exist because ATF agents took fire from them and were killed.
Do i think the search was warranted? Yeah... I would want the cops to check out some cult out in the desert near me if they were stocking up on AR-15s.
Do i think the raid was mishandled. Yes. I think the whole thing could have been avoided by just sitting out there and waiting them out... even if it meant sitting out there for a year. Eventully, the Davidians would have either given up when the water was gone or when Koresh gave the order to drink the purple Kool-aid.

KidCarnivore · January 2007

Cosmo wrote:

...
Do i think the search was warranted? Yeah... I would want the cops to check out some cult out in the desert near me if they were stocking up on AR-15s.
.

I don't totally disagree, but a large part of the stand-off was due to the feds playing right into the martyr complex that the Davidians had. Obviously, you can't expect a total lack of investigation, but it seems that the ATF, etc. were very crass in the infiltration and confrontation with the Davidians. If a group has a persecution complex (like many Christians and off-spring cults) I think it's really important to only ram tanks into their churches when absolutely necessary.

brainofPJ · January 2007

SPEEDY MCCREADY wrote:

tell em large marge sent ya...............

holey shite, lol

Cosmo · January 2007

KidCarnivore wrote:

I don't totally disagree, but a large part of the stand-off was due to the feds playing right into the martyr complex that the Davidians had. Obviously, you can't expect a total lack of investigation, but it seems that the ATF, etc. were very crass in the infiltration and confrontation with the Davidians. If a group has a persecution complex (like many Christians and off-spring cults) I think it's really important to only ram tanks into their churches when absolutely necessary.

...
Yeah... I agree.
I believe in letting people be... until they acquire a bunch of guns. Then, it's time to see what they're up to. and since you know they've got a bunch of guns... and there are a bunch of them... you have to exercise extreme caution.
and as I have stated... in a stand off situation... the best tack to take is waiting them out. Shut off the power... shut off the water... shut off the gas... pump up the blaring, non-stop techno-house music... keep the phone lines going and negotiate. Eventually, they'll start saying, 'Fuck this shit... I'm hungry'.

KidCarnivore · January 2007

Cosmo wrote:

...
Yeah... I agree.
I believe in letting people be... until they acquire a bunch of guns. Then, it's time to see what they're up to. and since you know they've got a bunch of guns... and there are a bunch of them... you have to exercise extreme caution.
and as I have stated... in a stand off situation... the best tack to take is waiting them out. Shut off the power... shut off the water... shut off the gas... pump up the blaring, non-stop techno-house music... keep the phone lines going and negotiate. Eventually, they'll start saying, 'Fuck this shit... I'm hungry'.

I agree, it seems like the feds were quick to confrontation. Physical confrontation with a group who sees themselves as martyrs isn't a good plan. There were ways that this could have been resolved without that level of violence.

Remember Waco, TX

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