has Drifting become so synonymous with unbridled-genius that there everyone is too afraid to comment/reply,..??
lol.
i don't think too many people around here, or around in general, are up to snuff on comparative religion ... particularly with respect to shamanistic practices, ancient cultures, and psychedelic "religion". I myself have barely scratched the surface, but have done enough digging in enough places to come up with a basic sketch of the "truth" ... i think!
It is sad though, because the record seems pretty consistent throughout early human civilization ... the "religious experience" was one and the same with the psychedelic rites and celebrations. "Worship" was little more than drug induced hallucination combined with an atmosphere of communal love and high spirits. This "divine" experience opened the "pre-historic" mind to possibilities so far beyond the every day that man as forced to reckon his place in the universe as being connected to all other things in a way that seems only possible with the supposition of a "god".
The problem i think is that ancient man was not self-aware at all before these experiences. As Terrence McKenna argued in "Food of the Gods", not only was the psychedelic mushroom the root of all religious experience, it was in all likelihood the root of ALL CONSCIOUSNESS PERIOD.
It was the psychedelically forced phenomenon of introspection that led to the metamorphosing consciousness of mankind ... and possibly simultaneously lead to the experience of "original religion".
Because man was not even self aware, how could he possibly be cognizant of the "fact" that the experience was merely a pharmacologically induced phenomenology and not evidence of a "god".
All that being said, consider my position more in disdain of "organized religion" than of teh possibility of god itself.
The only real problem i have with "god" is "his" personification.
God as an abstract concept for what drives the universe is certainly possible if not plausible.
God as some sort of humanoid divinity that "walks the heavens" is a farce, and is NEVER what the original religions of this world were about. That god (the "christian" god) is a perversion of derivation of a misinterpretation of a primitive experience that was passed down from generation to generation with stories, "myths" and so on.
If I was to smile and I held out my hand
If I opened it now would you not understand?
i dont have a point to prove. i have my opinion which no one has never been able to disprove to me. and cause yours relies solely on faith which requires no proof at all you simply cant.
and what do you think i was saying?
make sure the fortune that you seek...is the fortune that you need
i don't think too many people around here, or around in general, are up to snuff on comparative religion ... particularly with respect to shamanistic practices, ancient cultures, and psychedelic "religion". I myself have barely scratched the surface, but have done enough digging in enough places to come up with a basic sketch of the "truth" ... i think!
It is sad though, because the record seems pretty consistent throughout early human civilization ... the "religious experience" was one and the same with the psychedelic rites and celebrations. "Worship" was little more than drug induced hallucination combined with an atmosphere of communal love and high spirits. This "divine" experience opened the "pre-historic" mind to possibilities so far beyond the every day that man as forced to reckon his place in the universe as being connected to all other things in a way that seems only possible with the supposition of a "god".
The problem i think is that ancient man was not self-aware at all before these experiences. As Terrence McKenna argued in "Food of the Gods", not only was the psychedelic mushroom the root of all religious experience, it was in all likelihood the root of ALL CONSCIOUSNESS PERIOD.
It was the psychedelically forced phenomenon of introspection that led to the metamorphosing consciousness of mankind ... and possibly simultaneously lead to the experience of "original religion".
Because man was not even self aware, how could he possibly be cognizant of the "fact" that the experience was merely a pharmacologically induced phenomenology and not evidence of a "god".
All that being said, consider my position more in disdain of "organized religion" than of teh possibility of god itself.
The only real problem i have with "god" is "his" personification.
God as an abstract concept for what drives the universe is certainly possible if not plausible.
God as some sort of humanoid divinity that "walks the heavens" is a farce, and is NEVER what the original religions of this world were about. That god (the "christian" god) is a perversion of derivation of a misinterpretation of a primitive experience that was passed down from generation to generation with stories, "myths" and so on.
you know... i once read where the story of adam and eve, the apple and all that stuff was actually about them having their eyes opened(and 'seeing the truth') due to an hallucinogenic experience. i liked that version when i read it, cause it was one i could understand and it actually made more sense than any other explanation id been told. i filed it away for future reference.
hear my name
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
you know... i once read where the story of adam and eve, the apple and all that stuff was actually about them having their eyes opened(and 'seeing the truth') due to an hallucinogenic experience. i liked that version when i read it, cause it was one i could understand and it actually made more sense than any other explanation id been told. i filed it away for future reference.
thats really funny,
cause i just read somewhere tonight (looking up stuff for that last post, i found some site talking about this stuff) where there is a very old picture of Adam and Eve around the tree ... and the tree is very clearly an Amanita Muscarina mushroom ... [actually here around the 5th paragraph, apparently a image in one of Allegro's books]
... weird.
... or totally obvious?
If I was to smile and I held out my hand
If I opened it now would you not understand?
It was the psychedelically forced phenomenon of introspection that led to the metamorphosing consciousness of mankind ... and possibly simultaneously lead to the experience of "original religion".
I have this mental image of a caveman, all buggered on shrooms, staring at his hands and becoming self aware....his buddy yellin 'dude, do NOT look at your hands!'...:D
McKenna was a pretty interesting fella.
you know... i once read where the story of adam and eve, the apple and all that stuff was actually about them having their eyes opened(and 'seeing the truth') due to an hallucinogenic experience. i liked that version when i read it, cause it was one i could understand and it actually made more sense than any other explanation id been told. i filed it away for future reference.
see....that actually does make sense if you take the parable slightly more literally....but I'd be curious to know why the author thought god would seek to deny us, or make it a sin to 'see the truth'...
Adam and Eve on shams....sounds almost Manson-esque
i was saying no one has ever been able to disprove my point. or show me proof that their point is valid. nothing about me having to supply proof for my opinion. or wanting to. or even feeling the need to.
hear my name
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
...
see....that actually does make sense if you take the parable slightly more literally....but I'd be curious to know why the author thought god would seek to deny us, or make it a sin to 'see the truth'...
Adam and Eve on shams....sounds almost Manson-esque
control? fear?
hear my name
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
see....that actually does make sense if you take the parable slightly more literally....but I'd be curious to know why the author thought god would seek to deny us, or make it a sin to 'see the truth'...
Adam and Eve on shams....sounds almost Manson-esque
There are thousands of questions to be asked about the bible. Why didn't Jesus accompany Frodo on his quest to destroy the ring, for example?
My answer to the original question is no. I don't believe god exists now or ever will exist. Then again, god exists to some people. But if they're gone, god will not even exist in that sense either. That's just my opinion.
God created humans...now the great part is neither of us can prove our point.
...
Or... Humans created God.
God makes a prety convienitent scape goat to blame things on... and He makes a pretty good crutch to lean on. Like, does anyone think that God kills your dog... or 'Takes away' your grand parents? They die becuase they lived and death is a certainty of life. God can be used to explain away the certainty of death and ease our pain when confronted with it.
Humans have created many Gods... Zeus, Ra, Odin, Jehovah... to explain the unknowns of the Natural/Physical world. This probably explains why the gods are always so petty and demand our love... or it's the firey pits of Hell for us.
Do I believe in God? Not the gods of the Romans, the Greeks or the Bible. I believe He is greater than that. He (She or It) loves us all and does not judge us for being human. The Universe is a big place to manage. I don't think He has chosen the great apes of thise planet... circling around an averaged size star... in an averaged sized galaxy to focus His sole attention on. He has other things more important than us to worry about.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
The problem i think is that ancient man was not self-aware at all before these experiences. As Terrence McKenna argued in "Food of the Gods", not only was the psychedelic mushroom the root of all religious experience, it was in all likelihood the root of ALL CONSCIOUSNESS PERIOD.
Evolutionary biology argues the theory that by standing up our ancestors allowed their brains to grow larger and make more connections thus creating our frontal lobe, siege of our consciousness. Food, however fun it might be, never created a frontal lobe. And I'm not even mentionning primates who obviously have a self conscience as well.
It was the psychedelically forced phenomenon of introspection that led to the metamorphosing consciousness of mankind ... and possibly simultaneously lead to the experience of "original religion".
What do you make of regions where shrooms were not available, as psychedelic stuff does not grow everywhere? I'd agree that by being conscious of himself, man also had a conscience of nature, but to argue this was made possible by mushrooms is a stretch.
God as some sort of humanoid divinity that "walks the heavens" is a farce, and is NEVER what the original religions of this world were about. That god (the "christian" god) is a perversion of derivation of a misinterpretation of a primitive experience that was passed down from generation to generation with stories, "myths" and so on.
Meh, anthropomorphisation of Gods is older, much older than that. Egyptians already had walking human/animal Gods thousands of years before that. I think giving a human form to nature/god is an easier way to grasp the concept which is probably why it was so widely used.
...
What do you make of regions where shrooms were not available, as psychedelic stuff does not grow everywhere? I'd agree that by being conscious of himself, man also had a conscience of nature, but to argue this was made possible by mushrooms is a stretch....
have you forgotten peyote and its use by indigenous americans?
hear my name
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
Evolutionary biology argues the theory that by standing up our ancestors allowed their brains to grow larger and make more connections thus creating our frontal lobe, siege of our consciousness. Food, however fun it might be, never created a frontal lobe. And I'm not even mentioning primates who obviously have a self conscience as well.
What do you make of regions where shrooms were not available, as psychedelic stuff does not grow everywhere? I'd agree that by being conscious of himself, man also had a conscience of nature, but to argue this was made possible by mushrooms is a stretch.
Meh, anthropomorphization of Gods is older, much older than that. Egyptians already had walking human/animal Gods thousands of years before that. I think giving a human form to nature/god is an easier way to grasp the concept which is probably why it was so widely used.
Psychedelic drugs are available in some form or another in every inhabitable region of the globe, and they were found and used by just about every early civilization -- from the Hindus to the Aztecs and Mayans, to the cultures of the fertile crescent, to North American indians, and all the little piddle dink island with tribes.
Mushrooms grew in the fertile crescent and are arguably a large part of the "cow worship" that evolved there ... simply because cow shit was the where those mushrooms grew ... almost exclusively in cow dung.
As for your argument over the frontal lobe,
look this is all speculation that can never be proved,
but having a frontal lobe doesn't necessarily mean consciousness in the sense of SELF-AWARENESS ... certainly it is necessary for rational thought, and all sorts of "human" skills. But how do you know that having one meant that one was capable of the internal dialogue, "I am a human, i am self aware, i know my place in the universe, i am a unique being, this is my family, she is my love, he is my child, and i am a man."
I don't think you can say that, and it sure as fuck makes sense that the ingestion of psychedelics would provide a catalyst for that self-awareness.
And further, to illustrate the problems in assessing the truth here. How do you know the frontal lobe predates psychedelic use? Could proto-human, or ape-man, or monkeys, or whatever creatures not have injested those "liberty caps" long before this region of the brain was developed?
As to your concern about where there weren't psychedelics,
like i said, look to any major region in the past, and you will find psychedelic use there in ancient history. Analysis of most early cultures will show this to be true.
In the case of peoples in South America, they got so creative and hungry for the rush they actually figured out how to mix two or more separate plants together in to Ayahuasa in order that the chemical dependence of the actual psychedelic upon a MAOI was realized do to the properties of harmaline. Thats some pretty crazy chemistry for ancient peoples.
As for anthropomorphization ... i wasn't saying that Christianity started that.
I'm saying my only personal disagreement with the celebration of "god" in general is in the anthropomorphization of that deity. There is no need for God to be any thing at all like us.
If I was to smile and I held out my hand
If I opened it now would you not understand?
There were other species of human as well, as many as three ~40 thousand years ago. They probably viewed themsleves something like we do now-invincible.
I think evolution must have an innate sence of humour.
The only real problem i have with "god" is "his" personification.
God as an abstract concept for what drives the universe is certainly possible if not plausible.
i am agnostic.....and i think the personification is my biggest issue as well. i don't think there is A god, ONE god, the 'right' god, etc.....i think IF a 'god' exists....it does not have a 'form'...but merely is LIFE, itself. and to that end, with or without humans..LIFE can and will continue, perhaps even thrive all the more.....and thus 'god' would always continue to exist.
Yes, there would still be a God if our species went extinct.....God would elevate Badgers to the niche formerly occupied by humans.
All the world will be your enemy, Prince with a thousand enemies, and whenever they catch you, they will kill you. But first they must catch you, digger, listener, runner, prince with the swift warning. Be cunning and full of tricks and your people shall never be destroyed.
i don't think too many people around here, or around in general, are up to snuff on comparative religion ... particularly with respect to shamanistic practices, ancient cultures, and psychedelic "religion". I myself have barely scratched the surface, but have done enough digging in enough places to come up with a basic sketch of the "truth" ... i think!
It is sad though, because the record seems pretty consistent throughout early human civilization ... the "religious experience" was one and the same with the psychedelic rites and celebrations. "Worship" was little more than drug induced hallucination combined with an atmosphere of communal love and high spirits. This "divine" experience opened the "pre-historic" mind to possibilities so far beyond the every day that man as forced to reckon his place in the universe as being connected to all other things in a way that seems only possible with the supposition of a "god".
The problem i think is that ancient man was not self-aware at all before these experiences. As Terrence McKenna argued in "Food of the Gods", not only was the psychedelic mushroom the root of all religious experience, it was in all likelihood the root of ALL CONSCIOUSNESS PERIOD.
It was the psychedelically forced phenomenon of introspection that led to the metamorphosing consciousness of mankind ... and possibly simultaneously lead to the experience of "original religion".
Because man was not even self aware, how could he possibly be cognizant of the "fact" that the experience was merely a pharmacologically induced phenomenology and not evidence of a "god".
All that being said, consider my position more in disdain of "organized religion" than of teh possibility of god itself.
The only real problem i have with "god" is "his" personification.
God as an abstract concept for what drives the universe is certainly possible if not plausible.
God as some sort of humanoid divinity that "walks the heavens" is a farce, and is NEVER what the original religions of this world were about. That god (the "christian" god) is a perversion of derivation of a misinterpretation of a primitive experience that was passed down from generation to generation with stories, "myths" and so on.
yeah. youve read some Nietzsche too i am assuming...??
ive always held the thought that consciousness probably occurred by accident, which would meld with your hallucinogenic catalyzation theory. my personal thought is that cave paintings, originating in somewhat isolated conditions as evidences of teaching practices [hunting/survival lessons] may have induced degrees of thought as distinct sects and tribes were given to encounter the images in their nomadic experiences, thus posing the basic questions of existentialism and naturalism that separate the human species from the general animal kingdom. it's an interesting conversation, because who can say what hallucinogenic veggies might do to an 'unconscious' mind, and of course the same may be raised about art,...??
we don’t know just where our bones will rest,
to dust i guess,
forgotten and absorbed into the earth below,..
yeah. youve read some Nietzsche too i am assuming...??
but of course.
i don't read much philosophy anymore -- been about 10 years since i read anything outside of maybe a brief glance at the Tao Te Ching on the toilet, lol -- but my favorite highschool teacher was obsessed with FN, and it rubbed off on me too.
Wish i could stick around and yak more about this,
but i gotta go to the fucking DMV.
blech.
If I was to smile and I held out my hand
If I opened it now would you not understand?
have you forgotten peyote and its use by indigenous americans?
Yes, and opium in the east. The point of what you quoted was that some regions do not naturally have psychedelic substances available. Obviously I was wrong since (as Drifting says below) various substances are available everywhere and true enough, most poisons if used in small doses can cause hallucinations. I guess I was too focused on the recreationnal drugs used today.
Psychedelic drugs are available in some form or another in every inhabitable region of the globe, and they were found and used by just about every early civilization -- from the Hindus to the Aztecs and Mayans, to the cultures of the fertile crescent, to North American indians, and all the little piddle dink island with tribes.
While I was writing all this I was thinking about ancient egypt and I wasn't too sure what type of psychedelic drugs are available over there, but I guess there are some everywhere.
However this implies that all hallucinogenics had the same effect everywhere, whatever the plant/mushroom used. Which is a big supposition.
As for your argument over the frontal lobe,
look this is all speculation that can never be proved,
but having a frontal lobe doesn't necessarily mean consciousness in the sense of SELF-AWARENESS ... certainly it is necessary for rational thought, and all sorts of "human" skills. But how do you know that having one meant that one was capable of the internal dialogue, "I am a human, i am self aware, i know my place in the universe, i am a unique being, this is my family, she is my love, he is my child, and i am a man."
Comparative anatomy, you look for differences in the brain structure between species to explain differences between their behaviors. It's all just theories, but just like evolution/creationism, one has scientific backing.
I don't think you can say that, and it sure as fuck makes sense that the ingestion of psychedelics would provide a catalyst for that self-awareness.
Absolutely, for a limited period. To say that if I ingest hallucinogenics I gain self-awareness is a strong supposition, to say that this newly acquired capacity will be transmitted to my descendant is an even stronger one.
And further, to illustrate the problems in assessing the truth here. How do you know the frontal lobe predates psychedelic use? Could proto-human, or ape-man, or monkeys, or whatever creatures not have injested those "liberty caps" long before this region of the brain was developed?
Sure, but it doesn't mean that ingesting these magical substances can change the brain structure. If you consider that our specific brain structure is responsible for our specific behaviors.
As to your concern about where there weren't psychedelics,
like i said, look to any major region in the past, and you will find psychedelic use there in ancient history. Analysis of most early cultures will show this to be true.
I agree, my mistake.
As for anthropomorphization ... i wasn't saying that Christianity started that.
I'm saying my only personal disagreement with the celebration of "god" in general is in the anthropomorphization of that deity. There is no need for God to be any thing at all like us.
Definitely. But we evolve with time, at once there maybe was a need for a "human" God, this will change and in the future God maybe will be considered differently. All this takes some time I guess.
edit : I have no idea why I have a sad face in title
Yes, and opium in the east. The point of what you quoted was that some regions do not naturally have psychedelic substances available. Obviously I was wrong since (as Drifting says below) various substances are available everywhere and true enough, most poisons if used in small doses can cause hallucinations. I guess I was too focused on the recreationnal drugs used today.
While I was writing all this I was thinking about ancient egypt and I wasn't too sure what type of psychedelic drugs are available over there, but I guess there are some everywhere.
However this implies that all hallucinogenics had the same effect everywhere, whatever the plant/mushroom used. Which is a big supposition.
Comparative anatomy, you look for differences in the brain structure between species to explain differences between their behaviors. It's all just theories, but just like evolution/creationism, one has scientific backing.
Absolutely, for a limited period. To say that if I ingest hallucinogenics I gain self-awareness is a strong supposition, to say that this newly acquired capacity will be transmitted to my descendant is an even stronger one.
Sure, but it doesn't mean that ingesting these magical substances can change the brain structure. If you consider that our specific brain structure is responsible for our specific behaviors.
I agree, my mistake.
Definitely. But we evolve with time, at once there maybe was a need for a "human" God, this will change and in the future God maybe will be considered differently. All this takes some time I guess.
edit : I have no idea why I have a sad face in title
I think where we fail to come to agreement is in our reliance on absolutes.
Let us go back to center with the proposition of psychedelics and consciousness. Clearly structures in the brain develop over long periods of time ... but look at it like this:
perhaps consciousness and the structures in the brain responsible for it evolved in tandem with the use of these substances.
Think of it as more of a catalyst and symbiotic evolution,
with psychedelics always having been there ... their use is long standing and of great importance in ancient cultures.
On the topic of the uniform nature of psychedelics,
beyond the obvious recognition that even the same psychedelic (particularly the naturaly occuring ones discussed here) does not have the same affect amongst different peoples. Heck, they don't even have the same affect on the same person.
But, on their uniformity, i don't think it is of practical concern to this discussion. All of them are of significant strength and similarity (trust me, i've done most of them) to achieve the same basic end result: enhanced introspection, and the production phenomenological events interpretable to the ancient (and arguably even the modern) mind as "religious".
Comparative anatomy, you look for differences in the brain structure between species to explain differences between their behaviors. It's all just theories, but just like evolution/creationism, one has scientific backing.
i take issue with this statement because it sounds like you are relegating the very idea we are here discussing to myth based on the fact that science has yet to come up with an empirical means of assessing the affect of psychedelics on the evolution of our species (or, god forbid [no pun], a empirical means of quantifying the impact of psychedelics on the origins of "religion")
If I was to smile and I held out my hand
If I opened it now would you not understand?
All the world will be your enemy, Prince with a thousand enemies, and whenever they catch you, they will kill you. But first they must catch you, digger, listener, runner, prince with the swift warning. Be cunning and full of tricks and your people shall never be destroyed.
...
Of course... that all goes out the window if rattlesnakes evolve wings.
Interesting.....the ravens and crows could still handle 'em.
All the world will be your enemy, Prince with a thousand enemies, and whenever they catch you, they will kill you. But first they must catch you, digger, listener, runner, prince with the swift warning. Be cunning and full of tricks and your people shall never be destroyed.
wow, you really have me thinking here... This was always one of my favorite songs. It always felt epic to me, even if it were written from ed's perspective. But I totally see your point. It really could be written from the perspective of god, at least some of it. Wow, i have to keep listening and analyzing...[/quote
check out this particular part of the song. To me, it's very clear what it's about. But that doesn't mean I'm right
everyone is practicing
this world's an accident
I was the fool because i thought
I thought the world
turns out, the world thought me
it's all the other way round
we're upside down
check out this particular part of the song. To me, it's very clear what it's about. But that doesn't mean I'm right
everyone is practicing
this world's an accident
I was the fool because i thought
I thought the world
turns out, the world thought me
it's all the other way round
we're upside down
from the lyrics you quoted above, i get that ed is saying all this time mankind thinks the world has a purpose, that it was started by someone/something with something in mind. and theyre all practising their religions in deference to this being cause they think that. now hes discovered that there is no purpose. we are what we are and nothing more. just like all the other living things. that we as humans can put any spin on the world we like, it wont change anything. we arent controlling it, it is controlling us. it gave birth to us, not the other way around.
hear my name
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
Comments
lol.
i don't think too many people around here, or around in general, are up to snuff on comparative religion ... particularly with respect to shamanistic practices, ancient cultures, and psychedelic "religion". I myself have barely scratched the surface, but have done enough digging in enough places to come up with a basic sketch of the "truth" ... i think!
It is sad though, because the record seems pretty consistent throughout early human civilization ... the "religious experience" was one and the same with the psychedelic rites and celebrations. "Worship" was little more than drug induced hallucination combined with an atmosphere of communal love and high spirits. This "divine" experience opened the "pre-historic" mind to possibilities so far beyond the every day that man as forced to reckon his place in the universe as being connected to all other things in a way that seems only possible with the supposition of a "god".
The problem i think is that ancient man was not self-aware at all before these experiences. As Terrence McKenna argued in "Food of the Gods", not only was the psychedelic mushroom the root of all religious experience, it was in all likelihood the root of ALL CONSCIOUSNESS PERIOD.
It was the psychedelically forced phenomenon of introspection that led to the metamorphosing consciousness of mankind ... and possibly simultaneously lead to the experience of "original religion".
Because man was not even self aware, how could he possibly be cognizant of the "fact" that the experience was merely a pharmacologically induced phenomenology and not evidence of a "god".
All that being said, consider my position more in disdain of "organized religion" than of teh possibility of god itself.
The only real problem i have with "god" is "his" personification.
God as an abstract concept for what drives the universe is certainly possible if not plausible.
God as some sort of humanoid divinity that "walks the heavens" is a farce, and is NEVER what the original religions of this world were about.
That god (the "christian" god) is a perversion of derivation of a misinterpretation of a primitive experience that was passed down from generation to generation with stories, "myths" and so on.
If I opened it now would you not understand?
and what do you think i was saying?
you know... i once read where the story of adam and eve, the apple and all that stuff was actually about them having their eyes opened(and 'seeing the truth') due to an hallucinogenic experience. i liked that version when i read it, cause it was one i could understand and it actually made more sense than any other explanation id been told. i filed it away for future reference.
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
thats really funny,
cause i just read somewhere tonight (looking up stuff for that last post, i found some site talking about this stuff) where there is a very old picture of Adam and Eve around the tree ... and the tree is very clearly an Amanita Muscarina mushroom ... [actually here around the 5th paragraph, apparently a image in one of Allegro's books]
... weird.
... or totally obvious?
If I opened it now would you not understand?
McKenna was a pretty interesting fella.
see....that actually does make sense if you take the parable slightly more literally....but I'd be curious to know why the author thought god would seek to deny us, or make it a sin to 'see the truth'...
Adam and Eve on shams....sounds almost Manson-esque
i was saying no one has ever been able to disprove my point. or show me proof that their point is valid. nothing about me having to supply proof for my opinion. or wanting to. or even feeling the need to.
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
control? fear?
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
There are thousands of questions to be asked about the bible. Why didn't Jesus accompany Frodo on his quest to destroy the ring, for example?
My answer to the original question is no. I don't believe god exists now or ever will exist. Then again, god exists to some people. But if they're gone, god will not even exist in that sense either. That's just my opinion.
naděje umírá poslední
Or... Humans created God.
God makes a prety convienitent scape goat to blame things on... and He makes a pretty good crutch to lean on. Like, does anyone think that God kills your dog... or 'Takes away' your grand parents? They die becuase they lived and death is a certainty of life. God can be used to explain away the certainty of death and ease our pain when confronted with it.
Humans have created many Gods... Zeus, Ra, Odin, Jehovah... to explain the unknowns of the Natural/Physical world. This probably explains why the gods are always so petty and demand our love... or it's the firey pits of Hell for us.
Do I believe in God? Not the gods of the Romans, the Greeks or the Bible. I believe He is greater than that. He (She or It) loves us all and does not judge us for being human. The Universe is a big place to manage. I don't think He has chosen the great apes of thise planet... circling around an averaged size star... in an averaged sized galaxy to focus His sole attention on. He has other things more important than us to worry about.
Hail, Hail!!!
Meh, anthropomorphisation of Gods is older, much older than that. Egyptians already had walking human/animal Gods thousands of years before that. I think giving a human form to nature/god is an easier way to grasp the concept which is probably why it was so widely used.
have you forgotten peyote and its use by indigenous americans?
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
and they say drugs arent the answer. :rolleyes:
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
Psychedelic drugs are available in some form or another in every inhabitable region of the globe, and they were found and used by just about every early civilization -- from the Hindus to the Aztecs and Mayans, to the cultures of the fertile crescent, to North American indians, and all the little piddle dink island with tribes.
Mushrooms grew in the fertile crescent and are arguably a large part of the "cow worship" that evolved there ... simply because cow shit was the where those mushrooms grew ... almost exclusively in cow dung.
As for your argument over the frontal lobe,
look this is all speculation that can never be proved,
but having a frontal lobe doesn't necessarily mean consciousness in the sense of SELF-AWARENESS ... certainly it is necessary for rational thought, and all sorts of "human" skills. But how do you know that having one meant that one was capable of the internal dialogue, "I am a human, i am self aware, i know my place in the universe, i am a unique being, this is my family, she is my love, he is my child, and i am a man."
I don't think you can say that, and it sure as fuck makes sense that the ingestion of psychedelics would provide a catalyst for that self-awareness.
And further, to illustrate the problems in assessing the truth here. How do you know the frontal lobe predates psychedelic use? Could proto-human, or ape-man, or monkeys, or whatever creatures not have injested those "liberty caps" long before this region of the brain was developed?
As to your concern about where there weren't psychedelics,
like i said, look to any major region in the past, and you will find psychedelic use there in ancient history. Analysis of most early cultures will show this to be true.
In the case of peoples in South America, they got so creative and hungry for the rush they actually figured out how to mix two or more separate plants together in to Ayahuasa in order that the chemical dependence of the actual psychedelic upon a MAOI was realized do to the properties of harmaline. Thats some pretty crazy chemistry for ancient peoples.
As for anthropomorphization ... i wasn't saying that Christianity started that.
I'm saying my only personal disagreement with the celebration of "god" in general is in the anthropomorphization of that deity. There is no need for God to be any thing at all like us.
If I opened it now would you not understand?
I think evolution must have an innate sence of humour.
i am agnostic.....and i think the personification is my biggest issue as well. i don't think there is A god, ONE god, the 'right' god, etc.....i think IF a 'god' exists....it does not have a 'form'...but merely is LIFE, itself. and to that end, with or without humans..LIFE can and will continue, perhaps even thrive all the more.....and thus 'god' would always continue to exist.
Let's just breathe...
I am myself like you somehow
yeah. youve read some Nietzsche too i am assuming...??
ive always held the thought that consciousness probably occurred by accident, which would meld with your hallucinogenic catalyzation theory. my personal thought is that cave paintings, originating in somewhat isolated conditions as evidences of teaching practices [hunting/survival lessons] may have induced degrees of thought as distinct sects and tribes were given to encounter the images in their nomadic experiences, thus posing the basic questions of existentialism and naturalism that separate the human species from the general animal kingdom. it's an interesting conversation, because who can say what hallucinogenic veggies might do to an 'unconscious' mind, and of course the same may be raised about art,...??
to dust i guess,
forgotten and absorbed into the earth below,..
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
but of course.
i don't read much philosophy anymore -- been about 10 years since i read anything outside of maybe a brief glance at the Tao Te Ching on the toilet, lol -- but my favorite highschool teacher was obsessed with FN, and it rubbed off on me too.
Wish i could stick around and yak more about this,
but i gotta go to the fucking DMV.
blech.
If I opened it now would you not understand?
While I was writing all this I was thinking about ancient egypt and I wasn't too sure what type of psychedelic drugs are available over there, but I guess there are some everywhere.
However this implies that all hallucinogenics had the same effect everywhere, whatever the plant/mushroom used. Which is a big supposition.
Comparative anatomy, you look for differences in the brain structure between species to explain differences between their behaviors. It's all just theories, but just like evolution/creationism, one has scientific backing.
Absolutely, for a limited period. To say that if I ingest hallucinogenics I gain self-awareness is a strong supposition, to say that this newly acquired capacity will be transmitted to my descendant is an even stronger one. Sure, but it doesn't mean that ingesting these magical substances can change the brain structure. If you consider that our specific brain structure is responsible for our specific behaviors. I agree, my mistake. Definitely. But we evolve with time, at once there maybe was a need for a "human" God, this will change and in the future God maybe will be considered differently. All this takes some time I guess.
edit : I have no idea why I have a sad face in title
My guess would be the societal insects, such as the Bees or the Ants.
For their sake... I hope they don't create God in their image.
Hail, Hail!!!
I think where we fail to come to agreement is in our reliance on absolutes.
Let us go back to center with the proposition of psychedelics and consciousness. Clearly structures in the brain develop over long periods of time ... but look at it like this:
perhaps consciousness and the structures in the brain responsible for it evolved in tandem with the use of these substances.
Think of it as more of a catalyst and symbiotic evolution,
with psychedelics always having been there ... their use is long standing and of great importance in ancient cultures.
On the topic of the uniform nature of psychedelics,
beyond the obvious recognition that even the same psychedelic (particularly the naturaly occuring ones discussed here) does not have the same affect amongst different peoples. Heck, they don't even have the same affect on the same person.
But, on their uniformity, i don't think it is of practical concern to this discussion. All of them are of significant strength and similarity (trust me, i've done most of them) to achieve the same basic end result: enhanced introspection, and the production phenomenological events interpretable to the ancient (and arguably even the modern) mind as "religious".
i take issue with this statement because it sounds like you are relegating the very idea we are here discussing to myth based on the fact that science has yet to come up with an empirical means of assessing the affect of psychedelics on the evolution of our species (or, god forbid [no pun], a empirical means of quantifying the impact of psychedelics on the origins of "religion")
If I opened it now would you not understand?
2) Rabbits
3) Ravens
4) Crows
5) Bees
6) Termites
7) Ants
That's the line of succession.
Of course... that all goes out the window if rattlesnakes evolve wings.
Hail, Hail!!!
from the lyrics you quoted above, i get that ed is saying all this time mankind thinks the world has a purpose, that it was started by someone/something with something in mind. and theyre all practising their religions in deference to this being cause they think that. now hes discovered that there is no purpose. we are what we are and nothing more. just like all the other living things. that we as humans can put any spin on the world we like, it wont change anything. we arent controlling it, it is controlling us. it gave birth to us, not the other way around.
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say