Concerning truth, beliefs and all that.

OutOfBreath

Here is a passage from Pratchett's book "Hogfather" from the discworld setting. The exchange is from the end of the book where DEATH and Susan have just saved the hogfather from dying. (A sort of father christmas character. The hogfather turned out to be originally a sun god, that had to branch out. Hence the sun analogy)
Susan questions DEATH about the importance of what they just did. I really like the words of DEATH here. (as I usually do, as DEATH is a great character.) I was reminded of this after watching the tv special. (recommended)

Here goes:

---

S: What would have happened if I hadn’t?
WHAT WOULD HAVE HAPPENED IF YOU HADN’T SAVED HIM?
S: Yes.
THE SUN WOULD NOT HAVE RISEN.
S: Then what would have happened?
A MERE BALL OF FLAMING GAS WOULD HAVE ILLUMINATED THE WORLD.
S: All right, I’m not stupid. You’re saying that humans need fantasies to make life bearable.
NO. HUMANS NEED FANTASY TO BE HUMAN. TO BE THE PLACE WHERE THE FALLING ANGEL MEETS THE RISING APE
S: With tooth fairies? Hogfathers?
YES, THAT’S PRACTICE. YOU HAVE TO START OUT LEARNING TO BELIEVE THE LITTLE LIES.
S: So we can believe the big ones?
YES. JUSTICE, MERCY, DUTY, THAT SORT OF THING.
S: They’re not the same at all.
YOU THINK SO?
THEN TAKE THE UNIVERSE AND GRIND IT TO THE FINEST POWDER, AND SIEVE IT THROUGH THE FINEST SIEVE, AND THEN SHOW ME ONE ATOM OF JUSTICE, ONE MOLECULE OF MERCY AND YET…
YOU ACT AS IF THERE IS SOME IDEAL ORDER IN THE WORLD. AS IF THERE IS SOME RIGHTNESS IN THE UNIVERSE BY WHICH IT MAY BE JUDGED.
S: But people have to believe that. What’s the point?
YOU NEED TO BELIEVE IN THINGS THAT ARE NOT TRUE. HOW ELSE CAN THEY BECOME?

---

Pratchett is also the man behind the awesome quote:

"Fantasy is an exercise bicycle for the mind. It might not take you anywhere, but it tones up the muscles that can. Of course, I could be wrong."
Terry Pratchett

Enjoy.

Peace
Dan

gue_barium

Good stuff.

And lord knows this will be the only time I read this post. Chances are next time I see it, it will be 4 or 5 pages long.

angelica

OutOfBreath wrote:

Here is a passage from Pratchett's book "Hogfather" from the discworld setting. The exchange is from the end of the book where DEATH and Susan have just saved the hogfather from dying. (A sort of father christmas character. The hogfather turned out to be originally a sun god, that had to branch out. Hence the sun analogy)
Susan questions DEATH about the importance of what they just did. I really like the words of DEATH here. (as I usually do, as DEATH is a great character.) I was reminded of this after watching the tv special. (recommended)

Here goes:

---

S: What would have happened if I hadn’t?
WHAT WOULD HAVE HAPPENED IF YOU HADN’T SAVED HIM?
S: Yes.
THE SUN WOULD NOT HAVE RISEN.
S: Then what would have happened?
A MERE BALL OF FLAMING GAS WOULD HAVE ILLUMINATED THE WORLD.
S: All right, I’m not stupid. You’re saying that humans need fantasies to make life bearable.
NO. HUMANS NEED FANTASY TO BE HUMAN. TO BE THE PLACE WHERE THE FALLING ANGEL MEETS THE RISING APE
S: With tooth fairies? Hogfathers?
YES, THAT’S PRACTICE. YOU HAVE TO START OUT LEARNING TO BELIEVE THE LITTLE LIES.
S: So we can believe the big ones?
YES. JUSTICE, MERCY, DUTY, THAT SORT OF THING.
S: They’re not the same at all.
YOU THINK SO?
THEN TAKE THE UNIVERSE AND GRIND IT TO THE FINEST POWDER, AND SIEVE IT THROUGH THE FINEST SIEVE, AND THEN SHOW ME ONE ATOM OF JUSTICE, ONE MOLECULE OF MERCY AND YET…
YOU ACT AS IF THERE IS SOME IDEAL ORDER IN THE WORLD. AS IF THERE IS SOME RIGHTNESS IN THE UNIVERSE BY WHICH IT MAY BE JUDGED.
S: But people have to believe that. What’s the point?
YOU NEED TO BELIEVE IN THINGS THAT ARE NOT TRUE. HOW ELSE CAN THEY BECOME?

---

Pratchett is also the man behind the awesome quote:

"Fantasy is an exercise bicycle for the mind. It might not take you anywhere, but it tones up the muscles that can. Of course, I could be wrong."
Terry Pratchett

Enjoy.

Peace
Dan

Thanks for that! Inspiration can move mountains. If it moves us to do amazing things and be all we can be, I'm all for it.


Lol gue.....I think I'm with you............ *ducks out quickly*

OutOfBreath

Nah, looks like this thread is safe. The war is still over in the soul-thread.

I just felt the need to quote this, as I feel it sums up a lot of things that I hold true, and is also confirmed through sociology. The power of belief and the untrue in shaping our world(s). And even labelling it essential.

Peace
Dan

catefrances

and when you discover the little lies are just that, you can still maintain 'belief' in the big ones.

OutOfBreath

catefrances wrote:

and when you discover the little lies are just that, you can still maintain 'belief' in the big ones.

hehe, was that a critical, or a supportive remark? Can't tell.

Anyways, so much of what we do in everyday lives are essentially lies, in the sense that they are not true outside of our own heads. But they are also necessary for our greater social order to function at all.

But the payoff is that if enough people believe in the lies, then they actually gain some truth to them. Or as one of my favorite quotes go: "What is perceived as real, become real in it's consequences".

Peace
Dan

Ahnimus

Yes, I agree. Some aspects of culture or arguably necessary for the simple-minded to cooperate. Or perhaps not the simple-minded, but those that would be called "Defectors" in game theory.

Some of us survive quite well knowing that not a grain of justice exists in the universe, physically. Justice and the like are human social constructs, but they are necessary for society to exist at all. Other social animals invoke patterns of regulation similar to human justice.

But we should not become blind to the complexity of our concept, justice. Zero-tolerance laws are terrible at promoting justice, since they ignore all antecedents.

As stated before, I like the ideas Clarence Darrow described in his book Crime: It's cause and treatment. Though some of them may not work out practically, in theory they attempt to resolve some of the problems with modern judicial systems.

Imagination and creativity are great for postulating possibilities, but unless these postulates function in reality, they are dead-ends, they go no where. Phlogiston, Vitalism and Cartesian Dualism are examples of these dead-ends. They were championed by so many for so long that they suffered an unecessarily lengthy demise, which in-turn stifled progress in the right direction. Sadly Cartesian Dualism is still alive today and still stifling progress.

catefrances

OutOfBreath wrote:

hehe, was that a critical, or a supportive remark? Can't tell.

Anyways, so much of what we do in everyday lives are essentially lies, in the sense that they are not true outside of our own heads. But they are also necessary for our greater social order to function at all.

But the payoff is that if enough people believe in the lies, then they actually gain some truth to them. Or as one of my favorite quotes go: "What is perceived as real, become real in it's consequences".

Peace
Dan

sometimes our entire lives can be a lie.

supportive, i believe.

Ahnimus

Apparently the flat-earth theory is still alive and well.

Atleast The View's co-host Sherri Shephard isn't sure if it's flat or round.

http://news.aol.com/entertainment/television/tv-news-story/ar/_a/view-co-host-unsure-if-world-is-round/20070921144509990001

Steven Hawking tested the flat earth theory by travelling around the world. He's also been out to space. According to him, the earth is round.

catefrances

Ahnimus wrote:

Apparently the flat-earth theory is still alive and well.

Atleast The View's co-host Sherri Shephard isn't sure if it's flat or round.

http://news.aol.com/entertainment/television/tv-news-story/ar/_a/view-co-host-unsure-if-world-is-round/20070921144509990001

Steven Hawking tested the flat earth theory by travelling around the world. He's also been out to space. According to him, the earth is round.

and people listen to this sherri shephard? that's the scary part.

Ahnimus

catefrances wrote:

and people listen to this sherri shephard? that's the scary part.

I bet The View gets better ratings than the science network. err, is there even a science network? I know Roger Bingham's TSNTV.org is called The Science Network but on almost 1000 channels I can't find it on Roger's Cable.

catefrances

Ahnimus wrote:

I bet The View gets better ratings than the science network. err, is there even a science network? I know Roger Bingham's TSNTV.org is called The Science Network but on almost 1000 channels I can't find it on Roger's Cable.

science. bah! what has science ever done for me.

Ahnimus

catefrances wrote:

science. bah! what has science ever done for me.

Gave your mother tips for a good prenatal environment, made for a speedy delivery, vaccinated you against common fatal diseases, keeps your food and water healthy, provides you with entertainment, transportation, security, etc...

Just about everything.

OutOfBreath

Ahnimus wrote:

Gave your mother tips for a good prenatal environment, made for a speedy delivery, vaccinated you against common fatal diseases, keeps your food and water healthy, provides you with entertainment, transportation, security, etc...

Just about everything.

Including a lot of the newest bad stuff as well. Two-faced coin science.

Peace
Dan

jamie uk

catefrances wrote:

science. bah! what has science ever done for me.

Quite right Cate, and also, what did the Romans ever do for us ??

http://youtube.com/watch?v=l4EygLtChOg

Ahnimus

OutOfBreath wrote:

Including a lot of the newest bad stuff as well. Two-faced coin science.

Peace
Dan

Science is the source of Good, but Science had to make some things bad so that we could tell the difference. Also, what we thing is bad might be good in the grand scheme of Science. Who are we to say? We are too primative to comprehend Science.

OutOfBreath

Ahnimus wrote:

Yes, I agree. Some aspects of culture or arguably necessary for the simple-minded to cooperate. Or perhaps not the simple-minded, but those that would be called "Defectors" in game theory.

No, required for all. It's called "norms", "common sense", "manners", "ideologies" and so on and so forth. Necessary for society.

Some of us survive quite well knowing that not a grain of justice exists in the universe, physically. Justice and the like are human social constructs, but they are necessary for society to exist at all. Other social animals invoke patterns of regulation similar to human justice.

The point is that there is no objective justice, we make it.

But we should not become blind to the complexity of our concept, justice. Zero-tolerance laws are terrible at promoting justice, since they ignore all antecedents.

Depends on what you mean by justice, and for that matter what society at large believes about justice.

As stated before, I like the ideas Clarence Darrow described in his book Crime: It's cause and treatment. Though some of them may not work out practically, in theory they attempt to resolve some of the problems with modern judicial systems.

In some cases, sure.

Imagination and creativity are great for postulating possibilities, but unless these postulates function in reality, they are dead-ends, they go no where. Phlogiston, Vitalism and Cartesian Dualism are examples of these dead-ends. They were championed by so many for so long that they suffered an unecessarily lengthy demise, which in-turn stifled progress in the right direction. Sadly Cartesian Dualism is still alive today and still stifling progress.

Creativity isn't a one-way street. You have to take the good with the bad. There is no way to assure that only one kind of creativity prevails. What is "right" direction in terms of creativity? And how do you know that some of the central concepts of contemporary science, won't meet the same fate in 50-100 years as for instance Vitalism? The creative element, which is crucial and really the heart of science depends on beliefs and untested ideas to get started at all.

The main point of the thread was to highlight this constructivist element of our beliefs. As DEATH put it: "YOU NEED TO BELIEVE IN THINGS THAT ARE NOT TRUE. HOW ELSE CAN THEY BECOME?".

Peace
Dan

OutOfBreath

Ahnimus wrote:

Science is the source of Good, but Science had to make some things bad so that we could tell the difference. Also, what we thing is bad might be good in the grand scheme of Science. Who are we to say? We are too primative to comprehend Science.

mmmkay....

Peace
Dan

catefrances

Ahnimus wrote:

Gave your mother tips for a good prenatal environment, made for a speedy delivery, vaccinated you against common fatal diseases, keeps your food and water healthy, provides you with entertainment, transportation, security, etc...

Just about everything.

good prenatal care? you mean thalidomide?

hmm and it was science that had me strapped to machines whilst in labour with my oldest child. and science that had me unaware of just how close i was to delivering my second child cause i was overdosed. but i worked it out by the time my son was born. i did it drug free and technology free. my youngest dauhgter practically delivered herself.

catefrances

Ahnimus wrote:

Science is the source of Good, but Science had to make some things bad so that we could tell the difference. Also, what we thing is bad might be good in the grand scheme of Science. Who are we to say? We are too primative to comprehend Science.

how can we be too primitive to comprehend it if we come up with it? are you saying we don't know what the fuck we're doing? or is that just a convenient 'we had no idea when we started.....' excuse when things go wrong?

Ahnimus

catefrances wrote:

good prenatal care? you mean thalidomide?

hmm and it was science that had me strapped to machines whilst in labour with my oldest child. and science that had me unaware of just how close i was to delivering my second child cause i was overdosed. but i worked it out by the time my son was born. i did it drug free and technology free. my youngest dauhgter practically delivered herself.

You'd still probably have died by the age of 3 without modern science.

The infant mortality rate has hugely declined since ancient times, due largely to medical sciences.

As the argument goes for God, God is the ultimate source of good and bad things only exist so that we can see that. I used the same argument for science above, in jest of course.

I agree with Dan that you must take the bad with the good. But believing in something that is knowably false is called a delusion. I don't particularly want to be deluded. I can work every day, pay my bills and obey the law without ever believing the universe is just or even that society is just.

Cosmo

I think I often get mistaken as some one who hates religion. Not true... I simply choose to avoid religion for myself. I believe faith and hope are great human traits and people who find faith and hope in the church... more power to you.
And I don't believe Science has all of the answers, either. There are very few truths we can find in this Universe. Many of the truths, in both spiritual and scientific teachings are beliefs or theories, not the absolute truth. About the only thing I know as a truth, other than 1 + 1 = 2, is that anyone who claims to KNOW the truth... does not.
I also believe that I will never know within the span of my life. I don't know whether or not the answers will be revealed to me as I pass, alone, through Death's doorway. So, I look for it out here. I know I will never find it... but, I like the searching.

Ahnimus

But 1+1 is not 5.

Photons are received by your fovea and coded for projection to V1 (I believe) then the information gets recoded and sent to LGN, lateral something nucleus in the thalamus.

This is simple 1+1=2. But sometimes people will say "See, you don't see with your eyes, it's in your head." This can easily be proven by slicing one's optic nerve and then navigating a maze.

No one will ever do that without being insane.

catefrances

Ahnimus wrote:

You'd still probably have died by the age of 3 without modern science.

The infant mortality rate has hugely declined since ancient times, due largely to medical sciences.

As the argument goes for God, God is the ultimate source of good and bad things only exist so that we can see that. I used the same argument for science above, in jest of course.

I agree with Dan that you must take the bad with the good. But believing in something that is knowably false is called a delusion. I don't particularly want to be deluded. I can work every day, pay my bills and obey the law without ever believing the universe is just or even that society is just.

im not methuselah ryan. i was born in the 60s. LMAO!!

Ahnimus

Then there are those who say that all of reality is a product of our mind, it's what we make of it.

Anton-Babinski syndrome kind of negates that theory though. For here are subjects who actually believe they see full and well, but are actually sightless, their brains confabulated a visual perception that is not actually there and their interaction with the environment proves it.

The sudden development of bilateral occipital dysfunction is likely to produce transient physical and psychical effects in which mental confusion may be prominent. It may be some days before the relatives, or the nursing staff, tumble to the fact that the patient has actually become sightless. This is not only because the patient ordinarily does not volunteer the information that he has become blind, but he furthermore misleads his entourage by behaving and talking as though he were sighted. Attention is aroused however when the patient is found to collide with pieces of furniture, to fall over objects, and to experience difficulty in finding his way around. He may try to walk through a wall or through a closed door on his way from one room to another. Suspicion is still further alerted when he begins to describe people and objects around him which, as a matter of fact, are not there at all. Thus we have the twin symptoms of anosognosia (or lack of awareness of defect) and confabulation, the latter affecting both speech and behaviour. ("Modes of reaction to central blindness", in The Divine Banquet of the Brain, Raven, New York, 1979, p. 156)

This is the type of stuff that is largely ignored in favor of some of the more ludicrous beliefs.

OutOfBreath

Ahnimus wrote:

I can work every day, pay my bills and obey the law without ever believing the universe is just or even that society is just.

So why the activist streak? Unless you really believe in justice, you just dont think it is achieved yet. Which would mean that you are not as cool about injustice as you make yourself out to be. (Your views on criminalism, case in point)

Peace
Dan

Ahnimus

OutOfBreath wrote:

So why the activist streak? Unless you really believe in justice, you just dont think it is achieved yet. Which would mean that you are not as cool about injustice as you make yourself out to be. (Your views on criminalism, case in point)

Peace
Dan

I believe in an establishment of human justice, but I feel the current system is so far off the mark.

OutOfBreath

Ahnimus wrote:

I believe in an establishment of human justice, but I feel the current system is so far off the mark.

Precisely. You believe the lie, in order to realize it. (highly unscientific) And you may, if you get enough people with you on the lie. I could be somewhat favourable.

Peace
Dan

Ahnimus

OutOfBreath wrote:

Precisely. You believe the lie, in order to realize it. (highly unscientific) And you may, if you get enough people with you on the lie. I could be somewhat favourable.

Peace
Dan

It's not a lie. Justice is a lie. But the establishment of justice is not. It's a basic reward-response system that allows humans to learn. In rats, i think it was, VUM is the neuron that is involved in the dopamergenic reward-response system. It upregulates when a reward is received coupled to a stimulus in time by about 500 milliseconds. If the reward and stimulus disassociate then VUM downregulates or something. I don't remember exact details. But anyway, this is how the rat brain learns what is good for it and what is bad for it. Humans have similar systems, when we are punished, we learn that certain behaviours are bad for us. That is the important part.

The kind of justice involving burning witches, hanging homosexuals and tagging muslims, that is the lie. The lie is that people are intentionally evil.

OutOfBreath

Ahnimus wrote:

It's not a lie. Justice is a lie. But the establishment of justice is not. It's a basic reward-response system that allows humans to learn. In rats, i think it was, VUM is the neuron that is involved in the dopamergenic reward-response system. It upregulates when a reward is received coupled to a stimulus in time by about 500 milliseconds. If the reward and stimulus disassociate then VUM downregulates or something. I don't remember exact details. But anyway, this is how the rat brain learns what is good for it and what is bad for it. Humans have similar systems, when we are punished, we learn that certain behaviours are bad for us. That is the important part.

The kind of justice involving burning witches, hanging homosexuals and tagging muslims, that is the lie. The lie is that people are intentionally evil.

No, the fundamental lie is that there is anything like justice outside of human (collective) imagination. The universe happens (you, a determinist won't deny me that). The universe is largely not a moral thing. Justice is dependant on morals which depend on humans (or other conscious entities in the universe that may have developed similar things). In order to establish something, the belief in it must be there from before.

You are fundamentally making a moral argument here, although backing it up with rats. You maintain the establishment of justice, meaning you believe in justice on face value without underpinnings. (although you can make them if you really try) Hence, you are about realizing a lie. Which is what all people in the world are trying to do. Politics is notorious for it. Belief in lies leads to establishing them and making them reality.

Peace
Dan

catefrances

Ahnimus wrote:

The kind of justice involving burning witches, hanging homosexuals and tagging muslims, that is the lie. The lie is that people are intentionally evil.

but that's not justice. in these cases tis not that justice is a lie tis that justice is nonexistent.