If there were no humans, would there be a God?

Is there a God?

I don't think anyone knows for sure. We chalk up past civilization's worship as mythology. Who is to say that 1000 years from now there is Christian mythology?

God either exists or doesn't exist, the existence of man has no bearing on this.

DriftingByTheStorm wrote:

lol.
i love typos.

ANYHOW
You know the current interpretation of "god" seems to stem from a rational misinterpretation of a phenomenological event that was of "divine" inspiration to primitive beings.

Paleontology now shows us that ancient "cultures" dating back to Sumeria and every where in between have their "religious" roots mired in heavy psychedelic revelry. John Allegro would make a solid starting point for this interpretation of history.

Anyhow,
it seems pretty clear the deeper you dig that "original religion" was little more than an offshoot of the human mind's own capability for wondrous admiration of the universe and life. It was simply a psychedelic celebration of the supreme nature of existence, sex, and the human experience.

It is only after this original expression of "religion" that the "Religious" "Leaders" co-opted the experience, and the metaphors for this experience, and the false interpretations were then transcribed to became dogma. As common throughout history, the experiences of the many were perverted and preyed upon, manipulated by and for the benefit of the elite few.

Religion was thus perverted from an orgiastic expression of the great cosmic dance of the universe in to a contrived and irrelevant method of instilling control and order.

I guess in that sense, the answer to the OPs question is "No", without man, god would not exist, given that the original concept of "god" was nothing more than a transcendent phenomenological experience peculiar to humans themselves.

???

not only brilliant but poetic.

has Drifting become so synonymous with unbridled-genius that there everyone is too afraid to comment/reply,..??


this is my favorite part:
"original religion" was little more than an offshoot of the human mind's own capability for wondrous admiration of the universe and life.
i know ive ranted and raved about the Lascaux markings around here too much, but realistically [historically] it does seem clear that 'religiousness' (in the active sense, as opposed to what theoretical-dribblings have since dominated human-culture/civilization) stems from indefinite psychological sources such as emotion and imagination. reminds me of this book i encountered in college by Simon Schama ~ Schama's "Landscape and Memory" (1995) focussed on the relationship between physical environment and folk memory, separating the components of landscape as wood, water and rock, enmeshed in the cultural consciousness of collective "memory" that are embodied in myths, which Schama finds to be expressed outwardly in ceremony and text. --http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simon_Schama

...and thus it is perhaps even more interesting to ponder what connexions may exist, whether direct-inspirations or distant-influences, within the art of Pearl Jam. [has anyone else been logging more time on the Cornice dvd than sleeping..??]

Lizard wrote:

My exact first thought...................

You better stop me before I begin
But let me say...if I behave...can you arrange a spacious hole in the ground

For a well overlooked song, that song has a TON of great lyrics. The song flows so well.

chopitdown wrote:

God created humans...now the great part is neither of us can prove our point.

i dont have a point to prove. i have my opinion which no one has never been able to disprove to me. and cause yours relies solely on faith which requires no proof at all you simply cant.

Rats of Multa wrote:

not only brilliant but poetic.

has Drifting become so synonymous with unbridled-genius that there everyone is too afraid to comment/reply,..??

lol.

i don't think too many people around here, or around in general, are up to snuff on comparative religion ... particularly with respect to shamanistic practices, ancient cultures, and psychedelic "religion". I myself have barely scratched the surface, but have done enough digging in enough places to come up with a basic sketch of the "truth" ... i think!

It is sad though, because the record seems pretty consistent throughout early human civilization ... the "religious experience" was one and the same with the psychedelic rites and celebrations. "Worship" was little more than drug induced hallucination combined with an atmosphere of communal love and high spirits. This "divine" experience opened the "pre-historic" mind to possibilities so far beyond the every day that man as forced to reckon his place in the universe as being connected to all other things in a way that seems only possible with the supposition of a "god".

The problem i think is that ancient man was not self-aware at all before these experiences. As Terrence McKenna argued in "Food of the Gods", not only was the psychedelic mushroom the root of all religious experience, it was in all likelihood the root of ALL CONSCIOUSNESS PERIOD.

It was the psychedelically forced phenomenon of introspection that led to the metamorphosing consciousness of mankind ... and possibly simultaneously lead to the experience of "original religion".

Because man was not even self aware, how could he possibly be cognizant of the "fact" that the experience was merely a pharmacologically induced phenomenology and not evidence of a "god".

All that being said, consider my position more in disdain of "organized religion" than of teh possibility of god itself.

The only real problem i have with "god" is "his" personification.
God as an abstract concept for what drives the universe is certainly possible if not plausible.

God as some sort of humanoid divinity that "walks the heavens" is a farce, and is NEVER what the original religions of this world were about.
That god (the "christian" god) is a perversion of derivation of a misinterpretation of a primitive experience that was passed down from generation to generation with stories, "myths" and so on.

DriftingByTheStorm wrote:

lol.

i don't think too many people around here, or around in general, are up to snuff on comparative religion ... particularly with respect to shamanistic practices, ancient cultures, and psychedelic "religion". I myself have barely scratched the surface, but have done enough digging in enough places to come up with a basic sketch of the "truth" ... i think!

It is sad though, because the record seems pretty consistent throughout early human civilization ... the "religious experience" was one and the same with the psychedelic rites and celebrations. "Worship" was little more than drug induced hallucination combined with an atmosphere of communal love and high spirits. This "divine" experience opened the "pre-historic" mind to possibilities so far beyond the every day that man as forced to reckon his place in the universe as being connected to all other things in a way that seems only possible with the supposition of a "god".

The problem i think is that ancient man was not self-aware at all before these experiences. As Terrence McKenna argued in "Food of the Gods", not only was the psychedelic mushroom the root of all religious experience, it was in all likelihood the root of ALL CONSCIOUSNESS PERIOD.

It was the psychedelically forced phenomenon of introspection that led to the metamorphosing consciousness of mankind ... and possibly simultaneously lead to the experience of "original religion".

Because man was not even self aware, how could he possibly be cognizant of the "fact" that the experience was merely a pharmacologically induced phenomenology and not evidence of a "god".

All that being said, consider my position more in disdain of "organized religion" than of teh possibility of god itself.

The only real problem i have with "god" is "his" personification.
God as an abstract concept for what drives the universe is certainly possible if not plausible.

God as some sort of humanoid divinity that "walks the heavens" is a farce, and is NEVER what the original religions of this world were about.
That god (the "christian" god) is a perversion of derivation of a misinterpretation of a primitive experience that was passed down from generation to generation with stories, "myths" and so on.

you know... i once read where the story of adam and eve, the apple and all that stuff was actually about them having their eyes opened(and 'seeing the truth') due to an hallucinogenic experience. i liked that version when i read it, cause it was one i could understand and it actually made more sense than any other explanation id been told. i filed it away for future reference.

DriftingByTheStorm wrote:

It was the psychedelically forced phenomenon of introspection that led to the metamorphosing consciousness of mankind ... and possibly simultaneously lead to the experience of "original religion".

I have this mental image of a caveman, all buggered on shrooms, staring at his hands and becoming self aware....his buddy yellin 'dude, do NOT look at your hands!'...:D
McKenna was a pretty interesting fella.

catefrances wrote:

you know... i once read where the story of adam and eve, the apple and all that stuff was actually about them having their eyes opened(and 'seeing the truth') due to an hallucinogenic experience. i liked that version when i read it, cause it was one i could understand and it actually made more sense than any other explanation id been told. i filed it away for future reference.

see....that actually does make sense if you take the parable slightly more literally....but I'd be curious to know why the author thought god would seek to deny us, or make it a sin to 'see the truth'...
Adam and Eve on shams....sounds almost Manson-esque

Drowned Out wrote:

...
see....that actually does make sense if you take the parable slightly more literally....but I'd be curious to know why the author thought god would seek to deny us, or make it a sin to 'see the truth'...
Adam and Eve on shams....sounds almost Manson-esque

control? fear?

chopitdown wrote:

God created humans...now the great part is neither of us can prove our point.

...
Or... Humans created God.
God makes a prety convienitent scape goat to blame things on... and He makes a pretty good crutch to lean on. Like, does anyone think that God kills your dog... or 'Takes away' your grand parents? They die becuase they lived and death is a certainty of life. God can be used to explain away the certainty of death and ease our pain when confronted with it.
Humans have created many Gods... Zeus, Ra, Odin, Jehovah... to explain the unknowns of the Natural/Physical world. This probably explains why the gods are always so petty and demand our love... or it's the firey pits of Hell for us.
Do I believe in God? Not the gods of the Romans, the Greeks or the Bible. I believe He is greater than that. He (She or It) loves us all and does not judge us for being human. The Universe is a big place to manage. I don't think He has chosen the great apes of thise planet... circling around an averaged size star... in an averaged sized galaxy to focus His sole attention on. He has other things more important than us to worry about.