No, the people = the civilians are not "guilty". According to that logic I should just blame the Palestinians for all the terrorists actions, cause 80% of them voted for the Hamas. But it doesn't work that why. Civilians =/= govts. That's why I don't automaticly hate/mistrust US or UK people just because what their govt is doing in Iraq, though many of them support these actions. You, on the other hand, do. And that's makes you a very closed minded person.
No, no. I'm not talking about hating people for their governments actions. I'm talking about holding them accountable. I don't believe hate is a solution for anything.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
No, no. I'm not talking about hating people for their governments actions. I'm talking about holding them accountable. I don't believe hate is a solution for anything.
So that's why I see nothing but hate for the settlers around here? Is that why many people around here automaticly mistrusted me for no reason other than my "good english" & having an Internet connection? Please...
The people are not responsible for their govt actions. The settlers were sent to those areas by a left-wing govt. The latest war in Lebanon was held by a left-wing govt. The peace with Egypt was made by a right-wing govt, and so was the Gaza pull-out by none other than Ariel Sharon. You can not predict what will happen tomorrow and how your govt will actually react. And you can not really stop them from doing what ever they feel its right, only protest against it and hope it'll work.
So that's why I see nothing but hate for the settlers around here? Is that why many people around here automaticly mistrusted me for no reason other than my "good english" & having an Internet connection? Please...
The people are not responsible for their govt actions. The settlers were sent to those areas by a left-wing govt. The latest war in Lebanon was held by a left-wing govt. The peace with Egypt was made by a right-wing govt, and so was the Gaza pull-out by none other than Ariel Sharon. You can not predict what will happen tomorrow and how your govt will actually react. And you can not really stop them from doing what ever they feel its right, only protest against it and hope it'll work.
Get real, Ahnimus.
Oh ok, I see, so let's just let everyone do what they want. Look, I can't protest your governemt, only you and other Israelis can. That makes you responsible. I can't vote in your elections, only you and other Israelis can. That makes you responsible. Get it?
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
Oh ok, I see, so let's just let everyone do what they want. Look, I can't protest your governemt, only you and other Israelis can. That makes you responsible. I can't vote in your elections, only you and other Israelis can. That makes you responsible. Get it?
Do you know how to read? I basically wrote the govts are doing what they feel like and the only thing us civilians can do against it is to protest and hope it'll work. I also showed you the elections doesn't matter, cause there you have a right-wing govt who made peace with Egypt, and a left-wing govt who started the whole settlements story or went into a war with Lebanon. You can not predict the govt actions, and that's why the civilians are not responsible for anyhthing, get it?
Do you know how to read? I basically wrote the govts are doing what they feel like and the only thing us civilians can do against it is to protest and hope it'll work. I also showed you the elections doesn't matter, cause there you have a right-wing govt who made peace with Egypt, and a left-wing govt who started the whole settlements story or went into a war with Lebanon. You can not predict the govt actions, and that's why the civilians are not responsible for anyhthing, get it?
So no one is responsible then? Or maybe we should bomb your airports, schools, hospitals and government, kind of like what Israel did in Lebanon.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
btw, we? we should bomb? who are we, you and whose army (great radiohead song!)?
Me and the allmighty [size=+3]ൠ[/size].
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
Oh right, never. All I did was pointing out the settlers themselves & most Palestinian civilians are not to blame, the PLA & Israeli govt are.
But you, well, Keep on reading what you feel like in order to feel you're right no matter what.
I think we can become good friends here. That's what I've been saying for a long time now.
Peace
Dan
"YOU [humans] NEED TO BELIEVE IN THINGS THAT AREN'T TRUE. HOW ELSE CAN THEY BECOME?" - Death
"Every judgment teeters on the brink of error. To claim absolute knowledge is to become monstrous. Knowledge is an unending adventure at the edge of uncertainty." - Frank Herbert, Dune, 1965
I'm sorry, I rushed my post, I should've taken the time to word it correctly and point out a better example of your bias.
nevertheless i'm sorry for that one, I hate rushing posts and will try harder to detail them in the future.
----
Let's try this,
How would you solve the problem, how would you go about trying to bring peace? two state?
I would give each person one vote, one person one vote, in palestine and israel.
of course it will need to be seen and aided by the entire planet.
see where/what the issues are, it's a start
No, lets try this. Stop ignoring my posts, stop automaticly assuming I'm biased without really reading my posts, stop using the same replays whenever someone else has a different point of view, and then maybe I'll bother to repeat my words from yesterday, in order you get my already-given answer to your question.
You attended history class you would understand the comparison of Israel to White South Africans is racist. White South Africans were actual nazis. And the argument that the Black Africans own their land is the same as the Jews own Israel. The Jews were thrown off their only historical land. The White South Africans were the settlers and the masters who had no historical root to the land. No comparison...
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Irvine 1992, Las Vegas 1993, Mountain View 1994, San Diego 1995, Los Angeles 1996, Los Angeles 1998, Moutain View 1999, San Bernadino 2000, Los Angeles 2000, Irvine 2003, Irvine 2003, Moutain View 2003, Santa Barbara 2003, San Diego 2006, Los Angeles 2006, Santa Barbara 2006
So no one is responsible then? Or maybe we should bomb your airports, schools, hospitals and government, kind of like what Israel did in Lebanon.
shows an astounding misapprehension of politics in the middle east. Ohlmert was a centrist and governments are formed over there more often than you fart in a day and the people have little control even with their ballot....sort of like here.. and Russia.
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Irvine 1992, Las Vegas 1993, Mountain View 1994, San Diego 1995, Los Angeles 1996, Los Angeles 1998, Moutain View 1999, San Bernadino 2000, Los Angeles 2000, Irvine 2003, Irvine 2003, Moutain View 2003, Santa Barbara 2003, San Diego 2006, Los Angeles 2006, Santa Barbara 2006
You attended history class you would understand the comparison of Israel to White South Africans is racist. White South Africans were actual nazis. And the argument that the Black Africans own their land is the same as the Jews own Israel. The Jews were thrown off their only historical land. The White South Africans were the settlers and the masters who had no historical root to the land. No comparison...
I dont think anyone implies that the settlers in south africa has the same historical roots as the jews in palestine. The treatment of blacks/palestinians is to a degree comparable though, as is the apparent Israeli policy of giving palestinians land, but not any land that is usable for anything. Together with the walling off, and the treatment of palestinians as inferior citizens, that's where the parallells are.
And I find the "what country belongs to which ""people""" to be a complete sidetrack, and irrelevant for anyone but historians in the real world. What does it matter if the local king was a jew 2500 years ago when it come to the people there today? There are jews, and there are thew others, called palestinians, who have also lived there for generations upon generations. If they have no legitimate claim, then all americans, except the couple houndred thousand indians, can fuck off from the US too, if the same principle is to be applied... Americans have an even shorter lineage back, than the muslims (and christians some of them) in Palestine.
Peace
Dan
"YOU [humans] NEED TO BELIEVE IN THINGS THAT AREN'T TRUE. HOW ELSE CAN THEY BECOME?" - Death
"Every judgment teeters on the brink of error. To claim absolute knowledge is to become monstrous. Knowledge is an unending adventure at the edge of uncertainty." - Frank Herbert, Dune, 1965
I dont think anyone implies that the settlers in south africa has the same historical roots as the jews in palestine. The treatment of blacks/palestinians is to a degree comparable though, as is the apparent Israeli policy of giving palestinians land, but not any land that is usable for anything. Together with the walling off, and the treatment of palestinians as inferior citizens, that's where the parallells are.
And I find the "what country belongs to which ""people""" to be a complete sidetrack, and irrelevant for anyone but historians in the real world. What does it matter if the local king was a jew 2500 years ago when it come to the people there today? There are jews, and there are thew others, called palestinians, who have also lived there for generations upon generations. If they have no legitimate claim, then all americans, except the couple houndred thousand indians, can fuck off from the US too, if the same principle is to be applied... Americans have an even shorter lineage back, than the muslims (and christians some of them) in Palestine.
Peace
Dan
CHECK YOUR BOOKS. JEWS CONNECTION IS NOT MERELY ONE KING 2500 YEARS AGO. IT WAS JEWISH LAND FOR THOUSANDS OF YEARS AND IT WAS 1930 YEARS AGO THAT THE ROMANS PLUDERED ISRAEL AND BANISHED THEM AFTER SLAUGHTERING HUNDRED OF THOUSANDS. THIS POLICY WAS FOLLOWED BY VIRTUALLY EVERY OCCUPYING POWER OF THE AREA INCLUDING THE CHRISTIAN GREEK BYZANTINES AND SOME OF THE MUSLIM ARABS. ONLY THE OTTOMAN TURKS ALLOWED THE JEWS TO FREELY PRACTICE THEIR RELIGION AND RETURN TO THEIR HISTORICAL LAND. THEIR HAVE BEEN JEWS IN PALESTINE/ISRAEL IN INCREASING NUMBERS SINCE THE LATE 19TH CENTURY AND THEY LIVED IN RELATIVE PEACE UNTIL THE UNITED ARAB ARMIES INVADED ISRAEL; A NATION CREATED BY THE UNITED NATIONS. INSTEAD OF ACCEPT A PARTITON OF PALESTINE EQUALLY BETWEEN JEWS AND PALESTINIANS, THE ARABS ATTACKED A PEOPLE ON THE VERGE OF EXTINCTION AT THE HANDS OF EUROPEANS. THE ARABS LOST AND SO DID THE PALESTINIANS. JUST AS EVERY OTHER ARMY INCLUDING OUR OWN HAS DONE, THE ISRAELI ARMY TOOK LANDS THEY HAD RECEIVED IN BATTLE; A BATTLE THEY DID NOT WANT.
WHEN UNITED ARAB ARMIES, IN 1967, ARABS WERE AGAIN UNITING TO BOMB ISRAEL OUT OF EXISTENCE ,BEHIND NASSAR, AND ISRAEL AGAIN HANDED IT TO THE PEOPLE BENT ON WIPING THEM OUT AND ISRAEL AGAIN GAINED MORE LAND; LAND NEEDED TO GIVE THEM ROOM FROM THE PEOPLE BENT ON THEIR FINAL DESTRUCTION. AGAIN, WHO LOST? THE PALESTINIANS. YOU MIGHT ALSO RECALL THAT EGYPT OCCUPIED THE GAZA STRIP AND INCOPORTATED IT INTO THEIR COUNTRY AND JORDAN OCCUPIED THE WEST BANK. THEY NEVER GAVE THE PALESTINIANS THIS LAND. SO WHY CONTINUE TO SLANDER ISRAEL? IS IT BECAUSE THIS IS A JEWISH NATION AND IT STILL REMAINS A THREAT TO THOSE WHO CAN'T TOLERATE A JEWISH NATION AND USE THE BOGUS PALESTINIAN ARGUMENT WHICH REVEALS NOTHING MORE THAN MODERN ANTI SEMITISM.
PALESTINIANS HAD AN OPPORTUNITY FOR A NATION IN 1948 AND AGAIN WHEN OFFERED A TREATY BY BARAK. THEY CONTINUE TO CHOOSE WAR, SUICIDE BOMBINGS OF CIVILLIANS AND MURDER. THOSE WHO EMPATHIZE WITH THEM OUGHT TO GIVE THOUGHT AS TO WHAT IT IS THEY ARE TRULY SAYING. IT SOUNDS MORE AND MORE TO AN INFORMED PERSON AS NOTHING MORE THAN HATE....
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Irvine 1992, Las Vegas 1993, Mountain View 1994, San Diego 1995, Los Angeles 1996, Los Angeles 1998, Moutain View 1999, San Bernadino 2000, Los Angeles 2000, Irvine 2003, Irvine 2003, Moutain View 2003, Santa Barbara 2003, San Diego 2006, Los Angeles 2006, Santa Barbara 2006
dude, brianjd, you see that button that say's "caps lock" on your keyboard? press it and the letters get smaller.
If you dont like, dont read
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Irvine 1992, Las Vegas 1993, Mountain View 1994, San Diego 1995, Los Angeles 1996, Los Angeles 1998, Moutain View 1999, San Bernadino 2000, Los Angeles 2000, Irvine 2003, Irvine 2003, Moutain View 2003, Santa Barbara 2003, San Diego 2006, Los Angeles 2006, Santa Barbara 2006
". . . You declare, my friend, that you do not hate the Jews, you are merely 'anti-Zionist.' And I say, let the truth ring forth from the high mountain tops, let it echo through the valleys of God's green earth: When people criticize Zionism, they mean Jews--this is God's own truth.
"Antisemitism, the hatred of the Jewish people, has been and remains a blot on the soul of mankind. In this we are in full agreement. So know also this: anti-Zionist is inherently antisemitic, and ever will be so.
"Why is this? You know that Zionism is nothing less than the dream and ideal of the Jewish people returning to live in their own land. The Jewish people, the Scriptures tell us, once enjoyed a flourishing Commonwealth in the Holy Land. From this they were expelled by the Roman tyrant, the same Romans who cruelly murdered Our Lord. Driven from their homeland, their nation in ashes, forced to wander the globe, the Jewish people time and again suffered the lash of whichever tyrant happened to rule over them.
"The Negro people, my friend, know what it is to suffer the torment of tyranny under rulers not of our choosing. Our brothers in Africa have begged, pleaded, requested--DEMANDED the recognition and realization of our inborn right to live in peace under our own sovereignty in our own country.
"How easy it should be, for anyone who holds dear this inalienable right of all mankind, to understand and support the right of the Jewish People to live in their ancient Land of Israel. All men of good will exult in the fulfilment of God's promise, that his People should return in joy to rebuild their plundered land.
This is Zionism, nothing more, nothing less.
"And what is anti-Zionist? It is the denial to the Jewish people of a fundamental right that we justly claim for the people of Africa and freely accord all other nations of the Globe. It is discrimination against Jews, my friend, because they are Jews. In short, it is antisemitism.
"The antisemite rejoices at any opportunity to vent his malice. The times have made it unpopular, in the West, to proclaim openly a hatred of the Jews. This being the case, the antisemite must constantly seek new forms and forums for his poison. How he must revel in the new masquerade! He does not hate the Jews, he is just 'anti-Zionist'!
"My friend, I do not accuse you of deliberate antisemitism. I know you feel, as I do, a deep love of truth and justice and a revulsion for racism, prejudice, and discrimination. But I know you have been misled--as others have been--into thinking you can be 'anti-Zionist' and yet remain true to these heartfelt principles that you and I share.
Let my words echo in the depths of your soul: When people criticize Zionism, they mean Jews--make no mistake about it."
From M.L. King Jr., "Letter to an Anti-Zionist Friend," Saturday Review_XLVII (Aug. 1967)
______________
Irvine 1992, Las Vegas 1993, Mountain View 1994, San Diego 1995, Los Angeles 1996, Los Angeles 1998, Moutain View 1999, San Bernadino 2000, Los Angeles 2000, Irvine 2003, Irvine 2003, Moutain View 2003, Santa Barbara 2003, San Diego 2006, Los Angeles 2006, Santa Barbara 2006
CHECK YOUR BOOKS. JEWS CONNECTION IS NOT MERELY ONE KING 2500 YEARS AGO. IT WAS JEWISH LAND FOR THOUSANDS OF YEARS AND IT WAS 1930 YEARS AGO THAT THE ROMANS PLUDERED ISRAEL AND BANISHED THEM AFTER SLAUGHTERING HUNDRED OF THOUSANDS. THIS POLICY WAS FOLLOWED BY VIRTUALLY EVERY OCCUPYING POWER OF THE AREA INCLUDING THE CHRISTIAN GREEK BYZANTINES AND SOME OF THE MUSLIM ARABS. ONLY THE OTTOMAN TURKS ALLOWED THE JEWS TO FREELY PRACTICE THEIR RELIGION AND RETURN TO THEIR HISTORICAL LAND. THEIR HAVE BEEN JEWS IN PALESTINE/ISRAEL IN INCREASING NUMBERS SINCE THE LATE 19TH CENTURY AND THEY LIVED IN RELATIVE PEACE UNTIL THE UNITED ARAB ARMIES INVADED ISRAEL; A NATION CREATED BY THE UNITED NATIONS. INSTEAD OF ACCEPT A PARTITON OF PALESTINE EQUALLY BETWEEN JEWS AND PALESTINIANS, THE ARABS ATTACKED A PEOPLE ON THE VERGE OF EXTINCTION AT THE HANDS OF EUROPEANS. THE ARABS LOST AND SO DID THE PALESTINIANS. JUST AS EVERY OTHER ARMY INCLUDING OUR OWN HAS DONE, THE ISRAELI ARMY TOOK LANDS THEY HAD RECEIVED IN BATTLE; A BATTLE THEY DID NOT WANT.
WHEN UNITED ARAB ARMIES, IN 1967, ARABS WERE AGAIN UNITING TO BOMB ISRAEL OUT OF EXISTENCE ,BEHIND NASSAR, AND ISRAEL AGAIN HANDED IT TO THE PEOPLE BENT ON WIPING THEM OUT AND ISRAEL AGAIN GAINED MORE LAND; LAND NEEDED TO GIVE THEM ROOM FROM THE PEOPLE BENT ON THEIR FINAL DESTRUCTION. AGAIN, WHO LOST? THE PALESTINIANS. YOU MIGHT ALSO RECALL THAT EGYPT OCCUPIED THE GAZA STRIP AND INCOPORTATED IT INTO THEIR COUNTRY AND JORDAN OCCUPIED THE WEST BANK. THEY NEVER GAVE THE PALESTINIANS THIS LAND. SO WHY CONTINUE TO SLANDER ISRAEL? IS IT BECAUSE THIS IS A JEWISH NATION AND IT STILL REMAINS A THREAT TO THOSE WHO CAN'T TOLERATE A JEWISH NATION AND USE THE BOGUS PALESTINIAN ARGUMENT WHICH REVEALS NOTHING MORE THAN MODERN ANTI SEMITISM.
PALESTINIANS HAD AN OPPORTUNITY FOR A NATION IN 1948 AND AGAIN WHEN OFFERED A TREATY BY BARAK. THEY CONTINUE TO CHOOSE WAR, SUICIDE BOMBINGS OF CIVILLIANS AND MURDER. THOSE WHO EMPATHIZE WITH THEM OUGHT TO GIVE THOUGHT AS TO WHAT IT IS THEY ARE TRULY SAYING. IT SOUNDS MORE AND MORE TO AN INFORMED PERSON AS NOTHING MORE THAN HATE....
What's the deal with the caps lock? I assume it was just locked on, as I see no need to "shout" what you just said.
I said, and say again, who had what 2000 years ago is a moot point. Only ones harping on such points are the ones out to gain something by it politically or otherwise. I am uninterested in the yet-again, one-side-has-all-fault-and-the-others-have-never-done-anything-wrong-perspective. If you have read my posts before, you will know my stance, which is not supportive of the palestinian leadership. My focus is on civilians who are caught in the middle all the time. And I also poo-poo any reference to "historical facts" dating back centuries upon centuries as totally irrelevant, other than to create some nationalist fervor in support of a nation-state. Actually, determining the bad guys are also irrelevant. They all have to learn to live together in some way or other. The moderates needs to be strengthened on both sides, and the extremists isolated. Sadly, both sides are characterized by leaderships that can only think in military and war terms.
"Let he who is without sin throw the first rock" is a good principle to apply here, as no rocks would ever be trown.
Peace
Dan
"YOU [humans] NEED TO BELIEVE IN THINGS THAT AREN'T TRUE. HOW ELSE CAN THEY BECOME?" - Death
"Every judgment teeters on the brink of error. To claim absolute knowledge is to become monstrous. Knowledge is an unending adventure at the edge of uncertainty." - Frank Herbert, Dune, 1965
". . . You declare, my friend, that you do not hate the Jews, you are merely 'anti-Zionist.' And I say, let the truth ring forth from the high mountain tops, let it echo through the valleys of God's green earth: When people criticize Zionism, they mean Jews--this is God's own truth.
"Antisemitism, the hatred of the Jewish people, has been and remains a blot on the soul of mankind. In this we are in full agreement. So know also this: anti-Zionist is inherently antisemitic, and ever will be so.
"Why is this? You know that Zionism is nothing less than the dream and ideal of the Jewish people returning to live in their own land. The Jewish people, the Scriptures tell us, once enjoyed a flourishing Commonwealth in the Holy Land. From this they were expelled by the Roman tyrant, the same Romans who cruelly murdered Our Lord. Driven from their homeland, their nation in ashes, forced to wander the globe, the Jewish people time and again suffered the lash of whichever tyrant happened to rule over them.
"The Negro people, my friend, know what it is to suffer the torment of tyranny under rulers not of our choosing. Our brothers in Africa have begged, pleaded, requested--DEMANDED the recognition and realization of our inborn right to live in peace under our own sovereignty in our own country.
"How easy it should be, for anyone who holds dear this inalienable right of all mankind, to understand and support the right of the Jewish People to live in their ancient Land of Israel. All men of good will exult in the fulfilment of God's promise, that his People should return in joy to rebuild their plundered land.
This is Zionism, nothing more, nothing less.
"And what is anti-Zionist? It is the denial to the Jewish people of a fundamental right that we justly claim for the people of Africa and freely accord all other nations of the Globe. It is discrimination against Jews, my friend, because they are Jews. In short, it is antisemitism.
"The antisemite rejoices at any opportunity to vent his malice. The times have made it unpopular, in the West, to proclaim openly a hatred of the Jews. This being the case, the antisemite must constantly seek new forms and forums for his poison. How he must revel in the new masquerade! He does not hate the Jews, he is just 'anti-Zionist'!
"My friend, I do not accuse you of deliberate antisemitism. I know you feel, as I do, a deep love of truth and justice and a revulsion for racism, prejudice, and discrimination. But I know you have been misled--as others have been--into thinking you can be 'anti-Zionist' and yet remain true to these heartfelt principles that you and I share.
Let my words echo in the depths of your soul: When people criticize Zionism, they mean Jews--make no mistake about it."
From M.L. King Jr., "Letter to an Anti-Zionist Friend," Saturday Review_XLVII (Aug. 1967)
He talks about how anti-semites can camouflage themselves as anti-zionists as that doesnt sound as bad. Which they probably do. But I suppose the extension of this is supposed to be Zionism = Jews = Israel (the state) so that anyone uttering a bad word about Israel the state is also anti-semite, or a criticism of zionism is anti-semite. Bollocks. I have nothing against jews, but I have problems with Israeli state policies, and I have problems with an expansionist ultra-nationalistic zionism. Same way, I have nothing against americans, infact I deeply admire many of them, but I have problems with their state's policies. With "jews" I admire several of the jewish intellectuals that has laid the foundation for sociology among others. Many great thinkers, and I respect other religions somewhat (although I'm no fan of religion in general). BUT I have some pretty heavy criticisms aimed at the state of Israel. Am I an anti-semite?
Peace
Dan
"YOU [humans] NEED TO BELIEVE IN THINGS THAT AREN'T TRUE. HOW ELSE CAN THEY BECOME?" - Death
"Every judgment teeters on the brink of error. To claim absolute knowledge is to become monstrous. Knowledge is an unending adventure at the edge of uncertainty." - Frank Herbert, Dune, 1965
Comments
No, no. I'm not talking about hating people for their governments actions. I'm talking about holding them accountable. I don't believe hate is a solution for anything.
So that's why I see nothing but hate for the settlers around here? Is that why many people around here automaticly mistrusted me for no reason other than my "good english" & having an Internet connection? Please...
The people are not responsible for their govt actions. The settlers were sent to those areas by a left-wing govt. The latest war in Lebanon was held by a left-wing govt. The peace with Egypt was made by a right-wing govt, and so was the Gaza pull-out by none other than Ariel Sharon. You can not predict what will happen tomorrow and how your govt will actually react. And you can not really stop them from doing what ever they feel its right, only protest against it and hope it'll work.
Get real, Ahnimus.
Oh ok, I see, so let's just let everyone do what they want. Look, I can't protest your governemt, only you and other Israelis can. That makes you responsible. I can't vote in your elections, only you and other Israelis can. That makes you responsible. Get it?
Well, that certainly is not me. I have no unconditional support for anyone. Not even Pearl Jam:D
Do you know how to read? I basically wrote the govts are doing what they feel like and the only thing us civilians can do against it is to protest and hope it'll work. I also showed you the elections doesn't matter, cause there you have a right-wing govt who made peace with Egypt, and a left-wing govt who started the whole settlements story or went into a war with Lebanon. You can not predict the govt actions, and that's why the civilians are not responsible for anyhthing, get it?
So no one is responsible then? Or maybe we should bomb your airports, schools, hospitals and government, kind of like what Israel did in Lebanon.
The govts are responsible, the civilians are not. I think this is the 5th time I'm writing this, I wonder if I can break a record today.
btw, we? we should bomb? who are we, you and whose army (great radiohead song!)?
civilians are paying other govts for their own govts mistakes. You or me can not & should not charge them (these civilians) for anything.
Me and the allmighty [size=+3]ൠ[/size].
I think we can become good friends here.
Peace
Dan
"Every judgment teeters on the brink of error. To claim absolute knowledge is to become monstrous. Knowledge is an unending adventure at the edge of uncertainty." - Frank Herbert, Dune, 1965
or do you mean, most settlers and most palestinians?
----
nice so called middle road you take, it leads right to the settlements
I wrote "most" in my original post, the one you didn't read.
I'm sorry, I rushed my post, I should've taken the time to word it correctly and point out a better example of your bias.
nevertheless i'm sorry for that one, I hate rushing posts and will try harder to detail them in the future.
----
Let's try this,
How would you solve the problem, how would you go about trying to bring peace? two state?
I would give each person one vote, one person one vote, in palestine and israel.
of course it will need to be seen and aided by the entire planet.
see where/what the issues are, it's a start
No, lets try this. Stop ignoring my posts, stop automaticly assuming I'm biased without really reading my posts, stop using the same replays whenever someone else has a different point of view, and then maybe I'll bother to repeat my words from yesterday, in order you get my already-given answer to your question.
Irvine 1992, Las Vegas 1993, Mountain View 1994, San Diego 1995, Los Angeles 1996, Los Angeles 1998, Moutain View 1999, San Bernadino 2000, Los Angeles 2000, Irvine 2003, Irvine 2003, Moutain View 2003, Santa Barbara 2003, San Diego 2006, Los Angeles 2006, Santa Barbara 2006
Irvine 1992, Las Vegas 1993, Mountain View 1994, San Diego 1995, Los Angeles 1996, Los Angeles 1998, Moutain View 1999, San Bernadino 2000, Los Angeles 2000, Irvine 2003, Irvine 2003, Moutain View 2003, Santa Barbara 2003, San Diego 2006, Los Angeles 2006, Santa Barbara 2006
I dont think anyone implies that the settlers in south africa has the same historical roots as the jews in palestine. The treatment of blacks/palestinians is to a degree comparable though, as is the apparent Israeli policy of giving palestinians land, but not any land that is usable for anything. Together with the walling off, and the treatment of palestinians as inferior citizens, that's where the parallells are.
And I find the "what country belongs to which ""people""" to be a complete sidetrack, and irrelevant for anyone but historians in the real world. What does it matter if the local king was a jew 2500 years ago when it come to the people there today? There are jews, and there are thew others, called palestinians, who have also lived there for generations upon generations. If they have no legitimate claim, then all americans, except the couple houndred thousand indians, can fuck off from the US too, if the same principle is to be applied... Americans have an even shorter lineage back, than the muslims (and christians some of them) in Palestine.
Peace
Dan
"Every judgment teeters on the brink of error. To claim absolute knowledge is to become monstrous. Knowledge is an unending adventure at the edge of uncertainty." - Frank Herbert, Dune, 1965
CHECK YOUR BOOKS. JEWS CONNECTION IS NOT MERELY ONE KING 2500 YEARS AGO. IT WAS JEWISH LAND FOR THOUSANDS OF YEARS AND IT WAS 1930 YEARS AGO THAT THE ROMANS PLUDERED ISRAEL AND BANISHED THEM AFTER SLAUGHTERING HUNDRED OF THOUSANDS. THIS POLICY WAS FOLLOWED BY VIRTUALLY EVERY OCCUPYING POWER OF THE AREA INCLUDING THE CHRISTIAN GREEK BYZANTINES AND SOME OF THE MUSLIM ARABS. ONLY THE OTTOMAN TURKS ALLOWED THE JEWS TO FREELY PRACTICE THEIR RELIGION AND RETURN TO THEIR HISTORICAL LAND. THEIR HAVE BEEN JEWS IN PALESTINE/ISRAEL IN INCREASING NUMBERS SINCE THE LATE 19TH CENTURY AND THEY LIVED IN RELATIVE PEACE UNTIL THE UNITED ARAB ARMIES INVADED ISRAEL; A NATION CREATED BY THE UNITED NATIONS. INSTEAD OF ACCEPT A PARTITON OF PALESTINE EQUALLY BETWEEN JEWS AND PALESTINIANS, THE ARABS ATTACKED A PEOPLE ON THE VERGE OF EXTINCTION AT THE HANDS OF EUROPEANS. THE ARABS LOST AND SO DID THE PALESTINIANS. JUST AS EVERY OTHER ARMY INCLUDING OUR OWN HAS DONE, THE ISRAELI ARMY TOOK LANDS THEY HAD RECEIVED IN BATTLE; A BATTLE THEY DID NOT WANT.
WHEN UNITED ARAB ARMIES, IN 1967, ARABS WERE AGAIN UNITING TO BOMB ISRAEL OUT OF EXISTENCE ,BEHIND NASSAR, AND ISRAEL AGAIN HANDED IT TO THE PEOPLE BENT ON WIPING THEM OUT AND ISRAEL AGAIN GAINED MORE LAND; LAND NEEDED TO GIVE THEM ROOM FROM THE PEOPLE BENT ON THEIR FINAL DESTRUCTION. AGAIN, WHO LOST? THE PALESTINIANS. YOU MIGHT ALSO RECALL THAT EGYPT OCCUPIED THE GAZA STRIP AND INCOPORTATED IT INTO THEIR COUNTRY AND JORDAN OCCUPIED THE WEST BANK. THEY NEVER GAVE THE PALESTINIANS THIS LAND. SO WHY CONTINUE TO SLANDER ISRAEL? IS IT BECAUSE THIS IS A JEWISH NATION AND IT STILL REMAINS A THREAT TO THOSE WHO CAN'T TOLERATE A JEWISH NATION AND USE THE BOGUS PALESTINIAN ARGUMENT WHICH REVEALS NOTHING MORE THAN MODERN ANTI SEMITISM.
PALESTINIANS HAD AN OPPORTUNITY FOR A NATION IN 1948 AND AGAIN WHEN OFFERED A TREATY BY BARAK. THEY CONTINUE TO CHOOSE WAR, SUICIDE BOMBINGS OF CIVILLIANS AND MURDER. THOSE WHO EMPATHIZE WITH THEM OUGHT TO GIVE THOUGHT AS TO WHAT IT IS THEY ARE TRULY SAYING. IT SOUNDS MORE AND MORE TO AN INFORMED PERSON AS NOTHING MORE THAN HATE....
Irvine 1992, Las Vegas 1993, Mountain View 1994, San Diego 1995, Los Angeles 1996, Los Angeles 1998, Moutain View 1999, San Bernadino 2000, Los Angeles 2000, Irvine 2003, Irvine 2003, Moutain View 2003, Santa Barbara 2003, San Diego 2006, Los Angeles 2006, Santa Barbara 2006
Irvine 1992, Las Vegas 1993, Mountain View 1994, San Diego 1995, Los Angeles 1996, Los Angeles 1998, Moutain View 1999, San Bernadino 2000, Los Angeles 2000, Irvine 2003, Irvine 2003, Moutain View 2003, Santa Barbara 2003, San Diego 2006, Los Angeles 2006, Santa Barbara 2006
- Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.
". . . You declare, my friend, that you do not hate the Jews, you are merely 'anti-Zionist.' And I say, let the truth ring forth from the high mountain tops, let it echo through the valleys of God's green earth: When people criticize Zionism, they mean Jews--this is God's own truth.
"Antisemitism, the hatred of the Jewish people, has been and remains a blot on the soul of mankind. In this we are in full agreement. So know also this: anti-Zionist is inherently antisemitic, and ever will be so.
"Why is this? You know that Zionism is nothing less than the dream and ideal of the Jewish people returning to live in their own land. The Jewish people, the Scriptures tell us, once enjoyed a flourishing Commonwealth in the Holy Land. From this they were expelled by the Roman tyrant, the same Romans who cruelly murdered Our Lord. Driven from their homeland, their nation in ashes, forced to wander the globe, the Jewish people time and again suffered the lash of whichever tyrant happened to rule over them.
"The Negro people, my friend, know what it is to suffer the torment of tyranny under rulers not of our choosing. Our brothers in Africa have begged, pleaded, requested--DEMANDED the recognition and realization of our inborn right to live in peace under our own sovereignty in our own country.
"How easy it should be, for anyone who holds dear this inalienable right of all mankind, to understand and support the right of the Jewish People to live in their ancient Land of Israel. All men of good will exult in the fulfilment of God's promise, that his People should return in joy to rebuild their plundered land.
This is Zionism, nothing more, nothing less.
"And what is anti-Zionist? It is the denial to the Jewish people of a fundamental right that we justly claim for the people of Africa and freely accord all other nations of the Globe. It is discrimination against Jews, my friend, because they are Jews. In short, it is antisemitism.
"The antisemite rejoices at any opportunity to vent his malice. The times have made it unpopular, in the West, to proclaim openly a hatred of the Jews. This being the case, the antisemite must constantly seek new forms and forums for his poison. How he must revel in the new masquerade! He does not hate the Jews, he is just 'anti-Zionist'!
"My friend, I do not accuse you of deliberate antisemitism. I know you feel, as I do, a deep love of truth and justice and a revulsion for racism, prejudice, and discrimination. But I know you have been misled--as others have been--into thinking you can be 'anti-Zionist' and yet remain true to these heartfelt principles that you and I share.
Let my words echo in the depths of your soul: When people criticize Zionism, they mean Jews--make no mistake about it."
From M.L. King Jr., "Letter to an Anti-Zionist Friend," Saturday Review_XLVII (Aug. 1967)
Irvine 1992, Las Vegas 1993, Mountain View 1994, San Diego 1995, Los Angeles 1996, Los Angeles 1998, Moutain View 1999, San Bernadino 2000, Los Angeles 2000, Irvine 2003, Irvine 2003, Moutain View 2003, Santa Barbara 2003, San Diego 2006, Los Angeles 2006, Santa Barbara 2006
What's the deal with the caps lock? I assume it was just locked on, as I see no need to "shout" what you just said.
I said, and say again, who had what 2000 years ago is a moot point. Only ones harping on such points are the ones out to gain something by it politically or otherwise. I am uninterested in the yet-again, one-side-has-all-fault-and-the-others-have-never-done-anything-wrong-perspective. If you have read my posts before, you will know my stance, which is not supportive of the palestinian leadership. My focus is on civilians who are caught in the middle all the time. And I also poo-poo any reference to "historical facts" dating back centuries upon centuries as totally irrelevant, other than to create some nationalist fervor in support of a nation-state. Actually, determining the bad guys are also irrelevant. They all have to learn to live together in some way or other. The moderates needs to be strengthened on both sides, and the extremists isolated. Sadly, both sides are characterized by leaderships that can only think in military and war terms.
"Let he who is without sin throw the first rock" is a good principle to apply here, as no rocks would ever be trown.
Peace
Dan
"Every judgment teeters on the brink of error. To claim absolute knowledge is to become monstrous. Knowledge is an unending adventure at the edge of uncertainty." - Frank Herbert, Dune, 1965
He talks about how anti-semites can camouflage themselves as anti-zionists as that doesnt sound as bad. Which they probably do. But I suppose the extension of this is supposed to be Zionism = Jews = Israel (the state) so that anyone uttering a bad word about Israel the state is also anti-semite, or a criticism of zionism is anti-semite. Bollocks. I have nothing against jews, but I have problems with Israeli state policies, and I have problems with an expansionist ultra-nationalistic zionism. Same way, I have nothing against americans, infact I deeply admire many of them, but I have problems with their state's policies. With "jews" I admire several of the jewish intellectuals that has laid the foundation for sociology among others. Many great thinkers, and I respect other religions somewhat (although I'm no fan of religion in general). BUT I have some pretty heavy criticisms aimed at the state of Israel. Am I an anti-semite?
Peace
Dan
"Every judgment teeters on the brink of error. To claim absolute knowledge is to become monstrous. Knowledge is an unending adventure at the edge of uncertainty." - Frank Herbert, Dune, 1965