Israeli Apartheid - Segregation, Control and the Creation of Bantustans in the OPT

Ahnimus

shiraz wrote:

No, the people = the civilians are not "guilty". According to that logic I should just blame the Palestinians for all the terrorists actions, cause 80% of them voted for the Hamas. But it doesn't work that why. Civilians =/= govts. That's why I don't automaticly hate/mistrust US or UK people just because what their govt is doing in Iraq, though many of them support these actions. You, on the other hand, do. And that's makes you a very closed minded person.

No, no. I'm not talking about hating people for their governments actions. I'm talking about holding them accountable. I don't believe hate is a solution for anything.

shiraz

Ahnimus wrote:

No, no. I'm not talking about hating people for their governments actions. I'm talking about holding them accountable. I don't believe hate is a solution for anything.

So that's why I see nothing but hate for the settlers around here? Is that why many people around here automaticly mistrusted me for no reason other than my "good english" & having an Internet connection? Please...

The people are not responsible for their govt actions. The settlers were sent to those areas by a left-wing govt. The latest war in Lebanon was held by a left-wing govt. The peace with Egypt was made by a right-wing govt, and so was the Gaza pull-out by none other than Ariel Sharon. You can not predict what will happen tomorrow and how your govt will actually react. And you can not really stop them from doing what ever they feel its right, only protest against it and hope it'll work.

Get real, Ahnimus.

Ahnimus

shiraz wrote:

So that's why I see nothing but hate for the settlers around here? Is that why many people around here automaticly mistrusted me for no reason other than my "good english" & having an Internet connection? Please...

The people are not responsible for their govt actions. The settlers were sent to those areas by a left-wing govt. The latest war in Lebanon was held by a left-wing govt. The peace with Egypt was made by a right-wing govt, and so was the Gaza pull-out by none other than Ariel Sharon. You can not predict what will happen tomorrow and how your govt will actually react. And you can not really stop them from doing what ever they feel its right, only protest against it and hope it'll work.

Get real, Ahnimus.

Oh ok, I see, so let's just let everyone do what they want. Look, I can't protest your governemt, only you and other Israelis can. That makes you responsible. I can't vote in your elections, only you and other Israelis can. That makes you responsible. Get it?

NMyTree

Ahnimus wrote:

I'm just standing up against propaganda from unconditional Israeli supporters. I'd do the same for Israel, but I've yet to see any.

Well, that certainly is not me. I have no unconditional support for anyone. Not even Pearl Jam:D

shiraz

Ahnimus wrote:

Oh ok, I see, so let's just let everyone do what they want. Look, I can't protest your governemt, only you and other Israelis can. That makes you responsible. I can't vote in your elections, only you and other Israelis can. That makes you responsible. Get it?

Do you know how to read? I basically wrote the govts are doing what they feel like and the only thing us civilians can do against it is to protest and hope it'll work. I also showed you the elections doesn't matter, cause there you have a right-wing govt who made peace with Egypt, and a left-wing govt who started the whole settlements story or went into a war with Lebanon. You can not predict the govt actions, and that's why the civilians are not responsible for anyhthing, get it?

Ahnimus

shiraz wrote:

Do you know how to read? I basically wrote the govts are doing what they feel like and the only thing us civilians can do against it is to protest and hope it'll work. I also showed you the elections doesn't matter, cause there you have a right-wing govt who made peace with Egypt, and a left-wing govt who started the whole settlements story or went into a war with Lebanon. You can not predict the govt actions, and that's why the civilians are not responsible for anyhthing, get it?

So no one is responsible then? Or maybe we should bomb your airports, schools, hospitals and government, kind of like what Israel did in Lebanon.

shiraz

Ahnimus wrote:

So no one is responsible then? Or maybe we should bomb your airports, schools, hospitals and government, kind of like what Israel did in Lebanon.

The govts are responsible, the civilians are not. I think this is the 5th time I'm writing this, I wonder if I can break a record today.

shiraz

Ahnimus wrote:

So no one is responsible then? Or maybe we should bomb your airports, schools, hospitals and government, kind of like what Israel did in Lebanon.

btw, we? we should bomb? who are we, you and whose army (great radiohead song!)?

civilians are paying other govts for their own govts mistakes. You or me can not & should not charge them (these civilians) for anything.

Ahnimus

shiraz wrote:

btw, we? we should bomb? who are we, you and whose army (great radiohead song!)?

Me and the allmighty [size=+3]ൠ[/size].

OutOfBreath

shiraz wrote:

When did I say "that does make Israel justified"?

Oh right, never. All I did was pointing out the settlers themselves & most Palestinian civilians are not to blame, the PLA & Israeli govt are.

But you, well, Keep on reading what you feel like in order to feel you're right no matter what.

I think we can become good friends here. That's what I've been saying for a long time now.

Peace
Dan

MrBrian

the settlers themselves and "most" palestinian civilians are not to blame.

or do you mean, most settlers and most palestinians?
----

nice so called middle road you take, it leads right to the settlements

shiraz

MrBrian wrote:

the settlers themselves and "most" palestinian civilians are not to blame.

or do you mean, most settlers and most palestinians?
----

nice so called middle road you take, it leads right to the settlements

I wrote "most" in my original post, the one you didn't read.

MrBrian

shiraz wrote:

I wrote "most" in my original post, the one you didn't read.

I'm sorry, I rushed my post, I should've taken the time to word it correctly and point out a better example of your bias.

nevertheless i'm sorry for that one, I hate rushing posts and will try harder to detail them in the future.
----

Let's try this,

How would you solve the problem, how would you go about trying to bring peace? two state?

I would give each person one vote, one person one vote, in palestine and israel.
of course it will need to be seen and aided by the entire planet.

see where/what the issues are, it's a start

shiraz

MrBrian wrote:

I'm sorry, I rushed my post, I should've taken the time to word it correctly and point out a better example of your bias.

nevertheless i'm sorry for that one, I hate rushing posts and will try harder to detail them in the future.
----

Let's try this,

How would you solve the problem, how would you go about trying to bring peace? two state?

I would give each person one vote, one person one vote, in palestine and israel.
of course it will need to be seen and aided by the entire planet.

see where/what the issues are, it's a start

No, lets try this. Stop ignoring my posts, stop automaticly assuming I'm biased without really reading my posts, stop using the same replays whenever someone else has a different point of view, and then maybe I'll bother to repeat my words from yesterday, in order you get my already-given answer to your question.

brianjd

You attended history class you would understand the comparison of Israel to White South Africans is racist. White South Africans were actual nazis. And the argument that the Black Africans own their land is the same as the Jews own Israel. The Jews were thrown off their only historical land. The White South Africans were the settlers and the masters who had no historical root to the land. No comparison...

brianjd

Ahnimus wrote:

So no one is responsible then? Or maybe we should bomb your airports, schools, hospitals and government, kind of like what Israel did in Lebanon.

shows an astounding misapprehension of politics in the middle east. Ohlmert was a centrist and governments are formed over there more often than you fart in a day and the people have little control even with their ballot....sort of like here.. and Russia.

OutOfBreath

brianjd wrote:

You attended history class you would understand the comparison of Israel to White South Africans is racist. White South Africans were actual nazis. And the argument that the Black Africans own their land is the same as the Jews own Israel. The Jews were thrown off their only historical land. The White South Africans were the settlers and the masters who had no historical root to the land. No comparison...

I dont think anyone implies that the settlers in south africa has the same historical roots as the jews in palestine. The treatment of blacks/palestinians is to a degree comparable though, as is the apparent Israeli policy of giving palestinians land, but not any land that is usable for anything. Together with the walling off, and the treatment of palestinians as inferior citizens, that's where the parallells are.

And I find the "what country belongs to which ""people""" to be a complete sidetrack, and irrelevant for anyone but historians in the real world. What does it matter if the local king was a jew 2500 years ago when it come to the people there today? There are jews, and there are thew others, called palestinians, who have also lived there for generations upon generations. If they have no legitimate claim, then all americans, except the couple houndred thousand indians, can fuck off from the US too, if the same principle is to be applied... Americans have an even shorter lineage back, than the muslims (and christians some of them) in Palestine.

Peace
Dan

brianjd

OutOfBreath wrote:

I dont think anyone implies that the settlers in south africa has the same historical roots as the jews in palestine. The treatment of blacks/palestinians is to a degree comparable though, as is the apparent Israeli policy of giving palestinians land, but not any land that is usable for anything. Together with the walling off, and the treatment of palestinians as inferior citizens, that's where the parallells are.

And I find the "what country belongs to which ""people""" to be a complete sidetrack, and irrelevant for anyone but historians in the real world. What does it matter if the local king was a jew 2500 years ago when it come to the people there today? There are jews, and there are thew others, called palestinians, who have also lived there for generations upon generations. If they have no legitimate claim, then all americans, except the couple houndred thousand indians, can fuck off from the US too, if the same principle is to be applied... Americans have an even shorter lineage back, than the muslims (and christians some of them) in Palestine.

Peace
Dan

CHECK YOUR BOOKS. JEWS CONNECTION IS NOT MERELY ONE KING 2500 YEARS AGO. IT WAS JEWISH LAND FOR THOUSANDS OF YEARS AND IT WAS 1930 YEARS AGO THAT THE ROMANS PLUDERED ISRAEL AND BANISHED THEM AFTER SLAUGHTERING HUNDRED OF THOUSANDS. THIS POLICY WAS FOLLOWED BY VIRTUALLY EVERY OCCUPYING POWER OF THE AREA INCLUDING THE CHRISTIAN GREEK BYZANTINES AND SOME OF THE MUSLIM ARABS. ONLY THE OTTOMAN TURKS ALLOWED THE JEWS TO FREELY PRACTICE THEIR RELIGION AND RETURN TO THEIR HISTORICAL LAND. THEIR HAVE BEEN JEWS IN PALESTINE/ISRAEL IN INCREASING NUMBERS SINCE THE LATE 19TH CENTURY AND THEY LIVED IN RELATIVE PEACE UNTIL THE UNITED ARAB ARMIES INVADED ISRAEL; A NATION CREATED BY THE UNITED NATIONS. INSTEAD OF ACCEPT A PARTITON OF PALESTINE EQUALLY BETWEEN JEWS AND PALESTINIANS, THE ARABS ATTACKED A PEOPLE ON THE VERGE OF EXTINCTION AT THE HANDS OF EUROPEANS. THE ARABS LOST AND SO DID THE PALESTINIANS. JUST AS EVERY OTHER ARMY INCLUDING OUR OWN HAS DONE, THE ISRAELI ARMY TOOK LANDS THEY HAD RECEIVED IN BATTLE; A BATTLE THEY DID NOT WANT.

WHEN UNITED ARAB ARMIES, IN 1967, ARABS WERE AGAIN UNITING TO BOMB ISRAEL OUT OF EXISTENCE ,BEHIND NASSAR, AND ISRAEL AGAIN HANDED IT TO THE PEOPLE BENT ON WIPING THEM OUT AND ISRAEL AGAIN GAINED MORE LAND; LAND NEEDED TO GIVE THEM ROOM FROM THE PEOPLE BENT ON THEIR FINAL DESTRUCTION. AGAIN, WHO LOST? THE PALESTINIANS. YOU MIGHT ALSO RECALL THAT EGYPT OCCUPIED THE GAZA STRIP AND INCOPORTATED IT INTO THEIR COUNTRY AND JORDAN OCCUPIED THE WEST BANK. THEY NEVER GAVE THE PALESTINIANS THIS LAND. SO WHY CONTINUE TO SLANDER ISRAEL? IS IT BECAUSE THIS IS A JEWISH NATION AND IT STILL REMAINS A THREAT TO THOSE WHO CAN'T TOLERATE A JEWISH NATION AND USE THE BOGUS PALESTINIAN ARGUMENT WHICH REVEALS NOTHING MORE THAN MODERN ANTI SEMITISM.

PALESTINIANS HAD AN OPPORTUNITY FOR A NATION IN 1948 AND AGAIN WHEN OFFERED A TREATY BY BARAK. THEY CONTINUE TO CHOOSE WAR, SUICIDE BOMBINGS OF CIVILLIANS AND MURDER. THOSE WHO EMPATHIZE WITH THEM OUGHT TO GIVE THOUGHT AS TO WHAT IT IS THEY ARE TRULY SAYING. IT SOUNDS MORE AND MORE TO AN INFORMED PERSON AS NOTHING MORE THAN HATE....

MrBrian

dude, brianjd, you see that button that say's "caps lock" on your keyboard? press it and the letters get smaller.

brianjd

MrBrian wrote:

dude, brianjd, you see that button that say's "caps lock" on your keyboard? press it and the letters get smaller.

If you dont like, dont read