Remember Waco, TX

_Crazy_Mary_

Obviously, this is an old story.

I was only 16 when it happened, so I don't remember the anything about it.
This weekend my family was talking about this incident and this is what I "learned" about it.

There was a cult in Waco, TX that had a large stockpile of weapons (illegally?). Concerns were raised about the welfare of the children living in the cult and that's what started the whole thing.

The cult members wouldn't turn in their weapons and after months of a standoff and tons of tear gas, everyone died, even the children that the officials were trying to protect.

Is that the right story?

CorporateWhore

_Crazy_Mary_ wrote:

Obviously, this is an old story.

I was only 16 when it happened, so I don't remember the anything about it.
This weekend my family was talking about this incident and this is what I "learned" about it.

There was a cult in Waco, TX that had a large stockpile of weapons (illegally?). Concerns were raised about the welfare of the children living in the cult and that's what started the whole thing.

The cult members wouldn't turn in their weapons and after months of a standoff and tons of tear gas, everyone died, even the children that the officials were trying to protect.

Is that the right story?

Pretty much.

The guy's name was David Karresh and he thought he was the prophet.

Guess he wasn't...

jeffbr

I remember Field Marshal Reno ordering their extermination. She sure showed them.

KidCarnivore

Remember how ramming the tanks into the buildings was supposed to give the Davidians a way out? Didn't quite work out.

sponger

There's a great documentary out there which pretty much proves that Reno and the ATF had every intention of killing everyone in that building. Koresh was in fact a child-molesting nutjob, so I wouldn't say he was an innocent victim. Of course, what happened to his followers was sad. Personally, I would think that parents who put their children in those kinds of situations are partly responsible too, so I'm not too grieved by the whole situation in general. I hate religion enough already as it is. A whacked out occult headed by a sick pervert is just one more reason why. Of course, people are going to say that whacked out occults and religion should not be grouped together, but I say they share fundamental similarities. They're both a bunch of bullshit that require their followers to devoid themselves of intuitiveness.

lalalalaaaaaaaa

sponger wrote:

There's a great documentary out there which pretty much proves that Reno and the ATF had every intention of killing everyone in that building. Koresh was in fact a child-molesting nutjob, so I wouldn't say he was an innocent victim. Of course, what happened to his followers was sad. Personally, I would think that parents who put their children in those kinds of situations are partly responsible too, so I'm not too grieved by the whole situation in general.

I've seen this one too (I'm assuming it's the same thing). The most convincing evidence against the FBI is the overhead video shot from the plane. There is clearly gunfire going off from various points surrounding the complex during the final day. Crazy.

_Crazy_Mary_

sponger, I think I feel the same way you do about religion.
But I do feel bad for those kids that were there. What the hell? They were concerned for the children's safety so they gassed 'em to death?

sponger

_Crazy_Mary_ wrote:

sponger, I think I feel the same way you do about religion.
But I do feel bad for those kids that were there. What the hell? They were concerned for the children's safety so they gassed 'em to death?

Well, they weren't gassed to death. They were broiled alive. If I remember the documentary right, the children were holed up in the basement. When the house caught on fire, the basement basically became an oven before it eventually caught on fire and incinerated its occupants.

So, yeah, that's pretty messed up. And of course I feel bad for them. But, what keeps me from feeling really, really bad is the prospect that they may have grown up in a life of abuse and brainwashing anyway.

KidCarnivore

I'm not defendingthe Davidians, but it is important to remember that much of the incriminating information (child molestation, etc) was provided by ex-members...I feel that their testimonies should be taken with a grain of salt.

brain of c

i remember.......the alamo.

SPEEDY MCCREADY

brain of c wrote:

i remember.......the alamo.

the stars at night .....
are big and bright....................

brain of c

deep in the heart of texas.

SPEEDY MCCREADY

brain of c wrote:

deep in the heart of texas.

tell em large marge sent ya...............

sapperskunk

Janet Reno was horrid.

You should check out Randy Weaver, a buddy of mine met him once.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruby_Ridge

jeffbr

sapperskunk wrote:

Janet Reno was horrid.

You should check out Randy Weaver, a buddy of mine met him once.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruby_Ridge

That was the start of my hate of the Clinton administration. Janet Reno, Loius Freeh, and that fucking douchbag sniper Lon Horiuchi hitting Vicki Weaver right between the eyes while she was holding her baby. Goddam.

Galiana

Ruby Ridge happened in 1992, when Bush 41 was still president. Clinton was left to clean up the mess.

puremagic

jeffbr wrote:

I remember Field Marshal Reno ordering their extermination. She sure showed them.

I also remember the terrorists Timothy McVeigh and Terry Nichols who murdered many innocence people who didn't have a damn thing to do with Waco. Guess it was to far to drive to Washington, D.C. to confront Reno on her own turf. Talk about your cowards!!!!!!!!

know1

Didn't the Branch Davidians light the fires themselves?

Also, shooting and killing Federal Agents isn't a very good thing to do. They should have let them do their search. If they weren't guilty of anything, what does it matter?

lalalalaaaaaaaa

know1 wrote:

Didn't the Branch Davidians light the fires themselves?

Also, shooting and killing Federal Agents isn't a very good thing to do. They should have let them do their search. If they weren't guilty of anything, what does it matter?

I should mention a couple of things, and I'll link a documentary on this as well.

The Branch Dividians who survived claim that the ATF agents opened fire on them first during the raid, and so they fired back. They also claim (as other reporters and people outside the church claim) that the attitude of the ATF was to go through with the raid no matter if they received no resistance to a search or heavy resistance. There is definitely evidence that a local ATF agent had made contact with local media a few days before the raid, indicating that it would be a good little story to print...the ATF was getting lots of bad press at the time.

Also, I believe no Branch Dividian survivor said the fires were started by them. The fires were most likely a result of the tear gas being poured in, the holes in the complex, and gunfire. I believe years later, the FBI said the fires probably started as a result of those things, and not as a suicide attempt by the Dividians.

Anyways, check this out. I think it's a good investigation of what happened, although it's definitely one-sided. But there is some very convincing evidence that gets brought up especially ATF and FBI negotiators flat out lying on tape, as well as some good overhead video footage:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4298137966377572665

jeffbr

Galiana wrote:

Ruby Ridge happened in 1992, when Bush 41 was still president. Clinton was left to clean up the mess.

Yes, my mistake. It was the investigation into the events during the Louis Freeh era that drove me up a wall, but the event absolutely occurred during Bush I.

Heineken Helen

know1 wrote:

Didn't the Branch Davidians light the fires themselves?

Also, shooting and killing Federal Agents isn't a very good thing to do. They should have let them do their search. If they weren't guilty of anything, what does it matter?

it's still someone walking into your house and going through all YOUR possessions... would you feel the same about an intruder? 'what does it matter?'

_Crazy_Mary_

know1 wrote:

Didn't the Branch Davidians light the fires themselves?

Also, shooting and killing Federal Agents isn't a very good thing to do. They should have let them do their search. If they weren't guilty of anything, what does it matter?

From what I've heard/learned thus far, the fires were caused by the huge amounts of tear gas and gunfire - they were pumping in so much tear gas that an autopsy done on an 8-yr-old girl revealed her back was broken from convulsions due to breathing the gas.

Also, I agree they should have let the Agents do their search.

IndianSummer

CorporateWhore wrote:

Pretty much.

The guy's name was David Karresh and he thought he was the prophet.

Guess he wasn't...

david koresh http://www.rotten.com/library/bio/religion/cult/david-koresh/

boxwine_in_hell

sponger wrote:

There's a great documentary out there which pretty much proves that Reno and the ATF had every intention of killing everyone in that building. Koresh was in fact a child-molesting nutjob, so I wouldn't say he was an innocent victim. Of course, what happened to his followers was sad. Personally, I would think that parents who put their children in those kinds of situations are partly responsible too, so I'm not too grieved by the whole situation in general. I hate religion enough already as it is. A whacked out occult headed by a sick pervert is just one more reason why. Of course, people are going to say that whacked out occults and religion should not be grouped together, but I say they share fundamental similarities. They're both a bunch of bullshit that require their followers to devoid themselves of intuitiveness.

Well said, although I'd disagree that Reno and the ATF wanted to kill everyone in that compound. But it was handled poorly, obviously. It's a difficult situation when children are pretty much used as sheilds. Seems like there could have been a better solution with less loss of life.

lalalalaaaaaaaa

boxwine_in_hell wrote:

Well said, although I'd disagree that Reno and the ATF wanted to kill everyone in that compound. But it was handled poorly, obviously. It's a difficult situation when children are pretty much used as sheilds. Seems like there could have been a better solution with less loss of life.

Same here. I think the documentary is still good, and I don't think it specifically suggests that the FBI were trying to kill everyone in the building...that's just what a few people interviewed said. But I think the main point is that they handled the situation horribly, and tried to cover it up by saying the Dividians committed mass suicide. So they should've been held accountable for something, and at least someone in the chain of command should've gone to jail for handling it the way they did.

Medicated-Genius

_Crazy_Mary_ wrote:

From what I've heard/learned thus far, the fires were caused by the huge amounts of tear gas and gunfire - they were pumping in so much tear gas that an autopsy done on an 8-yr-old girl revealed her back was broken from convulsions due to breathing the gas.

Also, I agree they should have let the Agents do their search.

I saw this doco a few years ago, just watched it again. What I get from the documentary, and the testimony of various witnesses, is that the ATF were invited to the property in July the year before to inspect the weapons that were at the compound, the ATF refused or ignored the invitation. These people apparently never had the chance to let the ATF conduct their search, since dozens of agents gathered at the compound and began firing without warning? Perhaps I missed something, but I didnt see anything about agents attempting to serve a search warrant. They simply got into position and opened fire.

The infrared video tape from the helicopters also demonstrate a pretty clear picture of incoming fire, both in the form of bullets and grenades and tear gas.

boxwine_in_hell

Saturnal wrote:

Same here. I think the documentary is still good, and I don't think it specifically suggests that the FBI were trying to kill everyone in the building...that's just what a few people interviewed said. But I think the main point is that they handled the situation horribly, and tried to cover it up by saying the Dividians committed mass suicide. So they should've been held accountable for something, and at least someone in the chain of command should've gone to jail for handling it the way they did.

Agreed.....I think the main lessons that should come out of Waco and things like Ruby Ridge is basically, don't heavily arm yourself with illegal weapons, pay your taxes and when The Government comes knocking on your door don't shoot at them and things like this can be avoided.

1970RR

Here is an interesting report on Waco prepared by the Cato Institute:
http://www.cato.org/pubs/pas/pa395.pdf

upina2001

Not to mention the Govt busted down the outer walls with tanks so when the fires inside started, the howling winds could whistle thru the compound could help sustain the fire.

The Waiting Trophy Man

_Crazy_Mary_ wrote:

I was only 16 when it happened, so I don't remember the anything about it.
This weekend my family was talking about this incident and this is what I "learned" about it.

i remember waco. i was 17 and i watched it live on cnn. crazy american televison!

The Illinoisemakers

KidCarnivore wrote:

I'm not defendingthe Davidians, but it is important to remember that much of the incriminating information (child molestation, etc) was provided by ex-members...I feel that their testimonies should be taken with a grain of salt.

Why? I would think that their testimonies would be right on.