Actually, that's wrong, humans just use different tricks to fight to keep teh species alicve.
Also, athiests are the only people who choose to account for their actions. Religious people are teh ones who use teh cop-out of blaming gods, fate etc.
Remember teh old bumper sticker, "I'm not perfect, just forgiven" ? What a crock of shit !! I'm not forgiven, unless I earn forgiveness.
Please back up your statements with science or logic, your "tricks" theory holds no water.
And your religious versus Atheist assertion is a generalization, thats why its logical to me that its more of a personality characterization.
Jesus was just an untreated schizophrenic, auditory hallucinations (thoughts arrive like butterflies), shambling walk, delusions of grandeur, poor hygeine, visual hallucinations, couldn't deny his beliefs even to save his life.
Poor man, and the compassionate religious people of the time nailed him to a cross. Bastards !!
Jesus was just an untreated schizophrenic, auditory hallucinations (thoughts arrive like butterflies), shambling walk, delusions of grandeur, poor hygeine, visual hallucinations, couldn't deny his beliefs even to save his life.
Poor man, and the compassionate religious people of the time nailed him to a cross. Bastards !!
Careful how you denegrate peoples belief systems and their God even, it just knocked you down about 10 pegs in a thinking persons mind, religious or atheist.
Please back up your statements with science or logic, your "tricks" theory holds no water.
And your religious versus Atheist assertion is a generalization, thats why its logical to me that its more of a personality characterization.
When I say "trick", I mean evolutionary strategies. Approaches like teeth and claws and fur coats are limited to specific situations. We use our brains and hands which are able to adapt to any given situation. The cockroach can't touch us for adaptability. Everest to the Equator, even outer space.
Eat six legged shorts, cockroach !!
And of course it was a generalization, that's why religion holds no more virtue than athiesm. An athiest can as easily be a good person as a Christian, as Christians can easily be evil.
In fact, I'm not sure that I have ever read accurate historical accounts of athiests burnig, mutilating and torturing in the name of non-belief, but I have surely seen Christians doing that.
I think your belief is easiest, because then we are not as accountable for things.
no. it is not easy being an atheist. and yes we are accountable. to ourselves. and that is, in my opinion, infinitely more so than being accountable to an absent God.
no. it is not easy being an atheist. and yes we are accountable. to ourselves. and that is, in my opinion, infinitely more so than being accountable to an absent God.
.
Im sure it is hard being Atheist in a Judeo-Christian society, I hope Im not coming off like I dont respect your beliefs.
But more and more people are becoming agnostic at least, and I feel like a minority that I believe in a higher power.
Anyway, I dont blame people, Most Organized religion is repulsive.
And I have never felt that the important things in life need to be a visual, Theres so much that we cant see that keeps us alive. Oxygen, Photosynthesis, etc. The fact God is a spirit thus we cant visualize him isnt hard for me to grasp.
Im sure it is hard being Atheist in a Judeo-Christian society, I hope Im not coming off like I dont respect your beliefs.
But more and more people are becoming agnostic at least, and I feel like a minority that I believe in a higher power.
Anyway, I dont blame people, Most Organized religion is repulsive.
And I have never felt that the important things in life need to be a visual, Theres so much that we cant see that keeps us alive. Oxygen, Photosynthesis, etc. The fact God is a spirit thus we cant visualize him isnt hard for me to grasp.
no eden. it is not hard being an atheist in a judeo-christian society. in fact with every passing day it becomes easier. and i do not have any 'beliefs' for you to disrespect.
a christian once accused me of being agnostic. i assured him ithere was no doubt in my conviction. still not sure if he gets it though.
hear my name
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
no eden. it is not hard being an atheist in a judeo-christian society. in fact with every passing day it becomes easier. and i do not have any 'beliefs' for you to disrespect.
a christian once accused me of being agnostic. i assured him ithere was no doubt in my conviction. still not sure if he gets it though.
Ixnay on the condescentionay fran.
YOU originally stated it "wasnt easy" being an Atheist, perhaps you got ahead of yourself.
But its that very intellect that makes it so obvious that we were meant for something higher, the alternitive makes no sense to me.
Read some scientific studies on the capacity of the human mind then generalize it as you do.
or maybe its simply that intellect blinds some to this idea of grandeuer and self-importance...to think we are better than other animals, etc...who are we in the grand design? how can we even know? i don't see the intellect as making anything *obvious*...nor the fact that the alternative makes no sense to you a compelling arguement either. what appears as us being superior, can merely all be a masquerade, and our own self-delusions. animals DO have the capacity to learn, many are higly intelligent, such as ourselves who ARE a part of the animal kingdom...but who is to say that human intelligence is the 'best' intelligence? if it's a god, well then, it's all circular logic at best, and bottomline....we just don't know b/c we are using our own highly subjective methods/opinions/ideas...in making that assessment.
i think it's great if some find meaning/serenity/happiness in religion...and i think it's great if others find the same without. i do not find 'belief' necessary.......but i am all for choice, and individual happiness. it's also clear one does not 'need' religion to lead a good life, a moral life, a life that cares for life, etc.
so no matter what.....i think we should all simply respect each other's belief systems, or lack there of, and the validity of all....b/c NO one knows with any certainty WHAT happens after this life, so why waste your time here arguing over it? seems ridiculous at best.
btw - i hardly find cosmo's post 'ignorant'...but more like, asking questions....perhaps simplistic, but maybe that's where this whole debate should lie. i think the biggest issue of religion, is the whole idea that one feels compelled to push their agenda on others, there is only one right way, one god/allah/supreme being, only one correct way to live/worship, etc. if all those of a religious nature would take a live and let live attitude, not try to force their belief systems on others, the world would be a better, more peaceful, place. let's worry about our own 'souls'...and let's make the focus of the global community to make THIS life peaceful and harmonious....and we can all worry/prepare/hope for our afterlife, or not, of our own free will. makes sense to me.
I think that people think I'm questioning God... I'm not. I'm questioning the religions that describes God to me. I think that God got it right and the religions that are supposed to teach us about His glory got it all wrong by tagging God with their own, human traits.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
I think that people think I'm questioning God... I'm not. I'm questioning the religions that describes God to me. I think that God got it right and the religions that are supposed to teach us about His glory got it all wrong by tagging God with their own, human traits.
I think that people think I'm questioning God... I'm not. I'm questioning the religions that describes God to me. I think that God got it right and the religions that are supposed to teach us about His glory got it all wrong by tagging God with their own, human traits.
well whenever one puts up any sort of discussion/questioning about god, it automatically seems to insinuate disbelief. :rolleyes:
me...i am agnostic. i tend to believe more than i disbelieve, and i find it difficult to fully seperate from my catholic upbringing, however...i tend more to think of the *universal* idea of god, energy, life force....nature.
i quote it endlessly b/c i think it's just that damn good. pjaddicted's sig:
i believe in god, except i call it nature.
anyway, i think our questioning IS a sign of the human intelligence, and i also agree...far too many of the worlds religion take a ' my way is right, follow this path or you'll rot in hell, convert all and save their souls, etc'......that just leaves a bad taste in my mouth. i respect your right to your beliefs, and even to share them, but don't preach...don't tell me or anyone else that we're *wrong*....etc.
YOU originally stated it "wasnt easy" being an Atheist, perhaps you got ahead of yourself.
there was no intentional condescension on my part.
my statement that being an atheist 'wasn't easy' was in regard to your comment that having an atheist belief, 'is easiest because then we are not as accountable for things'. when it is my opinion that having to answer to one's self is far from easy. however to me in the context of today's society it is easy to be an atheist. or perhaps i should have said not at all difficult.
hear my name
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
Again, I say that the opposite of the belief in something ridiculous is not necessarily the BELIEF in the absence of such. There is no reason to believe otherwise. It is up to YOU to prove the existence of god (cheese planet), rather than our mission to prove the absence of god.
Maybe you are trying to get into a war of semantics, I'm not sure, but it seems fairly obvious the difference between observable/known reality and what is mythology/belief.
Point is, the belief that God exists, and the belief that God does not exist are both BELIEFS. No war of semantics about it. Atheism is just as much a BELIEF as is theism. Your entitled to yours. It was never my intent here to suggest otherwise, and i certaintly wouldn't be so crass as to refer to your belief as absurd, nor would i ever compare a rational adult's belief in God to to a child's belief in Santa Claus, Garden fairies, or distant planets made of dairy products. Those comparisons are as ridiculous as they are insulting.
"When all your friends and sedatives mean well but make it worse... better find yourself a place to level out."
Point is, the belief that God exists, and the belief that God does not exist are both BELIEFS. No war of semantics about it. Atheism is just as much a BELIEF as is theism. Your entitled to yours. It was never my intent here to suggest otherwise, and i certaintly wouldn't be so crass as to refer to your belief as absurd, nor would i ever compare a rational adult's belief in God to to a child's belief in Santa Claus, Garden fairies, or distant planets made of dairy products. Those comparisons are as ridiculous as they are insulting.
If both are beliefs, then pretty much anything is belief. That is taking a radical relativist view. Something religious people rarely do. If you say peanuts can fly, and I say they don't, then it's on you to prove that they do. Absurd example perhaps, but that's the essence of it. (Besides, I like absurd examples as they are far more fun)
The one claiming something exists has the burden of proof. Hence belief in god and not believing in god are not equal beliefs. Belief in god requires proof if others are to be convinced. You can't prove something does not exist, only that something does exist. That's science.
So belief in god does not equate not believing in god. If you believe bacuase of proof you have experienced, ok. But unless you can share that proof, it takes more for others to believe something they have never seen exists, than believing that what they have never seen doesnt exist.
Peace
Dan
"YOU [humans] NEED TO BELIEVE IN THINGS THAT AREN'T TRUE. HOW ELSE CAN THEY BECOME?" - Death
"Every judgment teeters on the brink of error. To claim absolute knowledge is to become monstrous. Knowledge is an unending adventure at the edge of uncertainty." - Frank Herbert, Dune, 1965
Point is, the belief that God exists, and the belief that God does not exist are both BELIEFS. No war of semantics about it. Atheism is just as much a BELIEF as is theism. Your entitled to yours. It was never my intent here to suggest otherwise, and i certaintly wouldn't be so crass as to refer to your belief as absurd, nor would i ever compare a rational adult's belief in God to to a child's belief in Santa Claus, Garden fairies, or distant planets made of dairy products. Those comparisons are as ridiculous as they are insulting.
you know the moon's made of green cheese.
hear my name
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
religion is necessary to create some kind of order... even though some wars have been caused (indirectly or directly) by particular religions, at least the need for order & organization and regulation of rites, beliefs & culture was the first agenda in creating a system of belief...
plus, it adds color to a culture...
on the question concerning existensialism, i've never really explored whether i believe in an afterlife or not. not yet, because i'm busy trying to extract WORLDLY wisdom (not life-after-death wisdom) from various religios writings (by reading them in the right way, and not using these writings in forwarding my selfish needs, as some people do). This is why i believe religion gives us a sense of order in this WORLD...
Point is, the belief that God exists, and the belief that God does not exist are both BELIEFS. No war of semantics about it. Atheism is just as much a BELIEF as is theism. Your entitled to yours. It was never my intent here to suggest otherwise, and i certaintly wouldn't be so crass as to refer to your belief as absurd, nor would i ever compare a rational adult's belief in God to to a child's belief in Santa Claus, Garden fairies, or distant planets made of dairy products. Those comparisons are as ridiculous as they are insulting.
I did not comment on your beliefs. My comments were confined to my own thoughts on the matter, and to me there is no difference at all between santa, god, and garden fairies. All three are supernatural beings who have not revealed themselves to me and I therefore have no reason to behave as if they were real. I have exactly as much evidence of god as I have of flying peanuts and cheese planets, so I'd have to be a little touched in the head to build my life around god, wouldn't I? That is not the same as saying that YOU are a little touched in the head, as you claim to have evidence. I'm curious as to the nature of this evidence that apparently can't be shared, and how it can properly be called "evidence," but if it's good enough for you and you're not trying to convert me, then we're both happy and that's what matters.
I can't say I understand where this hypersensitivity on matters of religion comes from. We can argue politics or philosophy or taste in music all day long in the most forceful language and no one thinks that's in any way inappropriate as long as we don't stoop to name calling and such, but for some reason we're expected to pussy-foot around where religion is concerned out of fear of being disrespectful or insulting. Why is that? If I think your views on the war are irrational and I point out all the reasons why I think that, it's considered a proper debate and you will likely come back at me defending your views and pointing out where mine don't make sense. Why should religious opinions be exempt from debate? If I think it's nonsense I'm going to say so, and of course I expect those who think atheism is nonsense to say so as well ... and if they can do so using absurd examples, all the better.
"Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." ~ MLK, 1963
I did not comment on your beliefs. My comments were confined to my own thoughts on the matter, and to me there is no difference at all between santa, god, and garden fairies. All three are supernatural beings who have not revealed themselves to me and I therefore have no reason to behave as if they were real. I have exactly as much evidence of god as I have of flying peanuts and cheese planets, so I'd have to be a little touched in the head to build my life around god, wouldn't I? That is not the same as saying that YOU are a little touched in the head, as you claim to have evidence. I'm curious as to the nature of this evidence that apparently can't be shared, and how it can properly be called "evidence," but if it's good enough for you and you're not trying to convert me, then we're both happy and that's what matters.
I can't say I understand where this hypersensitivity on matters of religion comes from. We can argue politics or philosophy or taste in music all day long in the most forceful language and no one thinks that's in any way inappropriate as long as we don't stoop to name calling and such, but for some reason we're expected to pussy-foot around where religion is concerned out of fear of being disrespectful or insulting. Why is that? If I think your views on the war are irrational and I point out all the reasons why I think that, it's considered a proper debate and you will likely come back at me defending your views and pointing out where mine don't make sense. Why should religious opinions be exempt from debate? If I think it's nonsense I'm going to say so, and of course I expect those who think atheism is nonsense to say so as well ... and if they can do so using absurd examples, all the better.
I've said it a billion times. You can build your life around what ever you want. Don't kid yourself, however, its a just as much a belief as mine is. I don't care if ours aren't the same. The point is, i'm respectful of that. If you don't see how comparing someone's theistic faith to Santa, Easter Bunnies, Tooth Fairies, Garden Fairies, cheese planets or flying peanuts is blatantly insulting, then i must say, i'm a little disappointed. i've always considered you to be a cut above the crowd here. As such, i guess i hold you to a little higher standard.
As far as evidence is concerned, i've had that discussion here countless times, always with the same results, i present what i think is evidence TO ME and within three posts i have everyone calling me, for all practical purposes, stupid, without responding to any of the points or offering any counter thoughts. If you want to have a respectful conversation about it, then, lets do the damn thing. You and i both know it won't happen, however. Besides convincing you, or anyone else for that matter, to adopt a theistic worldview, was never my intention with any of my posts in this thread.
Hypersensitivity? My ass. i once stated an opinion here that those who see absolutely no evidence of God "simply are refusing to look", and was BLASTED for it. Don't give me some line about being hypersensitive. Being respectful does not equate to "pussyfooting". i guess its all fun and games until someone offends YOU.
"When all your friends and sedatives mean well but make it worse... better find yourself a place to level out."
The point is, i'm respectful of that. If you don't see how comparing someone's theistic faith to Santa, Easter Bunnies, Tooth Fairies, Garden Fairies, cheese planets or flying peanuts is blatantly insulting, then i must say, i'm a little disappointed..
Santa, Easter bunnies ... I can see how that can be insulting because there is no normal adult who believes in those... What about aliens, though, there are lots of sane adults who believe in them, who believe they have been kidnapped etc. Is it insulting to compare the belief in god to the belief in aliens? If so, I think you are being a bit hollier than thou...
I honestly don't see how my disbelieve in something is a belief. I guess we just look at things differently. I'll try to exlain later on...
Santa, Easter bunnies ... I can see how that can be insulting because there is no normal adult who believes in those... What about aliens, though, there are lots of sane adults who believe in them, who believe they have been kidnapped etc. Is it insulting to compare the belief in god to the belief in aliens? If so, I think you are being a bit hollier than thou...
I honestly don't see how my disbelieve in something is a belief. I guess we just look at things differently. I'll try to exlain later on...
The probability of aliens existing is very high. The probability of god existing is almost null.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
How does one calculate the probability of the existence of aliens or god?
Well, in order for a god to exist and be all-powerful, god's level of omnipotence can not be measured. For example, if omnipotence was measured on a scale from 1 to 10, he could not be 10 or anything less. Because being 10 means that god has a finite power, which by definition god has infinite power. So his level of omnipotence must be 9.999~ which is not all-powerful. Basically god is infinite meaning not finite, where as Aliens are very finite and there is a lot of video footage of alien craft and hundreds of millions of whitnesses. The probability in all the universe of there being one creator of all things, next to some other lifeforms from a different galaxy. I'd say strongly the probability of alien life is far superior than the probability of a god.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
I honestly don't see how my disbelieve in something is a belief. I guess we just look at things differently. I'll try to exlain later on...
i honestly don't see what is so hard (or so damned imflamatory for that matter) about this! i BELIEVE God exists. You BELIEVE he doesn't. What is so hard about that? There is so semantics issue. There is no splitting of atoms. There is no brain surgery.
i guess from now on i should tell people that i DISBELIEVE the notion that God does not exist. That way my theism is no longer just a belief. Right?
"When all your friends and sedatives mean well but make it worse... better find yourself a place to level out."
Well, in order for a god to exist and be all-powerful, god's level of omnipotence can not be measured. For example, if omnipotence was measured on a scale from 1 to 10, he could not be 10 or anything less. Because being 10 means that god has a finite power, which by definition god has infinite power. So his level of omnipotence must be 9.999~ which is not all-powerful. .
Ahhhh. A mathematical twist to the omnipotence paradox. In all due respect, it is even less impressive than the original. Omnipotence can't be measured on a scale of 1-10, or 1-20, or 1- 1,000,000. Thats like trying to measure a level of infinity on a scale of 1-10. Doesn't even make sense.
"When all your friends and sedatives mean well but make it worse... better find yourself a place to level out."
i honestly don't see what is so hard (or so damned imflamatory for that matter) about this! i BELIEVE God exists. You BELIEVE he doesn't. What is so hard about that? There is so semantics issue. There is no splitting of atoms. There is no brain surgery.
i guess from now on i should tell people that i DISBELIEVE the notion that God does not exist. That way my theism is no longer just a belief. Right?
I can't explain myself properly so I will refrain from trying, it will only upset you.
Ahhhh. A mathematical twist to the omnipotence paradox. In all due respect, it is even less impressive than the original. Omnipotence can't be measured on a scale of 1-10, or 1-20, or 1- 1,000,000. Thats like trying to measure a level of infinity on a scale of 1-10. Doesn't even make sense.
Exactly, infinity doesn't make sense. You can endlessly divide a number in half. So for there to be an omnipotent being, it would have to be infinite and not make any sense. I think any infinite being would implode from it's own confusing existing.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
Exactly, infinity doesn't make sense. You can endlessly divide a number in half. So for there to be an omnipotent being, it would have to be infinite and not make any sense. I think any infinite being would implode from it's own confusing existing.
The mathematical concept of infinity makes perfect sense. What doesn't make sense is your crude attempt at a philosophical trap. The paradox your going for doesn't hold up in its original form, and it most certainly doesn't hold up in this rendition.
"When all your friends and sedatives mean well but make it worse... better find yourself a place to level out."
The mathematical concept of infinity makes perfect sense. What doesn't make sense is your crude attempt at a philosophical trap. The paradox your going for doesn't hold up in its original form, and it most certainly doesn't hold up in this rendition.
Sure it does, I'm proving that an infinite thing is less likely to exist than a finite thing.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
Comments
Please back up your statements with science or logic, your "tricks" theory holds no water.
And your religious versus Atheist assertion is a generalization, thats why its logical to me that its more of a personality characterization.
Poor man, and the compassionate religious people of the time nailed him to a cross. Bastards !!
Careful how you denegrate peoples belief systems and their God even, it just knocked you down about 10 pegs in a thinking persons mind, religious or atheist.
When I say "trick", I mean evolutionary strategies. Approaches like teeth and claws and fur coats are limited to specific situations. We use our brains and hands which are able to adapt to any given situation. The cockroach can't touch us for adaptability. Everest to the Equator, even outer space.
Eat six legged shorts, cockroach !!
And of course it was a generalization, that's why religion holds no more virtue than athiesm. An athiest can as easily be a good person as a Christian, as Christians can easily be evil.
In fact, I'm not sure that I have ever read accurate historical accounts of athiests burnig, mutilating and torturing in the name of non-belief, but I have surely seen Christians doing that.
no. it is not easy being an atheist. and yes we are accountable. to ourselves. and that is, in my opinion, infinitely more so than being accountable to an absent God.
.
YEAH!!! that's me then.
i knew following the ways of The Force would come in handy one day.
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
But more and more people are becoming agnostic at least, and I feel like a minority that I believe in a higher power.
Anyway, I dont blame people, Most Organized religion is repulsive.
And I have never felt that the important things in life need to be a visual, Theres so much that we cant see that keeps us alive. Oxygen, Photosynthesis, etc. The fact God is a spirit thus we cant visualize him isnt hard for me to grasp.
no eden. it is not hard being an atheist in a judeo-christian society. in fact with every passing day it becomes easier. and i do not have any 'beliefs' for you to disrespect.
a christian once accused me of being agnostic. i assured him ithere was no doubt in my conviction. still not sure if he gets it though.
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
Ixnay on the condescentionay fran.
YOU originally stated it "wasnt easy" being an Atheist, perhaps you got ahead of yourself.
or maybe its simply that intellect blinds some to this idea of grandeuer and self-importance...to think we are better than other animals, etc...who are we in the grand design? how can we even know? i don't see the intellect as making anything *obvious*...nor the fact that the alternative makes no sense to you a compelling arguement either. what appears as us being superior, can merely all be a masquerade, and our own self-delusions. animals DO have the capacity to learn, many are higly intelligent, such as ourselves who ARE a part of the animal kingdom...but who is to say that human intelligence is the 'best' intelligence? if it's a god, well then, it's all circular logic at best, and bottomline....we just don't know b/c we are using our own highly subjective methods/opinions/ideas...in making that assessment.
i think it's great if some find meaning/serenity/happiness in religion...and i think it's great if others find the same without. i do not find 'belief' necessary.......but i am all for choice, and individual happiness. it's also clear one does not 'need' religion to lead a good life, a moral life, a life that cares for life, etc.
so no matter what.....i think we should all simply respect each other's belief systems, or lack there of, and the validity of all....b/c NO one knows with any certainty WHAT happens after this life, so why waste your time here arguing over it? seems ridiculous at best.
btw - i hardly find cosmo's post 'ignorant'...but more like, asking questions....perhaps simplistic, but maybe that's where this whole debate should lie. i think the biggest issue of religion, is the whole idea that one feels compelled to push their agenda on others, there is only one right way, one god/allah/supreme being, only one correct way to live/worship, etc. if all those of a religious nature would take a live and let live attitude, not try to force their belief systems on others, the world would be a better, more peaceful, place. let's worry about our own 'souls'...and let's make the focus of the global community to make THIS life peaceful and harmonious....and we can all worry/prepare/hope for our afterlife, or not, of our own free will. makes sense to me.
*edits for my usual pathetic typos.
Let's just breathe...
I am myself like you somehow
Hail, Hail!!!
Word.
well whenever one puts up any sort of discussion/questioning about god, it automatically seems to insinuate disbelief. :rolleyes:
me...i am agnostic. i tend to believe more than i disbelieve, and i find it difficult to fully seperate from my catholic upbringing, however...i tend more to think of the *universal* idea of god, energy, life force....nature.
i quote it endlessly b/c i think it's just that damn good. pjaddicted's sig:
i believe in god, except i call it nature.
anyway, i think our questioning IS a sign of the human intelligence, and i also agree...far too many of the worlds religion take a ' my way is right, follow this path or you'll rot in hell, convert all and save their souls, etc'......that just leaves a bad taste in my mouth. i respect your right to your beliefs, and even to share them, but don't preach...don't tell me or anyone else that we're *wrong*....etc.
Let's just breathe...
I am myself like you somehow
there was no intentional condescension on my part.
my statement that being an atheist 'wasn't easy' was in regard to your comment that having an atheist belief, 'is easiest because then we are not as accountable for things'. when it is my opinion that having to answer to one's self is far from easy. however to me in the context of today's society it is easy to be an atheist. or perhaps i should have said not at all difficult.
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
Point is, the belief that God exists, and the belief that God does not exist are both BELIEFS. No war of semantics about it. Atheism is just as much a BELIEF as is theism. Your entitled to yours. It was never my intent here to suggest otherwise, and i certaintly wouldn't be so crass as to refer to your belief as absurd, nor would i ever compare a rational adult's belief in God to to a child's belief in Santa Claus, Garden fairies, or distant planets made of dairy products. Those comparisons are as ridiculous as they are insulting.
The one claiming something exists has the burden of proof. Hence belief in god and not believing in god are not equal beliefs. Belief in god requires proof if others are to be convinced. You can't prove something does not exist, only that something does exist. That's science.
So belief in god does not equate not believing in god. If you believe bacuase of proof you have experienced, ok. But unless you can share that proof, it takes more for others to believe something they have never seen exists, than believing that what they have never seen doesnt exist.
Peace
Dan
"Every judgment teeters on the brink of error. To claim absolute knowledge is to become monstrous. Knowledge is an unending adventure at the edge of uncertainty." - Frank Herbert, Dune, 1965
you know the moon's made of green cheese.
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
plus, it adds color to a culture...
on the question concerning existensialism, i've never really explored whether i believe in an afterlife or not. not yet, because i'm busy trying to extract WORLDLY wisdom (not life-after-death wisdom) from various religios writings (by reading them in the right way, and not using these writings in forwarding my selfish needs, as some people do). This is why i believe religion gives us a sense of order in this WORLD...
I can't say I understand where this hypersensitivity on matters of religion comes from. We can argue politics or philosophy or taste in music all day long in the most forceful language and no one thinks that's in any way inappropriate as long as we don't stoop to name calling and such, but for some reason we're expected to pussy-foot around where religion is concerned out of fear of being disrespectful or insulting. Why is that? If I think your views on the war are irrational and I point out all the reasons why I think that, it's considered a proper debate and you will likely come back at me defending your views and pointing out where mine don't make sense. Why should religious opinions be exempt from debate? If I think it's nonsense I'm going to say so, and of course I expect those who think atheism is nonsense to say so as well ... and if they can do so using absurd examples, all the better.
I've said it a billion times. You can build your life around what ever you want. Don't kid yourself, however, its a just as much a belief as mine is. I don't care if ours aren't the same. The point is, i'm respectful of that. If you don't see how comparing someone's theistic faith to Santa, Easter Bunnies, Tooth Fairies, Garden Fairies, cheese planets or flying peanuts is blatantly insulting, then i must say, i'm a little disappointed. i've always considered you to be a cut above the crowd here. As such, i guess i hold you to a little higher standard.
As far as evidence is concerned, i've had that discussion here countless times, always with the same results, i present what i think is evidence TO ME and within three posts i have everyone calling me, for all practical purposes, stupid, without responding to any of the points or offering any counter thoughts. If you want to have a respectful conversation about it, then, lets do the damn thing. You and i both know it won't happen, however. Besides convincing you, or anyone else for that matter, to adopt a theistic worldview, was never my intention with any of my posts in this thread.
Hypersensitivity? My ass. i once stated an opinion here that those who see absolutely no evidence of God "simply are refusing to look", and was BLASTED for it. Don't give me some line about being hypersensitive. Being respectful does not equate to "pussyfooting". i guess its all fun and games until someone offends YOU.
Santa, Easter bunnies ... I can see how that can be insulting because there is no normal adult who believes in those... What about aliens, though, there are lots of sane adults who believe in them, who believe they have been kidnapped etc. Is it insulting to compare the belief in god to the belief in aliens? If so, I think you are being a bit hollier than thou...
I honestly don't see how my disbelieve in something is a belief. I guess we just look at things differently. I'll try to exlain later on...
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The probability of aliens existing is very high. The probability of god existing is almost null.
How does one calculate the probability of the existence of aliens or god?
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Well, in order for a god to exist and be all-powerful, god's level of omnipotence can not be measured. For example, if omnipotence was measured on a scale from 1 to 10, he could not be 10 or anything less. Because being 10 means that god has a finite power, which by definition god has infinite power. So his level of omnipotence must be 9.999~ which is not all-powerful. Basically god is infinite meaning not finite, where as Aliens are very finite and there is a lot of video footage of alien craft and hundreds of millions of whitnesses. The probability in all the universe of there being one creator of all things, next to some other lifeforms from a different galaxy. I'd say strongly the probability of alien life is far superior than the probability of a god.
i honestly don't see what is so hard (or so damned imflamatory for that matter) about this! i BELIEVE God exists. You BELIEVE he doesn't. What is so hard about that? There is so semantics issue. There is no splitting of atoms. There is no brain surgery.
i guess from now on i should tell people that i DISBELIEVE the notion that God does not exist. That way my theism is no longer just a belief. Right?
Ahhhh. A mathematical twist to the omnipotence paradox. In all due respect, it is even less impressive than the original. Omnipotence can't be measured on a scale of 1-10, or 1-20, or 1- 1,000,000. Thats like trying to measure a level of infinity on a scale of 1-10. Doesn't even make sense.
I can't explain myself properly so I will refrain from trying, it will only upset you.
I disagree with you, though.
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Exactly, infinity doesn't make sense. You can endlessly divide a number in half. So for there to be an omnipotent being, it would have to be infinite and not make any sense. I think any infinite being would implode from it's own confusing existing.
The mathematical concept of infinity makes perfect sense. What doesn't make sense is your crude attempt at a philosophical trap. The paradox your going for doesn't hold up in its original form, and it most certainly doesn't hold up in this rendition.
Won't upset me.
Sure it does, I'm proving that an infinite thing is less likely to exist than a finite thing.