I remember watching the Waco standoff unfolding. The Dividians were given ample opportunities to leave the compound during the standoff that lasted about 2 months, which many of them chose to do. Negotiators pleaded with them to release the children, but the Dividians refused. A Deadline was established and the consequences of failure to comply with orders was given.
During the final assault, he tear gas was dispensed via an armoured vehicle (not a tank) with a boom extension... like the battering ram vehicles used to knock down hardened drug safe houses. Tear gas canisters may have been the catalyst that ignited cannisters of fuel that were placed in several locations within the compound... but several fires broke out throughout the compound.
The final toll was about 80... mostly due to the fires. Some of the Dividians died when the burning tear gas produced cyanide, others were shot by the Dividians themselves... possibly as mercy killings as the option to burning to death.
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The Branch Dividians were being served with a search warrant and an arrest warrant for David Koresh, the Church's leader when the seige was initiated. The warrants were for firearms and explosives violations.
Politicize this all you want... The Davidians were in an armed encampment. It's not like the ATF and FBI are going to launch tear gas cannisters into your home for no reason. And if you greet a bench issued warrant with gunfire... face it... you will draw return fire.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
I remember watching the Waco standoff unfolding. The Dividians were given ample opportunities to leave the compound during the standoff that lasted about 2 months, which many of them chose to do. Negotiators pleaded with them to release the children, but the Dividians refused. A Deadline was established and the consequences of failure to comply with orders was given.
During the final assault, he tear gas was dispensed via an armoured vehicle (not a tank) with a boom extension... like the battering ram vehicles used to knock down hardened drug safe houses. Tear gas canisters may have been the catalyst that ignited cannisters of fuel that were placed in several locations within the compound... but several fires broke out throughout the compound.
The final toll was about 80... mostly due to the fires. Some of the Dividians died when the burning tear gas produced cyanide, others were shot by the Dividians themselves... possibly as mercy killings as the option to burning to death.
...
The Branch Dividians were being served with a search warrant and an arrest warrant for David Koresh, the Church's leader when the seige was initiated. The warrants were for firearms and explosives violations.
Politicize this all you want... The Davidians were in an armed encampment. It's not like the ATF and FBI are going to launch tear gas cannisters into your home for no reason. And if you greet a bench issued warrant with gunfire... face it... you will draw return fire.
Most of that is true, and I think this story does show how religious fundamentalism can be a problem. But you also have to consider the fact that it's never been proven that the Dividians fired first. ATF agents say they did...the Dividian survivors and Koresh said the ATF fired first. So who is lying? It's hard to say, but if you listen to the negotiation tapes and congressional hearings, the ATF and FBI lied a number of times. I think the only thing Koresh did was go back on his word concerning the deadline.
I think Koresh was a typical religious leader type...a little nutty. But it's also clear to me that the ATF was lead by a bunch of scumbags who wanted that raid to happen to get some badly needed good press...they just didn't expect the Dividians to resist as much as they did.
Most of that is true, and I think this story does show how religious fundamentalism can be a problem. But you also have to consider the fact that it's never been proven that the Dividians fired first. ATF agents say they did...the Dividian survivors and Koresh said the ATF fired first. So who is lying? It's hard to say, but if you listen to the negotiation tapes and congressional hearings, the ATF and FBI lied a number of times. I think the only thing Koresh did was go back on his word concerning the deadline.
I think Koresh was a typical religious leader type...a little nutty. But it's also clear to me that the ATF was lead by a bunch of scumbags who wanted that raid to happen to get some badly needed good press...they just didn't expect the Dividians to resist as much as they did.
...
Their religious beliefs never can under fire, except when the print and broadcast media delivered it to the American people and all of these pundit assholes got into the mix. The warrants were issued for weapons and explosives violations. A UPS delivery man had reported seeing cases of grenades on the compound grounds... true or not? I don't know.
As for the first shots fired... we will never know. But, the initial exchange occurred when a handful of agents... not the army that amassed during the 2 month seige... tried to issue the arrest warrant. The biggest mistake was made the news media got involved... reporters asked someone for directions to the compound who turned out to be a Branch Dividian. He alerted the leaders of the impending raid.
And yes... I agree that the ATF and FBI probably wanted the final attack. This was the new generation of on T.V., 24-hour coverage... like the Gulf War. They were all Gung Ho about a fire fight. In a stand off situation... time is always on the side of Law Enforcement. The compound could only survive for so long... even with on-site generators and a self contained water supply... eventually, it runs out. They can use sleep depravation techniques, such as the ones used to flush Norriega out of his compound in Panama, as well as a myriad of other things to wear down the defenders. Law Enforcement could have held out for years, if needed. Eventually, hungry and thirst would have worn them out and they would probably either came out willingly or committed a mass suicide.
Both sides played their hands poorly.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
...
A UPS delivery man had reported seeing cases of grenades on the compound grounds... true or not? I don't know.
It was later proved that the grenades were shells, which had been used by the Davidians to create those novelty "Complaint Department: Please Take a Number" things. The Davidians had been selling them for years, and they are legally available at all kinds of military surplus stores.
"All governments are murderers and liars."
-Bill Hicks
It was later proved that the grenades were shells, which had been used by the Davidians to create those novelty "Complaint Department: Please Take a Number" things. The Davidians had been selling them for years, and they are legally available at all kinds of military surplus stores.
...
But, you wouldn't know that by looking at them from a distance, right? I mean, a grenade looks like a grenade to me... until I can walk up it it and examine it. When a closed organization is rumoured to have a stockpile of weapons at their disposal... and you see grenade cases in their backyard... it does raise suspicion.
The warrant was issued based upon the information they had on the weapons. Which DID exist because ATF agents took fire from them and were killed.
Do i think the search was warranted? Yeah... I would want the cops to check out some cult out in the desert near me if they were stocking up on AR-15s.
Do i think the raid was mishandled. Yes. I think the whole thing could have been avoided by just sitting out there and waiting them out... even if it meant sitting out there for a year. Eventully, the Davidians would have either given up when the water was gone or when Koresh gave the order to drink the purple Kool-aid.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
...
Do i think the search was warranted? Yeah... I would want the cops to check out some cult out in the desert near me if they were stocking up on AR-15s.
.
I don't totally disagree, but a large part of the stand-off was due to the feds playing right into the martyr complex that the Davidians had. Obviously, you can't expect a total lack of investigation, but it seems that the ATF, etc. were very crass in the infiltration and confrontation with the Davidians. If a group has a persecution complex (like many Christians and off-spring cults) I think it's really important to only ram tanks into their churches when absolutely necessary.
"All governments are murderers and liars."
-Bill Hicks
I don't totally disagree, but a large part of the stand-off was due to the feds playing right into the martyr complex that the Davidians had. Obviously, you can't expect a total lack of investigation, but it seems that the ATF, etc. were very crass in the infiltration and confrontation with the Davidians. If a group has a persecution complex (like many Christians and off-spring cults) I think it's really important to only ram tanks into their churches when absolutely necessary.
...
Yeah... I agree.
I believe in letting people be... until they acquire a bunch of guns. Then, it's time to see what they're up to. and since you know they've got a bunch of guns... and there are a bunch of them... you have to exercise extreme caution.
and as I have stated... in a stand off situation... the best tack to take is waiting them out. Shut off the power... shut off the water... shut off the gas... pump up the blaring, non-stop techno-house music... keep the phone lines going and negotiate. Eventually, they'll start saying, 'Fuck this shit... I'm hungry'.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
...
Yeah... I agree.
I believe in letting people be... until they acquire a bunch of guns. Then, it's time to see what they're up to. and since you know they've got a bunch of guns... and there are a bunch of them... you have to exercise extreme caution.
and as I have stated... in a stand off situation... the best tack to take is waiting them out. Shut off the power... shut off the water... shut off the gas... pump up the blaring, non-stop techno-house music... keep the phone lines going and negotiate. Eventually, they'll start saying, 'Fuck this shit... I'm hungry'.
I agree, it seems like the feds were quick to confrontation. Physical confrontation with a group who sees themselves as martyrs isn't a good plan. There were ways that this could have been resolved without that level of violence.
"All governments are murderers and liars."
-Bill Hicks
What I got from that documentary was that the FBI/ATF or whoever purposely prevented anybody from leaving the building even as it was burning to the ground. I believe the thermal-imaging from the circling chopper filmed the agents shooting at doorways as people were trying to escape the flames. Is that not what happened? Is that not intentionally killing everyone in the building?
What I got from that documentary was that the FBI/ATF or whoever purposely prevented anybody from leaving the building even as it was burning to the ground. I believe the thermal-imaging from the circling chopper filmed the agents shooting at doorways as people were trying to escape the flames. Is that not what happened? Is that not intentionally killing everyone in the building?
Yeah, I'm not sure about them trying to kill everyone, but it definitely looked to me like they were shooting at the building, and the FBI's whole thing after the incident was "we didn't fire a single shot" and "they committed mass suicide".
Comments
During the final assault, he tear gas was dispensed via an armoured vehicle (not a tank) with a boom extension... like the battering ram vehicles used to knock down hardened drug safe houses. Tear gas canisters may have been the catalyst that ignited cannisters of fuel that were placed in several locations within the compound... but several fires broke out throughout the compound.
The final toll was about 80... mostly due to the fires. Some of the Dividians died when the burning tear gas produced cyanide, others were shot by the Dividians themselves... possibly as mercy killings as the option to burning to death.
...
The Branch Dividians were being served with a search warrant and an arrest warrant for David Koresh, the Church's leader when the seige was initiated. The warrants were for firearms and explosives violations.
Politicize this all you want... The Davidians were in an armed encampment. It's not like the ATF and FBI are going to launch tear gas cannisters into your home for no reason. And if you greet a bench issued warrant with gunfire... face it... you will draw return fire.
Hail, Hail!!!
Most of that is true, and I think this story does show how religious fundamentalism can be a problem. But you also have to consider the fact that it's never been proven that the Dividians fired first. ATF agents say they did...the Dividian survivors and Koresh said the ATF fired first. So who is lying? It's hard to say, but if you listen to the negotiation tapes and congressional hearings, the ATF and FBI lied a number of times. I think the only thing Koresh did was go back on his word concerning the deadline.
I think Koresh was a typical religious leader type...a little nutty. But it's also clear to me that the ATF was lead by a bunch of scumbags who wanted that raid to happen to get some badly needed good press...they just didn't expect the Dividians to resist as much as they did.
Their religious beliefs never can under fire, except when the print and broadcast media delivered it to the American people and all of these pundit assholes got into the mix. The warrants were issued for weapons and explosives violations. A UPS delivery man had reported seeing cases of grenades on the compound grounds... true or not? I don't know.
As for the first shots fired... we will never know. But, the initial exchange occurred when a handful of agents... not the army that amassed during the 2 month seige... tried to issue the arrest warrant. The biggest mistake was made the news media got involved... reporters asked someone for directions to the compound who turned out to be a Branch Dividian. He alerted the leaders of the impending raid.
And yes... I agree that the ATF and FBI probably wanted the final attack. This was the new generation of on T.V., 24-hour coverage... like the Gulf War. They were all Gung Ho about a fire fight. In a stand off situation... time is always on the side of Law Enforcement. The compound could only survive for so long... even with on-site generators and a self contained water supply... eventually, it runs out. They can use sleep depravation techniques, such as the ones used to flush Norriega out of his compound in Panama, as well as a myriad of other things to wear down the defenders. Law Enforcement could have held out for years, if needed. Eventually, hungry and thirst would have worn them out and they would probably either came out willingly or committed a mass suicide.
Both sides played their hands poorly.
Hail, Hail!!!
It was later proved that the grenades were shells, which had been used by the Davidians to create those novelty "Complaint Department: Please Take a Number" things. The Davidians had been selling them for years, and they are legally available at all kinds of military surplus stores.
-Bill Hicks
But, you wouldn't know that by looking at them from a distance, right? I mean, a grenade looks like a grenade to me... until I can walk up it it and examine it. When a closed organization is rumoured to have a stockpile of weapons at their disposal... and you see grenade cases in their backyard... it does raise suspicion.
The warrant was issued based upon the information they had on the weapons. Which DID exist because ATF agents took fire from them and were killed.
Do i think the search was warranted? Yeah... I would want the cops to check out some cult out in the desert near me if they were stocking up on AR-15s.
Do i think the raid was mishandled. Yes. I think the whole thing could have been avoided by just sitting out there and waiting them out... even if it meant sitting out there for a year. Eventully, the Davidians would have either given up when the water was gone or when Koresh gave the order to drink the purple Kool-aid.
Hail, Hail!!!
I don't totally disagree, but a large part of the stand-off was due to the feds playing right into the martyr complex that the Davidians had. Obviously, you can't expect a total lack of investigation, but it seems that the ATF, etc. were very crass in the infiltration and confrontation with the Davidians. If a group has a persecution complex (like many Christians and off-spring cults) I think it's really important to only ram tanks into their churches when absolutely necessary.
-Bill Hicks
holey shite, lol
Esther's here and she's sick?
hi Esther, now we are all going to be sick, thanks
Yeah... I agree.
I believe in letting people be... until they acquire a bunch of guns. Then, it's time to see what they're up to. and since you know they've got a bunch of guns... and there are a bunch of them... you have to exercise extreme caution.
and as I have stated... in a stand off situation... the best tack to take is waiting them out. Shut off the power... shut off the water... shut off the gas... pump up the blaring, non-stop techno-house music... keep the phone lines going and negotiate. Eventually, they'll start saying, 'Fuck this shit... I'm hungry'.
Hail, Hail!!!
I agree, it seems like the feds were quick to confrontation. Physical confrontation with a group who sees themselves as martyrs isn't a good plan. There were ways that this could have been resolved without that level of violence.
-Bill Hicks
http://forums.pearljam.com/showthread.php?t=272825
Yeah, I'm not sure about them trying to kill everyone, but it definitely looked to me like they were shooting at the building, and the FBI's whole thing after the incident was "we didn't fire a single shot" and "they committed mass suicide".