but wouldn't a pre-made package not be your own meaning?
Certainly. My point was to focus on the choice that you nevertheless make, whether it is to follow a crowd, like for instance a religion, or try to construct it yourself. And most I guess are hybrids between the two of some kind.
But we need meaning to function. And there are many ways to find it, of which religion can be one course.
Peace
Dan
"YOU [humans] NEED TO BELIEVE IN THINGS THAT AREN'T TRUE. HOW ELSE CAN THEY BECOME?" - Death
"Every judgment teeters on the brink of error. To claim absolute knowledge is to become monstrous. Knowledge is an unending adventure at the edge of uncertainty." - Frank Herbert, Dune, 1965
Certainly. My point was to focus on the choice that you nevertheless make, whether it is to follow a crowd, like for instance a religion, or try to construct it yourself. And most I guess are hybrids between the two of some kind.
But we need meaning to function. And there are many ways to find it, of which religion can be one course.
Peace
Dan
indeed it can be one course.
i think perhaps that adhering or trying to adhere to something as rigid as organised religion is often more difficult than people realise. and maybe we are not meant to adhere to it at all.
and you are right, we do need meaning to function. but whose meaning do we choose?
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indeed it can be one course.
i think perhaps that adhering or trying to adhere to something as rigid as organised religion is often more difficult than people realise. and maybe we are not meant to adhere to it at all.
and you are right, we do need meaning to function. but whose meaning do we choose?
That, is indeed the question.
Peace
Dan
"YOU [humans] NEED TO BELIEVE IN THINGS THAT AREN'T TRUE. HOW ELSE CAN THEY BECOME?" - Death
"Every judgment teeters on the brink of error. To claim absolute knowledge is to become monstrous. Knowledge is an unending adventure at the edge of uncertainty." - Frank Herbert, Dune, 1965
Do you KNOW that God does not exist? Or, do you BELIEVE that he does not?
A paradox, on the surface. But that questions all knowledge basically, as one cannot prove what is not there one way or the other. It's a bit like trying to prove or disprove the question "Does peanuts fly when I'm not looking?" or the good old tree falling in the forest. You can't prove that peanuts dont fly when you're not looking, but one may deduce after careful study that it is highly unlikely. Same thing with God. No proof for his non-existence does not increase the probability of his existence.
Peace
Dan
"YOU [humans] NEED TO BELIEVE IN THINGS THAT AREN'T TRUE. HOW ELSE CAN THEY BECOME?" - Death
"Every judgment teeters on the brink of error. To claim absolute knowledge is to become monstrous. Knowledge is an unending adventure at the edge of uncertainty." - Frank Herbert, Dune, 1965
Also, I admire your elevated thinking, I really do, but- have you experienced the death of a child, mate, or beloved parent. I think it changes perception when people go through this.
I have experienced the death of both my grandparents on my mom's side, who I loved very very much, they raised me, they were always there for me...
But I feel the same way about death as hippiemom, I really find comfort in the thought that I will someday cease to exist, I actually hope there is no afterlife (for me). I didn't always think about it this way, it actually changed after my grandparents died...
A paradox, on the surface. But that questions all knowledge basically, as one cannot prove what is not there one way or the other. It's a bit like trying to prove or disprove the question "Does peanuts fly when I'm not looking?" or the good old tree falling in the forest. You can't prove that peanuts dont fly when you're not looking, but one may deduce after careful study that it is highly unlikely. Same thing with God. No proof for his non-existence does not increase the probability of his existence.
Peace
Dan
this one does not perplex me. of course a tree falling in the forest makes a noise. Man is not the only creature with the ability to hear.
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Conversely, why do people grieve so much when people die if they are in a "better place" and you will see them again? Why do they grieve so much when death is premature? If Earth is just a small step to immortality than big deal. You would think people would be jealous.
More likely they grieve because deep down they know there is no after-life.
this one does not perplex me. of course a tree falling in the forest makes a noise. Man is not the only creature with the ability to hear.
ah, but do you know that, or does it just make sense based on other information that you have? You know, what you just labelled belief...
(edit) ah sorry, I misread your name for cornnifer. Sorry.
Peace
Dan
"YOU [humans] NEED TO BELIEVE IN THINGS THAT AREN'T TRUE. HOW ELSE CAN THEY BECOME?" - Death
"Every judgment teeters on the brink of error. To claim absolute knowledge is to become monstrous. Knowledge is an unending adventure at the edge of uncertainty." - Frank Herbert, Dune, 1965
ah, but do you know that, or does it just make sense based on other information that you have? You know, what you just labelled belief...
(edit) ah sorry, I misread your name for cornnifer. Sorry.
Peace
Dan
logic dictates that a falling tree makes a noise even if there is no one around to hear it.
i do not believe a tree makes a noise when it falls based on some sort of unsubstantiated claim. i have heard trees fall before. therefore if i find a tree lying prone, logic says that like all the other trees that have fallen and made a noise doing so, so too would the one i stumbled upon. the existence of God requires no proof, just a faith in the belief that He exists.
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logic dictates that a falling tree makes a noise even if there is no one around to hear it.
i do not believe a tree makes a noise when it falls based on some sort of unsubstantiated claim. i have heard trees fall before. therefore if i find a tree lying prone, logic says that like all the other trees that have fallen and made a noise doing so, so too would the one i stumbled upon. the existence of God requires no proof, just a faith in the belief that He exists.
Oh, I agree really. But if you wanna go with the wide definition of belief, this is also "belief" since you have no direct proof that the tree lying on the grouns made a noise on the way down. But that wide of a "belief" excludes any kind of knowledge. I think we agree, as my edit said, I though you were cornnifer for a second.
That being said, you really can't know that the tree did make a sound, or that peanuts does fly when you are not looking. (and even if you did observe it, there is the problem of the filtering through senses) But this ends up in there being no knowledge and no truth objectively. Fair enough, but not the way I would go if I was to defend God's existence.
Peace
Dan
"YOU [humans] NEED TO BELIEVE IN THINGS THAT AREN'T TRUE. HOW ELSE CAN THEY BECOME?" - Death
"Every judgment teeters on the brink of error. To claim absolute knowledge is to become monstrous. Knowledge is an unending adventure at the edge of uncertainty." - Frank Herbert, Dune, 1965
Oh, I agree really. But if you wanna go with the wide definition of belief, this is also "belief" since you have no direct proof that the tree lying on the grouns made a noise on the way down. But that wide of a "belief" excludes any kind of knowledge. I think we agree, as my edit said, I though you were cornnifer for a second.
That being said, you really can't know that the tree did make a sound, or that peanuts does fly when you are not looking. (and even if you did observe it, there is the problem of the filtering through senses) But this ends up in there being no knowledge and no truth objectively. Fair enough, but not the way I would go if I was to defend God's existence.
Peace
Dan
it makes sense to me that the tree made a noise. it would make no sense to me that after watching and hearing countless trees fall and making a noise that the next tree that fell made no noise.
i think i'd better put my hand up and say that i feel religion must remain a part of the world. where we are in our existence dictates that it is needed if we are going to continue to survive in our present societies. even as an atheist i acknowledge that the morals i have and live by are rooted in religion. it is not something i can get away from. it is ingrained into the society in which i live. but by the same token it does not mean i must accomodate religion into my life. or that am i any less of an atheist because of it.
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i think i'd better put my hand up and say that i feel religion must remain a part of the world. where we are in our existence dictates that it is needed if we are going to continue to survive in our present societies. even as an atheist i acknowledge that the morals i have and live by are rooted in religion. it is not something i can get away from. it is ingrained into the society in which i live. but by the same token it does not mean i must accomodate religion into my life. or that am i any less of an atheist because of it.
Even though the morals most of us have are rooted in religion, I do not think it's necessary for religion to remain a part of the world.
I don't know. I behave as though he does not, because I haven't seen one shred of evidence that he does.
On the contrary, I see all kinds of evidence that he does. Can i prove it? No. i can say, the same as others have, i know in my heart, but, technically it is still a belief, which you say you do not accept. Point is, is it safe to say then, that you do not accept your own stance on God? Because, it is afterall. a belief. It is therefore, according to your own bylaws, unacceptable.
"When all your friends and sedatives mean well but make it worse... better find yourself a place to level out."
On the contrary, I see all kinds of evidence that he does. Can i prove it? No. i can say, the same as others have, i know in my heart, but, technically it is still a belief, which you say you do not accept. Point is, is it safe to say then, that you do not accept your own stance on God? Because, it is afterall. a belief. It is therefore, according to your own bylaws, unacceptable.
what evidence?
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On the contrary, I see all kinds of evidence that he does. Can i prove it? No. i can say, the same as others have, i know in my heart, but, technically it is still a belief, which you say you do not accept. Point is, is it safe to say then, that you do not accept your own stance on God? Because, it is afterall. a belief. It is therefore, according to your own bylaws, unacceptable.
My stance on god is that I have no way of knowing beyond all doubt if he exists or not. Since I see no evidence that he exists, I'm going to behave as though he does not exist, it's the only sensible thing to do. I'm perfectly willing to admit that I could be wrong, although obviously I don't think I am.
"Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." ~ MLK, 1963
My stance on god is that I have no way of knowing beyond all doubt if he exists or not. Since I see no evidence that he exists, I'm going to behave as though he does not exist, it's the only sensible thing to do. I'm perfectly willing to admit that I could be wrong, although obviously I don't think I am.
Pardom me if it seems as though i'm hammering this. i'm really just looking for clarification. You said earlier that you did not accept belief. You either know, or do not know. If your stance on God is that you have know way of absolutely knowing whether or not he exists and you behave as though he does not, is that not based on a BELIEF that he does not? So, your basing your reality, thoughts and behavior on a belief, which, according to your own criteria, is completely unacceptable. Doesn't that present somewhat of a conundrum for you?
"When all your friends and sedatives mean well but make it worse... better find yourself a place to level out."
Pardom me if it seems as though i'm hammering this. i'm really just looking for clarification. You said earlier that you did not accept belief. You either know, or do not know. If your stance on God is that you have know way of absolutely knowing whether or not he exists and you behave as though he does not, is that not based on a BELIEF that he does not? So, your basing your reality, thoughts and behavior on a belief, which, according to your own criteria, is completely unacceptable. Doesn't that present somewhat of a conundrum for you?
Behaving as though he does not exist is based on the absolute knowledge that I currently have no 100% accurate way to determine whether he exists or not. Since I see no evidence of his existence, it would be silly of me to behave as though he exists. I can't prove with 100% certainty that Santa Claus doesn't exist either, but that doesn't mean I'm going to leave cookies out for him.
I guess now we're just quibbling over the use of the word "belief." I don't see any more evidence for god than I do for unicorns or the Loch Ness monster. There are people who claim to have encountered all three, but I don't find that to be persuasive without anything to back it up.
So sure, if you want to say that I don't "believe" in God in the same way that I don't believe in Santa, that's fine. We could also say that I "believe" that Vermont exists, since I've never actually seen Vermont myself. I think there's overwhelming evidence of Vermont's existance though, so I don't put that in the realm of belief.
I know I'm not articulating any of this very well, so I apologize for that. My brain seems to be operating in super slo-mo today. I may try again after some food and some more coffee
"Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." ~ MLK, 1963
Comments
but wouldn't a pre-made package not be your own meaning?
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
But we need meaning to function. And there are many ways to find it, of which religion can be one course.
Peace
Dan
"Every judgment teeters on the brink of error. To claim absolute knowledge is to become monstrous. Knowledge is an unending adventure at the edge of uncertainty." - Frank Herbert, Dune, 1965
indeed it can be one course.
i think perhaps that adhering or trying to adhere to something as rigid as organised religion is often more difficult than people realise. and maybe we are not meant to adhere to it at all.
and you are right, we do need meaning to function. but whose meaning do we choose?
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
That, is indeed the question.
Peace
Dan
"Every judgment teeters on the brink of error. To claim absolute knowledge is to become monstrous. Knowledge is an unending adventure at the edge of uncertainty." - Frank Herbert, Dune, 1965
Do you KNOW that God does not exist? Or, do you BELIEVE that he does not?
interesting. in my mind, i KNOW he doesn't exist. how do i know that? i have seen no proof of his existence. i do not doubt my conviction one iota.
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Peace
Dan
"Every judgment teeters on the brink of error. To claim absolute knowledge is to become monstrous. Knowledge is an unending adventure at the edge of uncertainty." - Frank Herbert, Dune, 1965
I have experienced the death of both my grandparents on my mom's side, who I loved very very much, they raised me, they were always there for me...
But I feel the same way about death as hippiemom, I really find comfort in the thought that I will someday cease to exist, I actually hope there is no afterlife (for me). I didn't always think about it this way, it actually changed after my grandparents died...
naděje umírá poslední
this one does not perplex me. of course a tree falling in the forest makes a noise. Man is not the only creature with the ability to hear.
take a good look
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hold my hand
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More likely they grieve because deep down they know there is no after-life.
What about a tree falling in a forest with no one or nothing around to hear?
naděje umírá poslední
how would you know then?
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ah, but do you know that, or does it just make sense based on other information that you have? You know, what you just labelled belief...
(edit) ah sorry, I misread your name for cornnifer.
Peace
Dan
"Every judgment teeters on the brink of error. To claim absolute knowledge is to become monstrous. Knowledge is an unending adventure at the edge of uncertainty." - Frank Herbert, Dune, 1965
naděje umírá poslední
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
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i just need to say
Oh ok, well what if a deaf person saw it falling?
naděje umírá poslední
logic dictates that a falling tree makes a noise even if there is no one around to hear it.
i do not believe a tree makes a noise when it falls based on some sort of unsubstantiated claim. i have heard trees fall before. therefore if i find a tree lying prone, logic says that like all the other trees that have fallen and made a noise doing so, so too would the one i stumbled upon. the existence of God requires no proof, just a faith in the belief that He exists.
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
That being said, you really can't know that the tree did make a sound, or that peanuts does fly when you are not looking. (and even if you did observe it, there is the problem of the filtering through senses) But this ends up in there being no knowledge and no truth objectively. Fair enough, but not the way I would go if I was to defend God's existence.
Peace
Dan
"Every judgment teeters on the brink of error. To claim absolute knowledge is to become monstrous. Knowledge is an unending adventure at the edge of uncertainty." - Frank Herbert, Dune, 1965
but just because a deaf person can't hear the tree fall doesn't mean it doesn't make a noise.
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I know. I actually think there would be a noise... but you can't prove it, that's the whole idea.
naděje umírá poslední
it makes sense to me that the tree made a noise. it would make no sense to me that after watching and hearing countless trees fall and making a noise that the next tree that fell made no noise.
i think i'd better put my hand up and say that i feel religion must remain a part of the world. where we are in our existence dictates that it is needed if we are going to continue to survive in our present societies. even as an atheist i acknowledge that the morals i have and live by are rooted in religion. it is not something i can get away from. it is ingrained into the society in which i live. but by the same token it does not mean i must accomodate religion into my life. or that am i any less of an atheist because of it.
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
Even though the morals most of us have are rooted in religion, I do not think it's necessary for religion to remain a part of the world.
naděje umírá poslední
what would you have the people do if they had no religion?
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On the contrary, I see all kinds of evidence that he does. Can i prove it? No. i can say, the same as others have, i know in my heart, but, technically it is still a belief, which you say you do not accept. Point is, is it safe to say then, that you do not accept your own stance on God? Because, it is afterall. a belief. It is therefore, according to your own bylaws, unacceptable.
what evidence?
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Sports, chess, charity work... I don't know.
naděje umírá poslední
Pardom me if it seems as though i'm hammering this. i'm really just looking for clarification. You said earlier that you did not accept belief. You either know, or do not know. If your stance on God is that you have know way of absolutely knowing whether or not he exists and you behave as though he does not, is that not based on a BELIEF that he does not? So, your basing your reality, thoughts and behavior on a belief, which, according to your own criteria, is completely unacceptable. Doesn't that present somewhat of a conundrum for you?
I guess now we're just quibbling over the use of the word "belief." I don't see any more evidence for god than I do for unicorns or the Loch Ness monster. There are people who claim to have encountered all three, but I don't find that to be persuasive without anything to back it up.
So sure, if you want to say that I don't "believe" in God in the same way that I don't believe in Santa, that's fine. We could also say that I "believe" that Vermont exists, since I've never actually seen Vermont myself. I think there's overwhelming evidence of Vermont's existance though, so I don't put that in the realm of belief.
I know I'm not articulating any of this very well, so I apologize for that. My brain seems to be operating in super slo-mo today. I may try again after some food and some more coffee