Why Religion Must Remain A Part Of The World...

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  • sourdough
    sourdough Posts: 579
    I just lost my father. He was a very devout christian and firmly believed he is going to heaven. I really hope in many ways he was right and he is where he believed and wanted to be.

    However, I am not a christian. I don't wish to live forever. I relate to hippiemom very much. I love the fact that I have one shot at this and I better make it good. I feel very liberated knowing this and I love the fact that after I die, I return to the earth. Although our lives end, the billions of atoms that compose us are everlasting and they become water, air, rock, tree, animal and human. That to me is really a beautiful thought.

    Even if heaven is paradise and happy moments, it has no appeal to me. What good is happiness without sadness. It cannot occur without the other. Happiness, joy etc, is a relative term and even too much candy can make you sick.
  • hippiemom
    hippiemom Posts: 3,326
    eden wrote:
    I dont so much want to live forever as much as I cant grasp that my friends and fam are only mine for 70 or so years and then thats it. Especially my daughter.
    I grasp it because it's true. I don't accept the concept of "belief." Either I know something or I don't. What I know for certain is that I have a limited amount of time on this earth, as does everyone else. I don't have any reliable evidence that there's anything beyond this life. I'm completely comfortable with that. Reality suits me fine.
    "Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." ~ MLK, 1963
  • hippiemom
    hippiemom Posts: 3,326
    eden wrote:
    The one thing besides BIRTH ?!

    Also, I admire your elevated thinking, I really do, but- have you experienced the death of a child, mate, or beloved parent. I think it changes perception when people go through this.
    I have experienced the death of people who are very, very close to me (not the exact relationships you mention, but I was closer to some of the people I've lost than I am to my parents, for example, so that's all relative), and I have been very close to death myself on several occasions.
    "Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." ~ MLK, 1963
  • Infinity_Now
    Infinity_Now Posts: 188
    life, death - we all agree on

    after-life, though - let's consider, is "after-life" natural?

    after-life, an excuse for death - this is why religion must cease.

    after-life in the hands of those who control our lives, can lead to war, it is unjust and untrue.

    "Please dismantle these phantom limbs." - TMV
  • afan
    afan Posts: 59
    I think Religion helps those who feel they need it. I guess some people don't feel they need it. Some people have experiences in life that lead them a certain direction and that may very well be to Religion. As long as you aren't going around doing bodily harm to others or terrorizing, I don't see anything wrong with religion. I go to Church now. It gives you a sense of connection and family. It's a spiritual thing. I thought the point of religion was to promote peace and love and respect for God. That's religion to me anyway.
  • Gary Carter
    Gary Carter Posts: 14,077
    afan wrote:
    I thought the point of religion was to promote peace and love and respect for God. That's religion to me anyway.
    yes thats true,but when u have assholes on both sides using it the wrong the way,the good people of the religion get thrown in.just like i truly believe that all muslmis arent bad people.same goes for christans and jews.and to throw my 2cents on the death thing.death is death u live and u die plain and simple.u only get one life might as well live it to the fullest,while u can. death is a part of life people wake the fuck up.but i do know one is thing fo certin "I know I was born and I know that I'll die The in between is mine I am mine"
    Ron: I just don't feel like going out tonight
    Sammi: Wanna just break up?

  • catefrances
    catefrances Posts: 29,003
    eden wrote:
    The one thing besides BIRTH ?!

    Also, I admire your elevated thinking, I really do, but- have you experienced the death of a child, mate, or beloved parent. I think it changes perception when people go through this.

    i have. and i still remain an atheist. i find no less solace in the fact that for ones who have passed, their time is over, simply because i am irreligious. they shall remain alive in my heart and memory. i do not expect to 'see' them again when i die. why should i? and honestly what is it that Man does so wonderfully in this life that he should expect a reward such as an afterlife(if one believes it exists) when he denies it to the other creatures of the earth.
    i am not afraid of death nor do i expect anything more from my life once it is over. all i have is this life. and what i choose to do with that life is what defines me as a person. and it is mine to do with as i wish.
    hear my name
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  • OutOfBreath
    OutOfBreath Posts: 1,804
    eden wrote:
    Things that are part of the natural order of things are easy for our minds to come to terms with.

    Death is beyond human comprehension, and I (being a believer of intelligent design) think its because we were created with eternity as our destinies, until this changed along the line.

    If you are an evolutionist then its pointless even talking to each other.

    Depending on how much you buy into science, psychology and/or phenomenological philosophy it's really simple. Our minds doesn't "easily" grasp reality as it is, and our senses are easily fooled. Reality can be meaningless, brutal and incomprehensible. Something our minds are incapable of accepting, as the main functioning of our brain is making order. And it will seek order even if there really aren't any. Show a blot of ink to people, they will order it into an image. Show then a random rugged wall, they will find patterns and rough images.

    Humans cannot accept non-meaning. Non-meaning makes us powerless and vulnerable. Then it is much better to be able to attribute a natural disaster on god(s) anger and repent for our sins and wrongdoings for instance. That gives us room for action and finding meaning. We can't accept that we have no ultimate "meaning" so we will invent narratives, context and meaning for ourselves for comfort always. Religion being somewhat based in that, well, religion will always be there I think.

    I am not religious, but even I can't handle there not being any meaning behind my life and what I do. Realizing there is no ultimate meaning is a prime road to suicide for some people, as it really makes it hard to find a reason to go on. I recovered though, and found strength in making my own meaning. I also have some faith in the "divine" in some way, but not as a complete narrative and frame of thought, as a religion will have it.

    Death isn't beyond human comprehension. Meaninglessness is. And meaningless death also of course. We are meaning-making and order-making machines. In fact they both develop from the other. Can there be meaning without order, or order without meaning? But just because we're wired in such a way to see order, doesn't mean that there fundamentally is.

    Peace
    Dan
    "YOU [humans] NEED TO BELIEVE IN THINGS THAT AREN'T TRUE. HOW ELSE CAN THEY BECOME?" - Death

    "Every judgment teeters on the brink of error. To claim absolute knowledge is to become monstrous. Knowledge is an unending adventure at the edge of uncertainty." - Frank Herbert, Dune, 1965
  • catefrances
    catefrances Posts: 29,003
    OutOfBreath wrote:
    I am not religious, but even I can't handle there not being any meaning behind my life and what I do. Realizing there is no ultimate meaning is a prime road to suicide for some people, as it really makes it hard to find a reason to go on. I recovered though, and found strength in making my own meaning. I also have some faith in the "divine" in some way, but not as a complete narrative and frame of thought, as a religion will have it.

    Peace
    Dan

    the meaning your life has, is the meaning YOU choose to give it. and as you've said dan you have found that. what else is there.
    hear my name
    take a good look
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  • OutOfBreath
    OutOfBreath Posts: 1,804
    catefrances wrote:
    the meaning your life has, is the meaning YOU choose to give it. and as you've said dan you have found that. what else is there.
    What I forgot to include is that everyone, religious or not, make their own meaning. The difference is whether you accept a pre-made package or not.

    Peace
    Dan
    "YOU [humans] NEED TO BELIEVE IN THINGS THAT AREN'T TRUE. HOW ELSE CAN THEY BECOME?" - Death

    "Every judgment teeters on the brink of error. To claim absolute knowledge is to become monstrous. Knowledge is an unending adventure at the edge of uncertainty." - Frank Herbert, Dune, 1965
  • catefrances
    catefrances Posts: 29,003
    OutOfBreath wrote:
    What I forgot to include is that everyone, religious or not, make their own meaning. The difference is whether you accept a pre-made package or not.

    Peace
    Dan

    but wouldn't a pre-made package not be your own meaning?
    hear my name
    take a good look
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  • OutOfBreath
    OutOfBreath Posts: 1,804
    catefrances wrote:
    but wouldn't a pre-made package not be your own meaning?
    Certainly. My point was to focus on the choice that you nevertheless make, whether it is to follow a crowd, like for instance a religion, or try to construct it yourself. And most I guess are hybrids between the two of some kind.

    But we need meaning to function. And there are many ways to find it, of which religion can be one course.

    Peace
    Dan
    "YOU [humans] NEED TO BELIEVE IN THINGS THAT AREN'T TRUE. HOW ELSE CAN THEY BECOME?" - Death

    "Every judgment teeters on the brink of error. To claim absolute knowledge is to become monstrous. Knowledge is an unending adventure at the edge of uncertainty." - Frank Herbert, Dune, 1965
  • catefrances
    catefrances Posts: 29,003
    OutOfBreath wrote:
    Certainly. My point was to focus on the choice that you nevertheless make, whether it is to follow a crowd, like for instance a religion, or try to construct it yourself. And most I guess are hybrids between the two of some kind.

    But we need meaning to function. And there are many ways to find it, of which religion can be one course.

    Peace
    Dan

    indeed it can be one course.
    i think perhaps that adhering or trying to adhere to something as rigid as organised religion is often more difficult than people realise. and maybe we are not meant to adhere to it at all.
    and you are right, we do need meaning to function. but whose meaning do we choose?
    hear my name
    take a good look
    this could be the day
    hold my hand
    lie beside me
    i just need to say
  • OutOfBreath
    OutOfBreath Posts: 1,804
    catefrances wrote:
    indeed it can be one course.
    i think perhaps that adhering or trying to adhere to something as rigid as organised religion is often more difficult than people realise. and maybe we are not meant to adhere to it at all.
    and you are right, we do need meaning to function. but whose meaning do we choose?

    That, is indeed the question.

    Peace
    Dan
    "YOU [humans] NEED TO BELIEVE IN THINGS THAT AREN'T TRUE. HOW ELSE CAN THEY BECOME?" - Death

    "Every judgment teeters on the brink of error. To claim absolute knowledge is to become monstrous. Knowledge is an unending adventure at the edge of uncertainty." - Frank Herbert, Dune, 1965
  • cornnifer
    cornnifer Posts: 2,130
    hippiemom wrote:
    I don't accept the concept of "belief." Either I know something or I don't. .

    Do you KNOW that God does not exist? Or, do you BELIEVE that he does not? ;)
    "When all your friends and sedatives mean well but make it worse... better find yourself a place to level out."
  • catefrances
    catefrances Posts: 29,003
    cornnifer wrote:
    Do you KNOW that God does not exist? Or, do you BELIEVE that he does not? ;)

    interesting. in my mind, i KNOW he doesn't exist. how do i know that? i have seen no proof of his existence. i do not doubt my conviction one iota.
    hear my name
    take a good look
    this could be the day
    hold my hand
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  • hippiemom
    hippiemom Posts: 3,326
    cornnifer wrote:
    Do you KNOW that God does not exist? Or, do you BELIEVE that he does not? ;)
    I don't know. I behave as though he does not, because I haven't seen one shred of evidence that he does.
    "Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." ~ MLK, 1963
  • OutOfBreath
    OutOfBreath Posts: 1,804
    cornnifer wrote:
    Do you KNOW that God does not exist? Or, do you BELIEVE that he does not? ;)
    A paradox, on the surface. But that questions all knowledge basically, as one cannot prove what is not there one way or the other. It's a bit like trying to prove or disprove the question "Does peanuts fly when I'm not looking?" or the good old tree falling in the forest. You can't prove that peanuts dont fly when you're not looking, but one may deduce after careful study that it is highly unlikely. Same thing with God. No proof for his non-existence does not increase the probability of his existence.

    ;)

    Peace
    Dan
    "YOU [humans] NEED TO BELIEVE IN THINGS THAT AREN'T TRUE. HOW ELSE CAN THEY BECOME?" - Death

    "Every judgment teeters on the brink of error. To claim absolute knowledge is to become monstrous. Knowledge is an unending adventure at the edge of uncertainty." - Frank Herbert, Dune, 1965
  • Collin
    Collin Posts: 4,931
    eden wrote:
    Also, I admire your elevated thinking, I really do, but- have you experienced the death of a child, mate, or beloved parent. I think it changes perception when people go through this.

    I have experienced the death of both my grandparents on my mom's side, who I loved very very much, they raised me, they were always there for me...
    But I feel the same way about death as hippiemom, I really find comfort in the thought that I will someday cease to exist, I actually hope there is no afterlife (for me). I didn't always think about it this way, it actually changed after my grandparents died...
    THANK YOU, LOSTDAWG!


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  • catefrances
    catefrances Posts: 29,003
    OutOfBreath wrote:
    A paradox, on the surface. But that questions all knowledge basically, as one cannot prove what is not there one way or the other. It's a bit like trying to prove or disprove the question "Does peanuts fly when I'm not looking?" or the good old tree falling in the forest. You can't prove that peanuts dont fly when you're not looking, but one may deduce after careful study that it is highly unlikely. Same thing with God. No proof for his non-existence does not increase the probability of his existence.

    ;)

    Peace
    Dan

    this one does not perplex me. of course a tree falling in the forest makes a noise. Man is not the only creature with the ability to hear.
    hear my name
    take a good look
    this could be the day
    hold my hand
    lie beside me
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