yuo know all that money they want to use to bail out the shitty US economy...?

catefrances
catefrances Posts: 29,003
edited October 2008 in A Moving Train
... why cant they use it to pay off the mortgages of countless average joe americans? would that not stimulate the economy as previous money used to pay off the banks and other mortgage holders is freed up for mindless spending. :D


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  • pjalive21
    pjalive21 St. Louis, MO Posts: 2,818
    why bail people out who went in over their heads getting mortgages they knew they couldnt afford, its just as much on the home owner as it is the lender who stupidly gave them the loan

    i just bought a house and did it in a way where it was within my means, i dont get how other people couldnt use that common sense
  • mammasan
    mammasan Posts: 5,655
    pjalive21 wrote:
    why bail people out who went in over their heads getting mortgages they knew they couldnt afford, its just as much on the home owner as it is the lender who stupidly gave them the loan

    i just bought a house and did it in a way where it was within my means, i dont get how other people couldnt use that common sense

    Not all foreclosures where because people got in over their heads.

    "Prime looks terrible." Those were the words of Jamie Dimon, CEO of JPMorgan Chase (JPM) when he had his earnings call for Q2. And, indeed, prime is terrible.

    New data out from Hope Now shows that there are now more prime mortgage delinquencies in the United States than there are subprime delinquencies. This is almost certain to mean some major losses on mortgage-related securities like CDOs and RMBSs.



    If you enlarge the image above, you will clearly see that prime mortgage delinquencies of 60 days or more have been trending up so quickly that they now represent more than subprime with 1,009,000 prime delinquencies versus 901,000 subprime delinquencies.

    http://seekingalpha.com/article/93341-prime-foreclosures-now-greater-than-subprime
    "When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads." - Ron Paul
  • DriftingByTheStorm
    DriftingByTheStorm Posts: 8,684
    catefrances wrote:
    ... why cant they use it to pay off the mortgages of countless average joe americans? would that not stimulate the economy as previous money used to pay off the banks and other mortgage holders is freed up for mindless spending. :D


    HAIL HAIL THE FREE MARKET.

    They COULD do that, but it wouldn't really affect the immediate systemic issues the financial sector faces.

    Also, it would be an even WORSE "investment" than buying junk paper.
    At least in the proposed scenario the Federal Government has some bleak prospect of turning an eventual profit, and a slightly greater potential for breaking even or maybe even coming in at a sligh loss on all this.

    Remember, the aim of this bill is to act a TEMPORARY purchaser of illiquid investments, and then HOPEFULLY at some future point RE-SELL that paper back to the markets at large.

    Once you give some poor shmuck in a failed mortage $300,000 you can just kiss it good bye, though.

    And what if they use it as a downpayment on a 3,000,000 dollar home instead?

    They already screwed the pooch once.
    Why give em another chance?
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  • catefrances
    catefrances Posts: 29,003
    pjalive21 wrote:
    why bail people out who went in over their heads getting mortgages they knew they couldnt afford, its just as much on the home owner as it is the lender who stupidly gave them the loan

    i just bought a house and did it in a way where it was within my means, i dont get how other people couldnt use that common sense

    why bail out financial institutuions who knew the rules going in and recklessly gamble with peoples money as if it twas their own?

    HAIL HAIL THE FREE MARKET.
    hear my name
    take a good look
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  • catefrances
    catefrances Posts: 29,003
    DriftingByTheStorm wrote:
    They COULD do that, but it wouldn't really affect the immediate systemic issues the financial sector faces.

    Also, it would be an even WORSE "investment" than buying junk paper.
    At least in the proposed scenario the Federal Government has some bleak prospect of turning an eventual profit, and a slightly greater potential for breaking even or maybe even coming in at a sligh loss on all this.

    Remember, the aim of this bill is to act a TEMPORARY purchaser of illiquid investments, and then HOPEFULLY at some future point RE-SELL that paper back to the markets at large.

    Once you give some poor shmuck in a failed mortage $300,000 you can just kiss it good bye, though.

    And what if they use it as a downpayment on a 3,000,000 dollar home instead?

    They already screwed the pooch once.
    Why give em another chance?

    you dont give some poor schmuck $300,000. you pay off their mortgage 'free and clear'. the home owner uses previous money earmarked to repay the banks for mindless economy stimulation and the lending institution gets the borrowed price to 'invest', reaping whatever rewards it can.

    of course ,you could always give the financial sector billions of dollars and take your chances yet again that theyll do the responsible thing. :rolleyes:
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  • Pacomc79
    Pacomc79 Posts: 9,404
    there are a lot of mortgage lenders that should be jailed for allowing people to sign mortgages they know they couldn't afford, and then sell that bad debt off as quickly as they took it on.

    In fact, a french revolution style public execution of a few hundred might do the financial industry good.
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  • catefrances
    catefrances Posts: 29,003
    Pacomc79 wrote:
    there are a lot of mortgage lenders that should be jailed for allowing people to sign mortgages they know they couldn't afford, and then sell that bad debt off as quickly as they took it on.

    In fact, a french revolution style public execution of a few hundred might do the financial industry good.

    hmm dont think the french revolution was an altruistic action on behalf of the french populace in pursuit of an egalitarian society. twas just another action in support of the best interests of the middle class.
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  • decides2dream
    decides2dream Posts: 14,975
    we don't HAVe any of this 'money'...so i say forget it all. let the markets self-correct, let the chips fall where they may...and may it be a lesson learned for all. if any kind of money is going to be spent on anything.....it should be used to pay down the ridiculous debt we're in over this ridiculous war.....and let's move on from it!
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  • g under p
    g under p Surfing The far side of THE Sombrero Galaxy Posts: 18,253
    Give a million dollars to each citizen and let them bail themselves out. Leave it at that but then again the bankers would be really pissed. :(

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  • catefrances
    catefrances Posts: 29,003
    decides2dream wrote:
    we don't HAVe any of this 'money'...so i say forget it all. let the markets self-correct, let the chips fall where they may...and may it be a lesson learned for all. if any kind of money is going to be spent on anything.....it should be used to pay down the ridiculous debt we're in over this ridiculous war.....and let's move on from it!


    and this is what amuses me most about this whole debacle. the talking heads speak of financial rescue knowing they must put the country into more debt in order that the debt already owed be... what...? the fact that a rescue plan is even being considered flies in the face of what capitalism and the free market stands for.
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  • mammasan
    mammasan Posts: 5,655
    decides2dream wrote:
    we don't HAVe any of this 'money'...so i say forget it all. let the markets self-correct, let the chips fall where they may...and may it be a lesson learned for all. if any kind of money is going to be spent on anything.....it should be used to pay down the ridiculous debt we're in over this ridiculous war.....and let's move on from it!

    I'm not saying I agree with the bail out but you do understand the ramifications of doing nothing. We haven't felt the impact of this mess yet but trust me it's coming. Inaction would cause a complete credit freeze in the market. We could possibly be looking at massive job lose, massive revenue lose for local, state and federal government while simultaneuosly increase the amount of people needing government assistance. More foreclosures which equal less revenue for towns/cities. Cuts in education and basic services such as garbage collection, fire and police, etc… It would not be a pretty sight and the end cost of such a disaster would far exceed $700 billion.
    "When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads." - Ron Paul
  • catefrances
    catefrances Posts: 29,003
    mammasan wrote:
    I'm not saying I agree with the bail out but you do understand the ramifications of doing nothing. We haven't felt the impact of this mess yet but trust me it's coming. Inaction would cause a complete credit freeze in the market. We could possibly be looking at massive job lose, massive revenue lose for local, state and federal government while simultaneuosly increase the amount of people needing government assistance. More foreclosures which equal less revenue for towns/cities. Cuts in education and basic services such as garbage collection, fire and police, etc… It would not be a pretty sight and the end cost of such a disaster would far exceed $700 billion.

    too bad. thats the way the game is played. investment is basically gambling. you make the wrong decisions suck it up. this is what the free market and capitalism is all about. you live and learn. you play and gamble with what you dont have you have to take responsibilty for your actions. no oen bails out joe average when he declares bankruptcy, why should the fat cats be bailed out?

    are you saying that profits are private whilst fuck ups such as this which average joe had no part of, should be public? youll have to forgive me if i think thats bullshit.
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  • blackredyellow
    blackredyellow Posts: 5,888
    catefrances wrote:
    too bad. thats the way the game is played. investment is basically gambling. you make the wrong decisions suck it up. this is what the free market and capitalism is all about. you live and learn. you play and gamble with what you dont have you have to take responsibilty for your actions. no oen bails out joe average when he declares bankruptcy, why should the fat cats be bailed out?

    are you saying that profits are private whilst fuck ups such as this which average joe had no part of, should be public? youll have to forgive me if i think thats bullshit.

    But the negative effects will be felt more by innocent people, not people who made the wrong decision.
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  • decides2dream
    decides2dream Posts: 14,975
    mammasan wrote:
    I'm not saying I agree with the bail out but you do understand the ramifications of doing nothing. We haven't felt the impact of this mess yet but trust me it's coming. Inaction would cause a complete credit freeze in the market. We could possibly be looking at massive job lose, massive revenue lose for local, state and federal government while simultaneuosly increase the amount of people needing government assistance. More foreclosures which equal less revenue for towns/cities. Cuts in education and basic services such as garbage collection, fire and police, etc… It would not be a pretty sight and the end cost of such a disaster would far exceed $700 billion.



    honestly, no..i don't.
    it seems to me there is no great concensus amongst all economists of what the 'right' thing to do is. so i remain unconvinced. perhaps 'something' needs to be done, and maybe it does require some bailout.....but given the financial picture as of right now.....i really don't see how further borrowing from peter to pay paul, or bailout paul as it were :p...will truly benefit the country, or the economy...long-term. however, this is just opinion on what i've been reading/seeing....which is filled with contradictory information...and sure, i am no economist.
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  • g under p
    g under p Surfing The far side of THE Sombrero Galaxy Posts: 18,253
    John McCain's Fireside Chat she says it best I thnik.

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  • mammasan
    mammasan Posts: 5,655
    catefrances wrote:
    too bad. thats the way the game is played. investment is basically gambling. you make the wrong decisions suck it up. this is what the free market and capitalism is all about. you live and learn. you play and gamble with what you dont have you have to take responsibilty for your actions. no oen bails out joe average when he declares bankruptcy, why should the fat cats be bailed out?

    are you saying that profits are private whilst fuck ups such as this which average joe had no part of, should be public? youll have to forgive me if i think thats bullshit.

    No I don't believe that profits should be private while losses public. I guess you missed my first line when I said that I wasn't saying that the bail out was a good idea. All I was stating was that inaction is an even worse idea. A total credit freeze will have little effect on the wealthy CEOs who had a hand in this mess. They have tons of money. It will however have a devastating effect on the middle and lower class. So innocent people who had no hand in this mess will be effected the most by a market collapse. Normally i would agree that we should let the market self correct but it is far too late for that. and even though you and the people you know may not be feeling it yet, trust me they will feel it if nothing is done.
    "When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads." - Ron Paul
  • mammasan
    mammasan Posts: 5,655
    decides2dream wrote:
    honestly, no..i don't.
    it seems to me there is no great concensus amongst all economists of what the 'right' thing to do is. so i remain unconvinced. perhaps 'something' needs to be done, and maybe it does require some bailout.....but given the financial picture as of right now.....i really don't see how further borrowing from peter to pay paul, or bailout paul as it were :p...will truly benefit the country, or the economy...long-term. however, this is just opinion on what i've been reading/seeing....which is filled with contradictory information...and sure, i am no economist.


    I will say it again, I DID NOT SAY THAT THE BAIL OUT WAS A GOOD IDEA!!! I was responding to a post that stated that we should just let the shit hit the fan. That, in my opinion, is not an option because inaction is 100x worse than the bail out.
    "When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads." - Ron Paul
  • catefrances
    catefrances Posts: 29,003
    blackredyellow wrote:
    But the negative effects will be felt more by innocent people, not people who made the wrong decision.

    well then you punish those fools who made the decisions instead of allowing them to get away with golden handshakes.

    dont you understand? this is how capitalism and the free market works. tis not about picking and choosing who to bail out and when. tis about going for it and either fucking up or making it work.c learly at this point, tis not working. the economy must be allowed to fall and settle 'naturally', not allowing to to be propped up by the government(which is the people btw) for whatever bullshit reason. this is not about 'you' individually or the body politic, its about the middle class and the fat cats being able to maintain their privilege.
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  • blackredyellow
    blackredyellow Posts: 5,888
    catefrances wrote:
    well then you punish those fools who made the decisions instead of allowing them to get away with golden handshakes.

    Ok, then the million dollar question is how do we do that without screwing you, me and the rest of the responsible citizens?
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  • mammasan
    mammasan Posts: 5,655
    catefrances wrote:
    well then you punish those fools who made the decisions instead of allowing them to get away with golden handshakes.

    dont you understand? this is how capitalism and the free market works. tis not about picking and choosing who to bail out and when. tis about going for it and either fucking up or making it work.c learly at this point, tis not working. the economy must be allowed to fall and settle 'naturally', not allowing to to be propped up by the government(which is the people btw) for whatever bullshit reason. this is not about 'you' individually or the body politic, its about the middle class and the fat cats being able to maintain their privilege.

    The market has been propped up by the government since the Federal Reserve started adjusting interest rates.
    "When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads." - Ron Paul

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