Israeli Apartheid - Segregation, Control and the Creation of Bantustans in the OPT

shiraz

MrBrian wrote:

Well i'm sorry but one side is to blame, and it's Israel, sure the palestinians must do their part, but Israel remains the cause. You don't have to like it.

Israel does'nt need a fucking wall, they need to stop tearing down homes. That's a start.

also it's unfair to ask the palestinians to relax while the israelis twist the knife that they put in them. take the blade out first, they (the palestinians) have every right to scream and fight back.

You didn't read my posts, right? well, no point for me to read yours, after all I'll always get the same replay, right?

forget it, if you can't even give me the min' respect, I got nothing to talk to you about.

good night!

MrBrian

NMyTree wrote:

You are so dead wrong. So very, very dead wrong, here.

That's fine, please, explain.

tell me when it started? tell me when the first suicide bombing was? tell me about the land grabs? give me the cause? and please I don't wanna hear some shit about the palestinians doing it for some fucking virgins. Maybe some think that way, but the fight against israel is still true and very much just.

MrBrian

shiraz wrote:

You didn't read my posts, right? well, no point for me to read yours, after all I'll always get the same replay, right?

forget it, if you can't even give me the min' respect, I got nothing to talk to you about.

good night!

I respect your choice of music, I respect you for that, I have read your posts, you are the one who wanted to cut me off after my first reply.

It does'nt even matter now, you want to start again?

Please do.

NMyTree

MrBrian wrote:

That's fine, please, explain.

tell me when it started? tell me when the first suicide bombing was? tell me about the land grabs? give me the cause? and please I don't wanna hear some shit about the palestinians doing it for some fucking virgins. Maybe some think that way, but the fight against israel is still true and very much just.

It's as simple as this.

You've read books. I've read books.

When there are historical facts that support both sides, it's blatantly obvious to the objective mind- that both sides share the blame in the neverending conflict. Facts don't support both sides, unless both are equally guilty.

Ahnimus

shiraz wrote:

I only mentioned the settlers are also attached to that place for a good reason, and they deserve the IDF's protection because the Israeli govt encourage them to live there & they didn't arrive there on their own, because I don't think all of the hostility towards them is justifaied.

I think the solution is an Israeli withdraw under an AGREEMENT. The Gaza pull-out was proven to be wrong, as the Hamas took the opportunity to launch rockets over Israeli town of Sderot, instead of actually doing something useful for its own people. Same goes to the Rafich passage (Palestine-Egypt border), which was immediately used for weaponds smuggling, while the Palestinian people started to feel the lack of food (cause Israel & the rest of the world refused to finance a terror govt).

I think not all settlements should be evacuate, because few of them turned into small towns, and one of them, Ariel, became a large city which serves people from all over the Israeli area, including Israeli arabs. The problem is so far, the Palestinian authority doesn't care about it, they don't want to hear anything else other than "past based" talking (=returning all the original pieces of land & having an automatic right to return to Palestine).

Israel is a VERY small place, and Palestine is going to be a lot smaller. There are almost 2 millions Palestinians from Jordan who actually want to move there as soon as they'll be able to do so. I believe Palestinians have the right to return to their home-land, but the reality is there is no room for everyone here, so maybe they should get a limited quota per year (5000-10000, the same like the average number of people who are doing "aliya" every year). But again, the Palestinian authority is living in the past, unlike the Israeli govt they've showen no will to compromise (remember the Barak offer in 2000, the Gaza pull-out etc'), and as long as it keeps on thinking in that kind of a fixed way, no peace is gonna come.

Way to Omit some facts. The Gaza pull-out may have worked if Israel didn't expand into the West Bank. Remember some 25 settlements were removed from Gaza, but 1200 were added to the West Bank. Get your facts straight.

rebornFixer

NMyTree wrote:

You are so dead wrong. So very, very dead wrong, here.

Pretty much. I don't know how people can adopt these one-sided views, but they do. People on both sides of the issue.

Ahnimus

Let's get something else straight. Back in the 50's a scientist discovered zero-point energy and some how he died and all of his research disappeared.

Many historians have found that parts of the holocaust are lies.

Many historians have found Jesus never existed, rather Apollonius of Tyana, another Messiah, did exist.

A welder, developed a hydrogen fuel cell to power his welding device, it's only bi-product is water. Yet we are still using fossil fuels for just about everything.

I guess you believe what ever you want to believe. The same is true for historians.

shiraz

Ahnimus wrote:

Way to Omit some facts. The Gaza pull-out may have worked if Israel didn't expand into the West Bank. Remember some 25 settlements were removed from Gaza, but 1200 were added to the West Bank. Get your facts straight.

Get my words straight first. I wrote it before: Yhhuda & Shomron areas. I also wrote the Israeli govt is the one who keeps those people out there, instead of pulling them out, but once again you read what you feel like.

Ahnimus

shiraz wrote:

Get my words straight first. I wrote it before: Yhhuda & Shomron areas. I also wrote the Israeli govt is the one who keeps those people out there, instead of pulling them out, but once again you read what you feel like.

So, Israel is wrong then, how does that make Israel justified.

It's like... "Sorry I hit you... oh, sorry I hit you again... oh sorry again."

When does it stop?

shiraz

Ahnimus wrote:

So, Israel is wrong then, how does that make Israel justified.

It's like... "Sorry I hit you... oh, sorry I hit you again... oh sorry again."

When does it stop?

When did I say "that does make Israel justified"?

Oh right, never. All I did was pointing out the settlers themselves & most Palestinian civilians are not to blame, the PLA & Israeli govt are.

But you, well, Keep on reading what you feel like in order to feel you're right no matter what.

MrBrian

reborncareerist wrote:

Pretty much. I don't know how people can adopt these one-sided views, but they do. People on both sides of the issue.

Well when you see the facts, like israel blowing up homes, shellings, shooting school kids, then lie, land grab whatever, then on top of that know the history of the issue/conflict, then look at the most recent crimes. it's not about just being one sided, it's about being on the right side.

I'm not for killing innocent people, I don't really agree with everything they (the palestinians) do, but that will not take away from the just cause they fight. Yes I'm on the side of the palestinians.

NMyTree

Ahnimus wrote:

I guess you believe what ever you want to believe. The same is true for historians.

Works both ways. The facts you so eagerly cling to, are subject to the same scrutiny and selective interpretations.

So what makes more sense? Choose a side to defend and completely blame the other side?

Or admit that both sides have an equal violent and combative history with just about everyone they come across; and seek accountability and responsibility from both sides?

Ahnimus

shiraz wrote:

When did I say "that does make Israel justified"?

Oh right, never. All I did was pointing out the settlers themselves & most Palestinian civilians are not to blame, the PLA & Israeli govt are.

But you, well, Keep on reading what you feel like in order to feel you're right no matter what.

The government is representative of the people. In the event the government misbehaves such as this, it's the responsibility of the people to hold the government accountable. True democracy is a government that is representative of the majority of it's citizens. You are guilty by association. Just as I am guilty for my governments wrong-doings, whatever they might be.

rebornFixer

MrBrian wrote:

Well when you see the facts, like israel blowing up homes, shellings, shooting school kids, then lie, land grab whatever, then on top of that know the history of the issue/conflict, then look at the most recent crimes. it's not about just being one sided, it's about being on the right side.

I'm not for killing innocent people, I don't really agree with everything they (the palestinians) do, but that will not take away from the just cause they fight. Yes I'm on the side of the palestinians.

Well, I feel that you've done the wrong thing in choosing a side. But that's me.

MrBrian

NMyTree wrote:

Works both ways. The facts you so eagerly cling to, are subject to the same scrutiny and selective interpretations.

So what makes more sense? Choose a side to defend and completely blame the other side?

Or admit that both sides have an equal violent and combative history with just about everyone they come across; and seek accountability and responsibility from both sides?

Fine, let's talk modern facts, israel invaded lebanon a few weeks ago, israel just killed some palestianins, israel is in violations of some major UN resoultions. Debate it.

Israel broke the recent cease fire first.

yes, the past is gone, lets talk about them now.

Ahnimus

NMyTree wrote:

Works both ways. The facts you so eagerly cling to, are subject to the same scrutiny and selective interpretations.

So what makes more sense? Choose a side to defend and completely blame the other side?

Or admit that both sides have an equal violent and combative history with just about everyone they come across; and seek accountability and responsibility from both sides?

I am pointing out both sides are wrong. Iran is driven by a religous doctorine which I find incredibly flawed. First of all, in my mind, an individual that places blind faith in an unseen entity of impossible power is ignorant and weak. A country that does that is primative and misinformed. Both Israel and Iran fall into that catagory of religously motivated agendas and social structure.

I'm just standing up against propaganda from unconditional Israeli supporters. I'd do the same for Israel, but I've yet to see any.

rebornFixer

MrBrian wrote:

Israel broke the recent cease fire first.

How so? If you're referring to that commando raid, then I'll agree ... Although in all honesty, the other side has broken more ceasefires than Israel has.

rebornFixer

Ahnimus wrote:

I'm just standing up against propaganda from unconditional Israeli supporters. I'd do the same for Israel, but I've yet to see any.

You've seen tons ... You just choose not to recognize it for what it is.

Ahnimus

reborncareerist wrote:

You've seen tons ... You just choose not to recognize it for what it is.

Such as?

shiraz

Ahnimus wrote:

The government is representative of the people. In the event the government misbehaves such as this, it's the responsibility of the people to hold the government accountable. True democracy is a government that is representative of the majority of it's citizens. You are guilty by association. Just as I am guilty for my governments wrong-doings, whatever they might be.

No, the people = the civilians are not "guilty". According to that logic I should just blame the Palestinians for all the terrorists actions, cause 80% of them voted for the Hamas. But it doesn't work that why. Civilians =/= govts. That's why I don't automaticly hate/mistrust US or UK people just because what their govt is doing in Iraq, though many of them support these actions. You, on the other hand, do. And that's makes you a very closed minded person.