No, the fundamental lie is that there is anything like justice outside of human (collective) imagination. The universe happens (you, a determinist won't deny me that). The universe is largely not a moral thing. Justice is dependant on morals which depend on humans (or other conscious entities in the universe that may have developed similar things). In order to establish something, the belief in it must be there from before.
You are fundamentally making a moral argument here, although backing it up with rats. You maintain the establishment of justice, meaning you believe in justice on face value without underpinnings. (although you can make them if you really try) Hence, you are about realizing a lie. Which is what all people in the world are trying to do. Politics is notorious for it. Belief in lies leads to establishing them and making them reality.
Peace
Dan
I only believe justice is necessary because of my knowledge of neuroscience. I believe in justice with underpinnings. Because I deny any claim that justice is a fundamental part of the universe. It must be substantiated by some facts. But I believe in Justice, not punishment. Which is a lot different.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
I only believe justice is necessary because of my knowledge of neuroscience. I believe in justice with underpinnings. Because I deny any claim that justice is a fundamental part of the universe. It must be substantiated by some facts. But I believe in Justice, not punishment. Which is a lot different.
I will withhold judgement of this post until neuroscience takes care of Kiefer Sutherland.
I only believe justice is necessary because of my knowledge of neuroscience. I believe in justice with underpinnings. Because I deny any claim that justice is a fundamental part of the universe. It must be substantiated by some facts. But I believe in Justice, not punishment. Which is a lot different.
And that's fine. But that is a value judgement and has little to do with neuroscience in itself. That you base your belief and want for justice in neuroscience is fine, but it is still a value judgement, and hence, according to the lines laid down by DEATH, essentially a lie.
There is no "need" for justice outside human value judgements.
Peace
Dan
"YOU [humans] NEED TO BELIEVE IN THINGS THAT AREN'T TRUE. HOW ELSE CAN THEY BECOME?" - Death
"Every judgment teeters on the brink of error. To claim absolute knowledge is to become monstrous. Knowledge is an unending adventure at the edge of uncertainty." - Frank Herbert, Dune, 1965
Here is a passage from Pratchett's book "Hogfather" from the discworld setting. The exchange is from the end of the book where DEATH and Susan have just saved the hogfather from dying. (A sort of father christmas character. The hogfather turned out to be originally a sun god, that had to branch out. Hence the sun analogy)
Susan questions DEATH about the importance of what they just did. I really like the words of DEATH here. (as I usually do, as DEATH is a great character.) I was reminded of this after watching the tv special. (recommended)
Here goes:
S: What would have happened if I hadn’t? WHAT WOULD HAVE HAPPENED IF YOU HADN’T SAVED HIM?
S: Yes. THE SUN WOULD NOT HAVE RISEN.
S: Then what would have happened? A MERE BALL OF FLAMING GAS WOULD HAVE ILLUMINATED THE WORLD.
S: All right, I’m not stupid. You’re saying that humans need fantasies to make life bearable. NO. HUMANS NEED FANTASY TO BE HUMAN. TO BE THE PLACE WHERE THE FALLING ANGEL MEETS THE RISING APE
S: With tooth fairies? Hogfathers? YES, THAT’S PRACTICE. YOU HAVE TO START OUT LEARNING TO BELIEVE THE LITTLE LIES.
S: So we can believe the big ones? YES. JUSTICE, MERCY, DUTY, THAT SORT OF THING.
S: They’re not the same at all. YOU THINK SO?
THEN TAKE THE UNIVERSE AND GRIND IT TO THE FINEST POWDER, AND SIEVE IT THROUGH THE FINEST SIEVE, AND THEN SHOW ME ONE ATOM OF JUSTICE, ONE MOLECULE OF MERCY AND YET…
YOU ACT AS IF THERE IS SOME IDEAL ORDER IN THE WORLD. AS IF THERE IS SOME RIGHTNESS IN THE UNIVERSE BY WHICH IT MAY BE JUDGED.
S: But people have to believe that. What’s the point? YOU NEED TO BELIEVE IN THINGS THAT ARE NOT TRUE. HOW ELSE CAN THEY BECOME?
Pratchett is also the man behind the awesome quote:
"Fantasy is an exercise bicycle for the mind. It might not take you anywhere, but it tones up the muscles that can. Of course, I could be wrong."
Terry Pratchett
Enjoy.
Peace
Dan
Thats just given me goosebumps, I forgot how good that book is and how meaningful those words were to me. Thanks
I've gotta read that book again.
Been to this many PJ shows: Reading 2006 London 2007 Manchester & London 2009 Dublin, Belfast, London, Nijmegen & Berlin 2010 Manchester 1 & Manchester 2 2012...
... and I still think Drive-By Truckers are better.
The 5th Circuit District Cortex is now in session.
I'm not sure why I'm laughing really, but that one tickled my funnybone, coming after the other random posts.
It's Monty Pythonish absurdly funny. I dunno.
Peace
Dan
"YOU [humans] NEED TO BELIEVE IN THINGS THAT AREN'T TRUE. HOW ELSE CAN THEY BECOME?" - Death
"Every judgment teeters on the brink of error. To claim absolute knowledge is to become monstrous. Knowledge is an unending adventure at the edge of uncertainty." - Frank Herbert, Dune, 1965
Thats just given me goosebumps, I forgot how good that book is and how meaningful those words were to me. Thanks
I've gotta read that book again.
That's what I'm thinking too. Pratchett has a way with words. He excels at being funny but also deeply serious at the same time.
Peace
Dan
"YOU [humans] NEED TO BELIEVE IN THINGS THAT AREN'T TRUE. HOW ELSE CAN THEY BECOME?" - Death
"Every judgment teeters on the brink of error. To claim absolute knowledge is to become monstrous. Knowledge is an unending adventure at the edge of uncertainty." - Frank Herbert, Dune, 1965
Comments
I only believe justice is necessary because of my knowledge of neuroscience. I believe in justice with underpinnings. Because I deny any claim that justice is a fundamental part of the universe. It must be substantiated by some facts. But I believe in Justice, not punishment. Which is a lot different.
I will withhold judgement of this post until neuroscience takes care of Kiefer Sutherland.
all posts by ©gue_barium are protected under US copyright law and are not to be reproduced, exchanged or sold
except by express written permission of ©gue_barium, the author.
all posts by ©gue_barium are protected under US copyright law and are not to be reproduced, exchanged or sold
except by express written permission of ©gue_barium, the author.
That depends on the pre-trial neuron hearing.
all posts by ©gue_barium are protected under US copyright law and are not to be reproduced, exchanged or sold
except by express written permission of ©gue_barium, the author.
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
all posts by ©gue_barium are protected under US copyright law and are not to be reproduced, exchanged or sold
except by express written permission of ©gue_barium, the author.
There is no "need" for justice outside human value judgements.
Peace
Dan
"Every judgment teeters on the brink of error. To claim absolute knowledge is to become monstrous. Knowledge is an unending adventure at the edge of uncertainty." - Frank Herbert, Dune, 1965
all posts by ©gue_barium are protected under US copyright law and are not to be reproduced, exchanged or sold
except by express written permission of ©gue_barium, the author.
Thats just given me goosebumps, I forgot how good that book is and how meaningful those words were to me. Thanks
I've gotta read that book again.
... and I still think Drive-By Truckers are better.
It's Monty Pythonish absurdly funny. I dunno.
Peace
Dan
"Every judgment teeters on the brink of error. To claim absolute knowledge is to become monstrous. Knowledge is an unending adventure at the edge of uncertainty." - Frank Herbert, Dune, 1965
Peace
Dan
"Every judgment teeters on the brink of error. To claim absolute knowledge is to become monstrous. Knowledge is an unending adventure at the edge of uncertainty." - Frank Herbert, Dune, 1965
he's profound and yet you don't even realise it until it's too late. but by then he's got you.
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say