Israeli Apartheid - Segregation, Control and the Creation of Bantustans in the OPT
Comments
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shiraz wrote:Its not a wall, it's a 95% fence & 5% concrete. Yes, I know some of you might think "what's the difference"? Well, the difference is a wall is quite permanent, and arouse evil associations like the ones of the (ex) Berlin wall. A fance is something common between neighbors, it is transparent and easy to be moved. That's why using a "wall" which doesn't really exist as another excuse for terrorists to act against Israeli civilians deep into Israeli territory, is not valid.
In addition to that, I think too many people forget something crucial: The Palestinian area is an autonomy, an intermediate stage of what will become the state of Palestine. Hence, in many aspects the Palestinian area is considered to be a foreign country, which is why they have different ID's, car plates etc'. The same thing goes to entrance-approval (~daily / weekly/ monthly working visa). Once the Palestinians get in, they have some restrictions (for example, can't get on an Israeli bus, they have special organized transportation) and that's not because Palestinian is a foreign country, but because its a hostile one.
Bad as it sounds, Israel could have simply refuse for ANY Palestinian to get into its territory and solve "that problem". But Israel is allowing Palestinian entrance because it is still holds some responsibility for their lifes. Most of them are in fact good people who deserve to earn money & support their families, and if the Palestinian authority can't provide working places for them, we will.
As for the interior roadblocks and curfews: Though its number was reduced, those aspects are WRONG WRONG WRONG and should disappear ASAP. Hard as it is (and it is, trust me it is when it comes to a 12 years old boy with a bombing-belt across his waists, for example) in this case we must defend ourselfs within Israel- Palestine borders, not via controling civilian's lifes.
Good post. And it is good to see that others can recognize how wrong the internal checkpoints and curfews within the palestinian areas are, apart from the rabid anti-Israelis. As I understand it, those checkpoints, are there because of settlements inside the territories, and roads reserved for settlers that cannot be crossed, if a settler's car is coming.
So I dont mind the fence as much, as I mind Israel's controlling of civilians inside the "autonomous" area. And 5% wall, is still a lot of kilometres of wall...
Peace
Dan"YOU [humans] NEED TO BELIEVE IN THINGS THAT AREN'T TRUE. HOW ELSE CAN THEY BECOME?" - Death
"Every judgment teeters on the brink of error. To claim absolute knowledge is to become monstrous. Knowledge is an unending adventure at the edge of uncertainty." - Frank Herbert, Dune, 19650 -
OutOfBreath wrote:Good post. And it is good to see that others can recognize how wrong the internal checkpoints and curfews within the palestinian areas are, apart from the rabid anti-Israelis. As I understand it, those checkpoints, are there because of settlements inside the territories, and roads reserved for settlers that cannot be crossed, if a settler's car is coming.
So I dont mind the fence as much, as I mind Israel's controlling of civilians inside the "autonomous" area. And 5% wall, is still a lot of kilometres of wall...
Peace
Dan
You don't mind the fence, others who've never really been around it decided its a wall, and use it as one symbol of an none-existed apartheid. The concrete part, btw, is due logistical problems which didn't enable a fence placing - that's it. The whole purpose of this specific infrastructure in to prevent the access of suicide bombing / the delivery of a bombing-belt into Israel, and do you know what? It workes, and for that reason the fence should stay till it'll be safe enough to remove it.
About the checkpoints: the main reason is delaying suicide bombers or other terrorists who wants to hurt settlers & others Israeli civilians. The problem is, it didn't really work out & only hurt everyone.
Just one more thing: I noticed there's too much hostility towards settlers. please remember they are humans too, most of them are harmless just like most Palestinians are, and most important thing: The Israeli govt (believe it or not, it started via left wing govt) encouraged these people to live there, providing them tax benefits etc'. Most of Yehuda & Shomron areas are beautiful green places, and people who wanted to have a better "quality of life" took the opportunity to live there. Others, of caurse, took the opportunity to implement their Idiology. Either way, 30 years of actual living in the same place makes one person attached to it, the same way the Palestinians who might have lived there once probably feel.0 -
Fair enough, but the berlin wall was also only through Berlin with fences and barbed wire the rest. But I can understand need for protecting, I do.shiraz wrote:You don't mind the fence, others who've never really been around it decided its a wall, and use it as one symbol of an none-existed apartheid. The concrete part, btw, is due logistical problems which didn't enable a fence placing - that's it. The whole purpose of this specific infrastructure in to prevent the access of suicide bombing / the delivery of a bombing-belt into Israel, and do you know what? It workes, and for that reason the fence should stay till it'll be safe enough to remove it.
We're on the same page there.About the checkpoints: the main reason is delaying suicide bombers or other terrorists who wants to hurt settlers & others Israeli civilians. The problem is, it didn't really work out & only hurt everyone.
That's one of the most difficult parts of this. The settlers have lived there for some time too. However they keep demanding being protected by Israeli military, something they probably have to be and can somewhat righfully claim. But the whole settler thing was about expanding Israeli territory to a greater Israel, which is failing and are not very possible anymore. A solution to that problem will be painful to many. If Israel is planning on keeping all of them, then the palestinian territories are Bantustans in the sense that they are not viable, and all the best areas are taken by the others. The settlers probably has to go, or they have to integrate into a new palestinian state. Sucks for them, no doubt. However, it also sucks for millions of palestinian refugees still, so. This cant be solved through force, control, curfews and watchtowers. Israel has to evacuate a lot of those settlements if any lasting deal is to be possible, I think. The Gaza pull-out were an example of that. Maybe Israel could just withdraw their forces, and the settlers could take their chances. It also can't be denied that settlements are breeding ground for extremism.Just one more thing: I noticed there's too much hostility towards settlers. please remember they are humans too, most of them are harmless just like most Palestinians are, and most important thing: The Israeli govt (believe it or not, it started via left wing govt) encouraged these people to live there, providing them tax benefits etc'. Most of Yehuda & Shomron areas are beautiful green places, and people who wanted to have a better "quality of life" took the opportunity to live there. Others, of caurse, took the opportunity to implement their Idiology. Either way, 30 years of actual living in the same place makes one person attached to it, the same way the Palestinians who might have lived there once probably feel.
Israel withdraw and compensate the settlers in some way. Build them new houses and so on. Can't be that hard if they put their mind to it. Although protests will and can be massive. But the settlements are remnants of a failed "greater Israel" strategy that should be scrapped and officially put to rest. That is my opinion on it.
Peace
Dan"YOU [humans] NEED TO BELIEVE IN THINGS THAT AREN'T TRUE. HOW ELSE CAN THEY BECOME?" - Death
"Every judgment teeters on the brink of error. To claim absolute knowledge is to become monstrous. Knowledge is an unending adventure at the edge of uncertainty." - Frank Herbert, Dune, 19650 -
shiraz wrote:Its not a wall, it's a 95% fence & 5% concrete. Yes, I know some of you might think "what's the difference"? Well, the difference is a wall is quite permanent, and arouse evil associations like the ones of the (ex) Berlin wall. A fance is something common between neighbors, it is transparent and easy to be moved. That's why using a "wall" which doesn't really exist as another excuse for terrorists to act against Israeli civilians deep into Israeli territory, is not valid.
That is true, it is very common amongst neighbours. However, neighbours don't typically build fences on other people's lawns, effectively stealing a portion of their land. In the rare case that does happen there are some serious ramifications. Neighbours don't usually use razor wire either.
As for restricting traffic. You must understand that Jaresualem (sp?) is one of the holiest sites to Islam, Judaism and Christianity. Personally, I don't give a shit about holy land. I don't have a holy land and I don't have a special holiday either. I have no religious right to anything because I don't believe I should. I also don't believe other's should which negates the whole concept of Israel. Israel could be part of the Yukon for all I care. If it wasn't for your religious beliefs I'd say have the Yukon, but you wouldn't accept it. Israel would not exist if not on a chunk of "holy land". Does god all righteous, fair and just really want you to kill a million Arabs to occupy the land gifted to you? What if I don't believe in your god? I guess then I don't believe it's your land. Funny how belief makes all the difference, too bad there is nothing substantial to it. "I'm gonna rule the fucking world in the name of Gorg from planet Zarcon, because I believe I should!"
I don't mean to trash your beliefs, as I have my own that I wish be respected. I'm just trying to put it in perspective. I believe I should have equal fortune as everyone else, but capitalism won't allow it, I guess I just have to accept it. We can't just give everyone what they believe they should have. Problem is, your not a Jew if your not Jewish and you probably don't live in Israel either. Effectively making Israel a relgion based state. Not so different than your neighbours. You both just happen to think the other should give up their land for your personal beliefs. Well Gorg is the only god that matters and when Zarcon rules the planet it'll be a rude awakening
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire0 -
shiraz wrote:You don't mind the fence, others who've never really been around it decided its a wall, and use it as one symbol of an none-existed apartheid. The concrete part, btw, is due logistical problems which didn't enable a fence placing - that's it. The whole purpose of this specific infrastructure in to prevent the access of suicide bombing / the delivery of a bombing-belt into Israel, and do you know what? It workes, and for that reason the fence should stay till it'll be safe enough to remove it.
excuse me? logistical problems. what sort of logistical problems could possibly precipitate the building of a solid concrete wall rather than this apparent fence you speak of? we can't possible put up a chain link fence here but we surely can build a solid wall?hear my name
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say0 -
You guys crack me up.
Here's shiraz providing an obvious objective viewpoint filled with facts, and you geniuses who live thousands of miles away, are trying to tell her "how it really is":rolleyes::rolleyes:
Interestingly, none of you even consider or acknowledge that several of the worlds most reknowned historians and intellects agree that Israel does have a right to exist in that exact part of the world. You just keep on blabbing about how the Jews and Israel stole the land, illegally occupy .....and blah...blah...blah.
None of you ever mention all the good positive things Israel has done and continues to attempt to do, so many times; for the Palestinians and for the people of Israel.
Facts are, there are bad, violent entities on both sides who are determined to cause violence, destruction and murder; as means to meet their own end. And you can include elements within Palestine, Iran and Syria........in that equation.
The constant, biased, unobjective, short-sighted hammering and kicking of Israel and Jews is beyond mindnumbing. Simultaneously, you give Muslims from all over the world a tender and loving hand-job.
What a joke.0 -
OutOfBreath wrote:
That's one of the most difficult parts of this. The settlers have lived there for some time too. However they keep demanding being protected by Israeli military, something they probably have to be and can somewhat righfully claim. But the whole settler thing was about expanding Israeli territory to a greater Israel, which is failing and are not very possible anymore. A solution to that problem will be painful to many. If Israel is planning on keeping all of them, then the palestinian territories are Bantustans in the sense that they are not viable, and all the best areas are taken by the others. The settlers probably has to go, or they have to integrate into a new palestinian state. Sucks for them, no doubt. However, it also sucks for millions of palestinian refugees still, so. This cant be solved through force, control, curfews and watchtowers. Israel has to evacuate a lot of those settlements if any lasting deal is to be possible, I think. The Gaza pull-out were an example of that. Maybe Israel could just withdraw their forces, and the settlers could take their chances. It also can't be denied that settlements are breeding ground for extremism.
Israel withdraw and compensate the settlers in some way. Build them new houses and so on. Can't be that hard if they put their mind to it. Although protests will and can be massive. But the settlements are remnants of a failed "greater Israel" strategy that should be scrapped and officially put to rest. That is my opinion on it.
Peace
Dan
I only mentioned the settlers are also attached to that place for a good reason, and they deserve the IDF's protection because the Israeli govt encourage them to live there & they didn't arrive there on their own, because I don't think all of the hostility towards them is justifaied.
I think the solution is an Israeli withdraw under an AGREEMENT. The Gaza pull-out was proven to be wrong, as the Hamas took the opportunity to launch rockets over Israeli town of Sderot, instead of actually doing something useful for its own people. Same goes to the Rafich passage (Palestine-Egypt border), which was immediately used for weaponds smuggling, while the Palestinian people started to feel the lack of food (cause Israel & the rest of the world refused to finance a terror govt).
I think not all settlements should be evacuate, because few of them turned into small towns, and one of them, Ariel, became a large city which serves people from all over the Israeli area, including Israeli arabs. The problem is so far, the Palestinian authority doesn't care about it, they don't want to hear anything else other than "past based" talking (=returning all the original pieces of land & having an automatic right to return to Palestine).
Israel is a VERY small place, and Palestine is going to be a lot smaller. There are almost 2 millions Palestinians from Jordan who actually want to move there as soon as they'll be able to do so. I believe Palestinians have the right to return to their home-land, but the reality is there is no room for everyone here, so maybe they should get a limited quota per year (5000-10000, the same like the average number of people who are doing "aliya" every year). But again, the Palestinian authority is living in the past, unlike the Israeli govt they've showen no will to compromise (remember the Barak offer in 2000, the Gaza pull-out etc'), and as long as it keeps on thinking in that kind of a fixed way, no peace is gonna come.0 -
So what if someone is living in israel? don't americans live in america? does that mean they know what the fuck is going on? did'nt they support the war? bush? so just because someone is so close to an issue does not make them know more, or anything at all.
BTW that little sweet fence has guns on it, soldiers protecting it, yes just a fence. just a very large fence.
settlers are also humans? sure, so are killers and thieves, so was hitler, nazi soldiers, terrorists. the debate is not about settlers being humans or not, it's about them living on someone elses property. They have no right.
Gaza pull out? how about the land grab the next day?0 -
MrBrian wrote:So what if someone is living in israel? don't americans live in america? does that mean they know what the fuck is going on? did'nt they support the war? bush? so just because someone is so close to an issue does not make them know more, or anything at all.
BTW that little sweet fence has guns on it, soldiers protecting it, yes just a fence. just a very large fence.
settlers are also humans? sure, so are killers and thieves, so was hitler, nazi soldiers, terrorists. the debate is not about settlers being humans or not, it's about them living on someone elses property. They have no right.
Gaza pull out? how about the land grab the next day?
Of course there are some guns on (little part of) it & soliders protection around it. That fence was built in order to prevent terrorists from getting into Israel, so basically if you mess with the fence (=criminal) you'll probably get hurt. Is that your shocking point, Israel is protecting its civilians? Well, shame on us...
I don't have a problem with you don't believe a single word I'm saying, the only thing that bags me is how automaticly you are choosing to do so, only because you simply don't agree with my point of view. If you had actually bothered to read my posts on this thread, you would have seen I explained how come the settlers themselves are not the correct adress for all of your hostility, cause the only reason they are still living in those areas is because the Israeli govt decided not to pull them out of there (unlike what happened with the settlers in the Gaza area). It is not up to the people who live there to decide anything, so I don't see the point of hating, dissing and comparing them to nazi soldiers.
Anyway, I don't see any reason for me responding to your posts anymore, so lets just live it there.0 -
shiraz wrote:Of course there are some guns on (little part of) it & soliders protection around it. That fence was built in order to prevent terrorists from getting into Israel, so basically if you mess with the fence (=criminal) you'll probably get hurt. Is that your shocking point, Israel is protecting its civilians? Well, shame on us...
I don't have a problem with you don't believe a single word I'm saying, the only thing that bags me is how automaticly you are choosing to do so, only because you simply don't agree with my point of view. If you had actually bothered to read my posts on this thread, you would have seen I explained how come the settlers themselves are not the correct adress for all of your hostility, cause the only reason they are still living in those areas is because the Israeli govt decided not to pull them out of there (unlike what happened with the settlers in the Gaza area). It is not up to the people who live there to decide anything, so I don't see the point of hating, dissing and comparing them to nazi soldiers.
Anyway, I don't see any reason for me responding to your posts anymore, so lets just live it there.
building a fence is not solving the problem as to why these terrorists are created, it's really simple. The fence is not helping.
As far as the settlers go, why don't they just move? also many of them want to be on that land. btw america will take em in.
if you mess with the fence it's criminal, if you take land is it not criminal? if you break down homes is it not criminal? If you cut off water supply is it not criminal? if you target civilians is it not criminal?
But you have no reason to respond to anymore of my posts.
It's always up to the people,0 -
Exactly when do Palestinians/Muslim Extremists take responsibility and accountibility for their shameful and violent actions?
Let me know when that happens. I'll have my Bauer hockey skates strapped on tight, so I could skate the frozen ice of hell.0 -
NMyTree wrote:Exactly when do Palestinians/Muslim Extremists take responsibility and accountibility for their shameful and violent actions?
Let me know when that happens. I'll have my Bauer hockey skates strapped on tight, so I could skate the frozen ice of hell.
You know at the doctors office? that little rubber hammer they use on your knee? what happens when they tap it? you knee reacts with a jump yeah? are you to take responsibility for the jump or the doctor hitting your knee? palestinian violence is only a reaction from an american made hammer, used by israeli "doctors". stop hitting their knees and the leg will stop jumping.0 -
MrBrian wrote:You know at the doctors office? that little rubber hammer they use on your knee? what happens when they tap it? you knee reacts with a jump yeah? are you to take responsibility for the jump or the doctor hitting your knee? palestinian violence is only a reaction from an american made hammer, used by israeli "doctors". stop hitting their knees and the leg will stop jumping.
Sorry, but that's pure bullshit.
It's disturbing how someone who seems to be so intelligent as you, could believe such utter nonsense.
The problems, conflicts and racist-hatred for Jews, by Muslim extremists, has been in effect for thousands of years. The extremist ideology behind it has been around for thousands of years.
You thinking you can decide and pin-point the chicken or the egg in this neverending situation, is sad.
Many intellectuals and historians from all over the world have indicated that their research clearly indicates Israel (and Jews) have a definitive right to be exactly in that location. But you have taken it upon yourself to decide who belongs and who does not. As well as whom started it and who is the clear victim. Interesting.
Until people like you start demanding accountibility and responsibility from all sides in the conflict; you will be nothing more than an advocate and enabler of racist violence and murder.0 -
NMyTree wrote:Sorry, but that's pure bullshit.
It's disturbing how someone who seems to be so intelligent as you, could believe such utter nonsense.
The problems, conflicts and racist-hatred for Jews, by Muslim extremists, has been in effect for thousands of years. The extremist ideology behind it has been around for thousands of years.
You thinking you can decide and pin-point the chicken or the egg in this neverending situation, is sad.
Many intellectuals and historians from all over the world have indicated that their research clearly indicates Israel (and Jews) have a definitive right to be exactly in that location. But you have taken it upon yourself to decide who belongs and who does not. As well as whom started it and who is the clear victim. Interesting.
Until people like you start demanding accountibility and responsibility from all sides in the conflict; you will be nothing more than an advocate and enabler of racist violence and murder.
Forget it, some of us on this thead are trying to see the whole picture and find a solution, while MrBrian only wish to find someone (Israeli settlers & the US) to blame. Sad, but true.0 -
NMyTree wrote:Sorry, but that's pure bullshit.
It's disturbing how someone who seems to be so intelligent as you, could believe such utter nonsense.
The problems, conflicts and racist-hatred for Jews, by Muslim extremists, has been in effect for thousands of years. The extremist ideology behind it has been around for thousands of years.
You thinking you can decide and pin-point the chicken or the egg in this neverending situation, is sad.
Many intellectuals and historians from all over the world have indicated that their research clearly indicates Israel (and Jews) have a definitive right to be exactly in that location. But you have taken it upon yourself to decide who belongs and who does not. As well as whom started it and who is the clear victim. Interesting.
Until people like you start demanding accountibility and responsibility from all sides in the conflict; you will be nothing more than an advocate and enabler of racist violence and murder.
I think that argument about who has "rights" to that land is really getting old and missing the point. If you argue that Jews have some sort of right to that land, then you should also argue that every American should be kicked off the continent to make way for the original natives. That's rediculous to argue about "rights" like that. Nobody recognizes "rights" like that.
The point is, a large number of people were kicked off the land they were living on, and this has caused tensions and violence for a long time. THAT is the issue, and we have to deal with it in a realistic way. And the right solution is a viable 2-state settlement as everyone in the world agrees...except the U.S. and Israel. Israel wants to break up the occupied territory, take all the valuable lands in the West Bank for themselves, and offer the leftover garbage to the Palestinians. Everyone with half a brain who knows how to read a map can tell that isn't a viable 2-state settlement.
Going back to the UN-recognized borders with minor changes is the best solution. This wouldn't end any racism in the region or end all the tensions, but it would most certainly reduce the violence.0 -
Saturnal wrote:I think that argument about who has "rights" to that land is really getting old and missing the point. If you argue that Jews have some sort of right to that land, then you should also argue that every American should be kicked off the continent to make way for the original natives. That's rediculous to argue about "rights" like that. Nobody recognizes "rights" like that.
The point is, a large number of people were kicked off the land they were living on, and this has caused tensions and violence for a long time. THAT is the issue, and we have to deal with it in a realistic way. And the right solution is a viable 2-state settlement as everyone in the world agrees...except the U.S. and Israel. Israel wants to break up the occupied territory, take all the valuable lands in the West Bank for themselves, and offer the leftover garbage to the Palestinians. Everyone with half a brain who knows how to read a map can tell that isn't a viable 2-state settlement.
Going back to the UN-recognized borders with minor changes is the best solution. This wouldn't end any racism in the region or end all the tensions, but it would most certainly reduce the violence.
Yeah but the american natives for the most part are all gone, yeah know they were killed, the palestinians are still alive and fighting a war that has not ended. Otherwise I don't really disagree with what else you've said.
I'll have to get into more detail later tonight,0 -
shiraz wrote:Forget it, some of us on this thead are trying to see the whole picture and find a solution, while MrBrian only wish to find someone (Israeli settlers & the US) to blame. Sad, but true.
You seem to be trying to look at the whole picture with both eyes closed, that's sad, but true.
don't go on about me, give me some detail, tell me, what created the terrorism? when did it start?0 -
MrBrian wrote:You seem to be trying to look at the whole picture with both eyes closed, that's sad, but true.
don't go on about me, give me some detail, tell me, what created the terrorism? when did it start?
read, really, read my posts on this very thread, and than we'll see if you still think I'm looking at the whole picture with my eyes closed.The only thing you are doing here is looking for someone to blame, not a realistic solution.0 -
shiraz wrote:read, really, read my posts on this very thread, and than we'll see if you still think I'm looking at the whole picture with my eyes closed.The only thing you are doing here is looking for someone to blame, not a realistic solution.
Well i'm sorry but one side is to blame, and it's Israel, sure the palestinians must do their part, but Israel remains the cause. You don't have to like it.
Israel does'nt need a fucking wall, they need to stop tearing down homes. That's a start.
also it's unfair to ask the palestinians to relax while the israelis twist the knife that they put in them. take the blade out first, they (the palestinians) have every right to scream and fight back.0
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