Concerning truth, beliefs and all that.

OutOfBreath
OutOfBreath Posts: 1,804
edited September 2007 in A Moving Train
Here is a passage from Pratchett's book "Hogfather" from the discworld setting. The exchange is from the end of the book where DEATH and Susan have just saved the hogfather from dying. (A sort of father christmas character. The hogfather turned out to be originally a sun god, that had to branch out. Hence the sun analogy)
Susan questions DEATH about the importance of what they just did. I really like the words of DEATH here. (as I usually do, as DEATH is a great character.) I was reminded of this after watching the tv special. (recommended)

Here goes:
S: What would have happened if I hadn’t?
D: WHAT WOULD HAVE HAPPENED IF YOU HADN’T SAVED HIM?
S: Yes.
D: THE SUN WOULD NOT HAVE RISEN.
S: Then what would have happened?
D: A MERE BALL OF FLAMING GAS WOULD HAVE ILLUMINATED THE WORLD.
S: All right, I’m not stupid. You’re saying that humans need fantasies to make life bearable.
D: NO. HUMANS NEED FANTASY TO BE HUMAN. TO BE THE PLACE WHERE THE FALLING ANGEL MEETS THE RISING APE
S: With tooth fairies? Hogfathers?
D: YES, THAT’S PRACTICE. YOU HAVE TO START OUT LEARNING TO BELIEVE THE LITTLE LIES.
S: So we can believe the big ones?
D: YES. JUSTICE, MERCY, DUTY, THAT SORT OF THING.
S: They’re not the same at all.
D: YOU THINK SO?
THEN TAKE THE UNIVERSE AND GRIND IT TO THE FINEST POWDER, AND SIEVE IT THROUGH THE FINEST SIEVE, AND THEN SHOW ME ONE ATOM OF JUSTICE, ONE MOLECULE OF MERCY AND YET…
YOU ACT AS IF THERE IS SOME IDEAL ORDER IN THE WORLD. AS IF THERE IS SOME RIGHTNESS IN THE UNIVERSE BY WHICH IT MAY BE JUDGED.
S: But people have to believe that. What’s the point?
D: YOU NEED TO BELIEVE IN THINGS THAT ARE NOT TRUE. HOW ELSE CAN THEY BECOME?

Pratchett is also the man behind the awesome quote:

"Fantasy is an exercise bicycle for the mind. It might not take you anywhere, but it tones up the muscles that can. Of course, I could be wrong."
Terry Pratchett

Enjoy.

Peace
Dan
"YOU [humans] NEED TO BELIEVE IN THINGS THAT AREN'T TRUE. HOW ELSE CAN THEY BECOME?" - Death

"Every judgment teeters on the brink of error. To claim absolute knowledge is to become monstrous. Knowledge is an unending adventure at the edge of uncertainty." - Frank Herbert, Dune, 1965
Post edited by Unknown User on
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Comments

  • gue_barium
    gue_barium Posts: 5,515
    Good stuff.

    And lord knows this will be the only time I read this post. Chances are next time I see it, it will be 4 or 5 pages long.
    all posts by ©gue_barium are protected under US copyright law and are not to be reproduced, exchanged or sold
    except by express written permission of ©gue_barium, the author.
  • angelica
    angelica Posts: 6,038
    OutOfBreath wrote:
    Here is a passage from Pratchett's book "Hogfather" from the discworld setting. The exchange is from the end of the book where DEATH and Susan have just saved the hogfather from dying. (A sort of father christmas character. The hogfather turned out to be originally a sun god, that had to branch out. Hence the sun analogy)
    Susan questions DEATH about the importance of what they just did. I really like the words of DEATH here. (as I usually do, as DEATH is a great character.) I was reminded of this after watching the tv special. (recommended)

    Here goes:
    S: What would have happened if I hadn’t?
    D: WHAT WOULD HAVE HAPPENED IF YOU HADN’T SAVED HIM?
    S: Yes.
    D: THE SUN WOULD NOT HAVE RISEN.
    S: Then what would have happened?
    D: A MERE BALL OF FLAMING GAS WOULD HAVE ILLUMINATED THE WORLD.
    S: All right, I’m not stupid. You’re saying that humans need fantasies to make life bearable.
    D: NO. HUMANS NEED FANTASY TO BE HUMAN. TO BE THE PLACE WHERE THE FALLING ANGEL MEETS THE RISING APE
    S: With tooth fairies? Hogfathers?
    D: YES, THAT’S PRACTICE. YOU HAVE TO START OUT LEARNING TO BELIEVE THE LITTLE LIES.
    S: So we can believe the big ones?
    D: YES. JUSTICE, MERCY, DUTY, THAT SORT OF THING.
    S: They’re not the same at all.
    D: YOU THINK SO?
    THEN TAKE THE UNIVERSE AND GRIND IT TO THE FINEST POWDER, AND SIEVE IT THROUGH THE FINEST SIEVE, AND THEN SHOW ME ONE ATOM OF JUSTICE, ONE MOLECULE OF MERCY AND YET…
    YOU ACT AS IF THERE IS SOME IDEAL ORDER IN THE WORLD. AS IF THERE IS SOME RIGHTNESS IN THE UNIVERSE BY WHICH IT MAY BE JUDGED.
    S: But people have to believe that. What’s the point?
    D: YOU NEED TO BELIEVE IN THINGS THAT ARE NOT TRUE. HOW ELSE CAN THEY BECOME?

    Pratchett is also the man behind the awesome quote:

    "Fantasy is an exercise bicycle for the mind. It might not take you anywhere, but it tones up the muscles that can. Of course, I could be wrong."
    Terry Pratchett

    Enjoy.

    Peace
    Dan
    Thanks for that! Inspiration can move mountains. If it moves us to do amazing things and be all we can be, I'm all for it. :)


    Lol gue.....I think I'm with you............ *ducks out quickly*
    "The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr

    http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta

    Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
  • OutOfBreath
    OutOfBreath Posts: 1,804
    Nah, looks like this thread is safe. The war is still over in the soul-thread. :)

    I just felt the need to quote this, as I feel it sums up a lot of things that I hold true, and is also confirmed through sociology. The power of belief and the untrue in shaping our world(s). And even labelling it essential.

    Peace
    Dan
    "YOU [humans] NEED TO BELIEVE IN THINGS THAT AREN'T TRUE. HOW ELSE CAN THEY BECOME?" - Death

    "Every judgment teeters on the brink of error. To claim absolute knowledge is to become monstrous. Knowledge is an unending adventure at the edge of uncertainty." - Frank Herbert, Dune, 1965
  • catefrances
    catefrances Posts: 29,003
    and when you discover the little lies are just that, you can still maintain 'belief' in the big ones.
    hear my name
    take a good look
    this could be the day
    hold my hand
    lie beside me
    i just need to say
  • OutOfBreath
    OutOfBreath Posts: 1,804
    catefrances wrote:
    and when you discover the little lies are just that, you can still maintain 'belief' in the big ones.
    hehe, was that a critical, or a supportive remark? Can't tell. :)

    Anyways, so much of what we do in everyday lives are essentially lies, in the sense that they are not true outside of our own heads. But they are also necessary for our greater social order to function at all.

    But the payoff is that if enough people believe in the lies, then they actually gain some truth to them. Or as one of my favorite quotes go: "What is perceived as real, become real in it's consequences".

    Peace
    Dan
    "YOU [humans] NEED TO BELIEVE IN THINGS THAT AREN'T TRUE. HOW ELSE CAN THEY BECOME?" - Death

    "Every judgment teeters on the brink of error. To claim absolute knowledge is to become monstrous. Knowledge is an unending adventure at the edge of uncertainty." - Frank Herbert, Dune, 1965
  • Ahnimus
    Ahnimus Posts: 10,560
    Yes, I agree. Some aspects of culture or arguably necessary for the simple-minded to cooperate. Or perhaps not the simple-minded, but those that would be called "Defectors" in game theory.

    Some of us survive quite well knowing that not a grain of justice exists in the universe, physically. Justice and the like are human social constructs, but they are necessary for society to exist at all. Other social animals invoke patterns of regulation similar to human justice.

    But we should not become blind to the complexity of our concept, justice. Zero-tolerance laws are terrible at promoting justice, since they ignore all antecedents.

    As stated before, I like the ideas Clarence Darrow described in his book Crime: It's cause and treatment. Though some of them may not work out practically, in theory they attempt to resolve some of the problems with modern judicial systems.

    Imagination and creativity are great for postulating possibilities, but unless these postulates function in reality, they are dead-ends, they go no where. Phlogiston, Vitalism and Cartesian Dualism are examples of these dead-ends. They were championed by so many for so long that they suffered an unecessarily lengthy demise, which in-turn stifled progress in the right direction. Sadly Cartesian Dualism is still alive today and still stifling progress.
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • catefrances
    catefrances Posts: 29,003
    OutOfBreath wrote:
    hehe, was that a critical, or a supportive remark? Can't tell. :)

    Anyways, so much of what we do in everyday lives are essentially lies, in the sense that they are not true outside of our own heads. But they are also necessary for our greater social order to function at all.

    But the payoff is that if enough people believe in the lies, then they actually gain some truth to them. Or as one of my favorite quotes go: "What is perceived as real, become real in it's consequences".

    Peace
    Dan

    sometimes our entire lives can be a lie.

    supportive, i believe. :)
    hear my name
    take a good look
    this could be the day
    hold my hand
    lie beside me
    i just need to say
  • Ahnimus
    Ahnimus Posts: 10,560
    Apparently the flat-earth theory is still alive and well.

    Atleast The View's co-host Sherri Shephard isn't sure if it's flat or round.

    http://news.aol.com/entertainment/television/tv-news-story/ar/_a/view-co-host-unsure-if-world-is-round/20070921144509990001

    Steven Hawking tested the flat earth theory by travelling around the world. He's also been out to space. According to him, the earth is round.
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • catefrances
    catefrances Posts: 29,003
    Ahnimus wrote:
    Apparently the flat-earth theory is still alive and well.

    Atleast The View's co-host Sherri Shephard isn't sure if it's flat or round.

    http://news.aol.com/entertainment/television/tv-news-story/ar/_a/view-co-host-unsure-if-world-is-round/20070921144509990001

    Steven Hawking tested the flat earth theory by travelling around the world. He's also been out to space. According to him, the earth is round.

    and people listen to this sherri shephard? that's the scary part.
    hear my name
    take a good look
    this could be the day
    hold my hand
    lie beside me
    i just need to say
  • Ahnimus
    Ahnimus Posts: 10,560
    catefrances wrote:
    and people listen to this sherri shephard? that's the scary part.

    I bet The View gets better ratings than the science network. err, is there even a science network? I know Roger Bingham's TSNTV.org is called The Science Network but on almost 1000 channels I can't find it on Roger's Cable.
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • catefrances
    catefrances Posts: 29,003
    Ahnimus wrote:
    I bet The View gets better ratings than the science network. err, is there even a science network? I know Roger Bingham's TSNTV.org is called The Science Network but on almost 1000 channels I can't find it on Roger's Cable.

    science. bah! what has science ever done for me. ;):D
    hear my name
    take a good look
    this could be the day
    hold my hand
    lie beside me
    i just need to say
  • Ahnimus
    Ahnimus Posts: 10,560
    catefrances wrote:
    science. bah! what has science ever done for me. ;):D

    Gave your mother tips for a good prenatal environment, made for a speedy delivery, vaccinated you against common fatal diseases, keeps your food and water healthy, provides you with entertainment, transportation, security, etc...

    Just about everything.
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • OutOfBreath
    OutOfBreath Posts: 1,804
    Ahnimus wrote:
    Gave your mother tips for a good prenatal environment, made for a speedy delivery, vaccinated you against common fatal diseases, keeps your food and water healthy, provides you with entertainment, transportation, security, etc...

    Just about everything.

    Including a lot of the newest bad stuff as well. Two-faced coin science. ;)

    Peace
    Dan
    "YOU [humans] NEED TO BELIEVE IN THINGS THAT AREN'T TRUE. HOW ELSE CAN THEY BECOME?" - Death

    "Every judgment teeters on the brink of error. To claim absolute knowledge is to become monstrous. Knowledge is an unending adventure at the edge of uncertainty." - Frank Herbert, Dune, 1965
  • jamie uk
    jamie uk Posts: 3,812
    catefrances wrote:
    science. bah! what has science ever done for me. ;):D
    Quite right Cate, and also, what did the Romans ever do for us ??

    http://youtube.com/watch?v=l4EygLtChOg
    I came, I saw, I concurred.....
  • Ahnimus
    Ahnimus Posts: 10,560
    OutOfBreath wrote:
    Including a lot of the newest bad stuff as well. Two-faced coin science. ;)

    Peace
    Dan

    Science is the source of Good, but Science had to make some things bad so that we could tell the difference. Also, what we thing is bad might be good in the grand scheme of Science. Who are we to say? We are too primative to comprehend Science.
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • OutOfBreath
    OutOfBreath Posts: 1,804
    Ahnimus wrote:
    Yes, I agree. Some aspects of culture or arguably necessary for the simple-minded to cooperate. Or perhaps not the simple-minded, but those that would be called "Defectors" in game theory.
    No, required for all. It's called "norms", "common sense", "manners", "ideologies" and so on and so forth. Necessary for society.
    Some of us survive quite well knowing that not a grain of justice exists in the universe, physically. Justice and the like are human social constructs, but they are necessary for society to exist at all. Other social animals invoke patterns of regulation similar to human justice.
    The point is that there is no objective justice, we make it.
    But we should not become blind to the complexity of our concept, justice. Zero-tolerance laws are terrible at promoting justice, since they ignore all antecedents.
    Depends on what you mean by justice, and for that matter what society at large believes about justice.
    As stated before, I like the ideas Clarence Darrow described in his book Crime: It's cause and treatment. Though some of them may not work out practically, in theory they attempt to resolve some of the problems with modern judicial systems.
    In some cases, sure.
    Imagination and creativity are great for postulating possibilities, but unless these postulates function in reality, they are dead-ends, they go no where. Phlogiston, Vitalism and Cartesian Dualism are examples of these dead-ends. They were championed by so many for so long that they suffered an unecessarily lengthy demise, which in-turn stifled progress in the right direction. Sadly Cartesian Dualism is still alive today and still stifling progress.
    Creativity isn't a one-way street. You have to take the good with the bad. There is no way to assure that only one kind of creativity prevails. What is "right" direction in terms of creativity? And how do you know that some of the central concepts of contemporary science, won't meet the same fate in 50-100 years as for instance Vitalism? The creative element, which is crucial and really the heart of science depends on beliefs and untested ideas to get started at all.

    The main point of the thread was to highlight this constructivist element of our beliefs. As DEATH put it: "YOU NEED TO BELIEVE IN THINGS THAT ARE NOT TRUE. HOW ELSE CAN THEY BECOME?".

    Peace
    Dan
    "YOU [humans] NEED TO BELIEVE IN THINGS THAT AREN'T TRUE. HOW ELSE CAN THEY BECOME?" - Death

    "Every judgment teeters on the brink of error. To claim absolute knowledge is to become monstrous. Knowledge is an unending adventure at the edge of uncertainty." - Frank Herbert, Dune, 1965
  • OutOfBreath
    OutOfBreath Posts: 1,804
    Ahnimus wrote:
    Science is the source of Good, but Science had to make some things bad so that we could tell the difference. Also, what we thing is bad might be good in the grand scheme of Science. Who are we to say? We are too primative to comprehend Science.
    mmmkay....

    Peace
    Dan
    "YOU [humans] NEED TO BELIEVE IN THINGS THAT AREN'T TRUE. HOW ELSE CAN THEY BECOME?" - Death

    "Every judgment teeters on the brink of error. To claim absolute knowledge is to become monstrous. Knowledge is an unending adventure at the edge of uncertainty." - Frank Herbert, Dune, 1965
  • catefrances
    catefrances Posts: 29,003
    Ahnimus wrote:
    Gave your mother tips for a good prenatal environment, made for a speedy delivery, vaccinated you against common fatal diseases, keeps your food and water healthy, provides you with entertainment, transportation, security, etc...

    Just about everything.

    good prenatal care? you mean thalidomide?

    hmm and it was science that had me strapped to machines whilst in labour with my oldest child. and science that had me unaware of just how close i was to delivering my second child cause i was overdosed. but i worked it out by the time my son was born. i did it drug free and technology free. my youngest dauhgter practically delivered herself.
    hear my name
    take a good look
    this could be the day
    hold my hand
    lie beside me
    i just need to say
  • catefrances
    catefrances Posts: 29,003
    Ahnimus wrote:
    Science is the source of Good, but Science had to make some things bad so that we could tell the difference. Also, what we thing is bad might be good in the grand scheme of Science. Who are we to say? We are too primative to comprehend Science.

    how can we be too primitive to comprehend it if we come up with it? are you saying we don't know what the fuck we're doing? or is that just a convenient 'we had no idea when we started.....' excuse when things go wrong?
    hear my name
    take a good look
    this could be the day
    hold my hand
    lie beside me
    i just need to say
  • Ahnimus
    Ahnimus Posts: 10,560
    catefrances wrote:
    good prenatal care? you mean thalidomide?

    hmm and it was science that had me strapped to machines whilst in labour with my oldest child. and science that had me unaware of just how close i was to delivering my second child cause i was overdosed. but i worked it out by the time my son was born. i did it drug free and technology free. my youngest dauhgter practically delivered herself.

    You'd still probably have died by the age of 3 without modern science.

    The infant mortality rate has hugely declined since ancient times, due largely to medical sciences.

    As the argument goes for God, God is the ultimate source of good and bad things only exist so that we can see that. I used the same argument for science above, in jest of course.

    I agree with Dan that you must take the bad with the good. But believing in something that is knowably false is called a delusion. I don't particularly want to be deluded. I can work every day, pay my bills and obey the law without ever believing the universe is just or even that society is just.
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire

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