Libertarian ideology

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  • angelica
    angelica Posts: 6,038
    Ahnimus wrote:
    A new system needs to be created. Something like Communism with a different name. Possibly anarchy. But I'm far more concerned with self-perception.
    How do you propose to implement your system? Do you wait for people to join, or do you take measures to impose the system on them?
    "The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr

    http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta

    Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
  • Ahnimus
    Ahnimus Posts: 10,560
    angelica wrote:
    How do you propose to implement your system? Do you wait for people to join, or do you take measures to impose the system on them?

    I guess I'm going to have to wait for newageness to become looked down on, and wait for all the new agers to die off.
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • angelica
    angelica Posts: 6,038
    Ahnimus wrote:
    I guess I'm going to have to wait for newageness to become looked down on, and wait for all the new agers to die off.
    Are you going to answer the question?
    "The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr

    http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta

    Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
  • Ahnimus
    Ahnimus Posts: 10,560
    angelica wrote:
    Are you going to answer the question?

    I believe I did answer the question. I need to wait for your kind to become extinct so we can begin to rationalize.
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • Ahnimus
    Ahnimus Posts: 10,560
    Well, I'm off to learn something. Chapter 11: The Visual Cortex of Primates

    Which begins with a quote from Einstein "We should make things as simple as possible, but not simpler."
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • angelica
    angelica Posts: 6,038
    Ahnimus wrote:
    I believe I did answer the question. I need to wait for your kind to become extinct so we can begin to rationalize.
    I was wondering what you are proposing because we've killed approximately 100 million people in the last century alone, and I would think imposing a new system and implementing it in any way other than by choice would continue the patterns of non-acceptance of what evolution has brought about. Non-acceptance of what is tends to bring in theories of how we humans can make it "better", historically. including the force of trying to enact our egoistic moral rule to all.
    "The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr

    http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta

    Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
  • mammasan
    mammasan Posts: 5,656
    Ahnimus wrote:
    So.. how do you explain physics?

    Physics is the science that deals with matter and energy and their interactions.

    I'm not debating that we are connected with the universe on a molecular level. I disagree with you at the point where you believe that it is this connection that defines our behavior. I believe that our behavior is defined by a plethora of influences and events but in the end it is our free will that decides what actions or lack of action we take.
    "When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads." - Ron Paul
  • Ahnimus
    Ahnimus Posts: 10,560
    mammasan wrote:
    Physics is the science that deals with matter and energy and their interactions.

    I'm not debating that we are connected with the universe on a molecular level. I disagree with you at the point where you believe that it is this connection that defines our behavior. I believe that our behavior is defined by a plethora of influences and events but in the end it is our free will that decides what actions or lack of action we take.

    That is a contradiction.
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • baraka
    baraka Posts: 1,268
    I thought I clicked on the libertarian thread?

    Anyway, I just read through the wikipedia site for libertarianism and there appears to be several angles ranging from wanting to minimize government to out right dissolving it. I still need to read up on Paul to see exactly what kind of libertarian he is. Overall, libertarianism to be a bit too self-serving for me. I mean, it really seems to be what we already have without the all the protections. There are really many points that raise questions. It just seems incomplete, I see many possible disadvantages.

    As far as 'protectors of liberty or freedom', I don't know, but it seems to me that is the governments job via a national defense, police, or the constitution.

    As far as taxes, well I look at that as a social contract. Yes, this contract can and has been abused, but I prefer to work on those issues than reinventing the wheel with a untested libertarian approach. I don't buy the 'taxes are theft' argument. One can break this social contract at any time and denounce residency. No gun here, unless you break that contract. Everyone here benefits from some sort of government services.

    I'm sure I'll have more..........
    The greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance,
    but the illusion of knowledge.
    ~Daniel Boorstin

    Only a life lived for others is worth living.
    ~Albert Einstein
  • mammasan
    mammasan Posts: 5,656
    Ahnimus wrote:
    That is a contradiction.

    How so? We are all influenced by many factors in our life. Each person, event, etc... helps mold who we are., but when the point of reacting to an event occurs the decision is ultimately up to us. It's not up the the people or events that have influenced us or the molecular connection we have with the universe. That is free will because in the end we make the decisions and are responsible for them.
    "When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads." - Ron Paul
  • Alex_Coe
    Alex_Coe Posts: 762
    Well without delving into the social contract theory, I think everything about Libertarianism is good, in that it reduces the scope of federal and state government down to: protect the people and their property.

    Libertarianism is socially Liberal and fiscally Conservative. That to me is the best imaginable government.
  • mammasan
    mammasan Posts: 5,656
    Alex_Coe wrote:
    Well without delving into the social contract theory, I think everything about Libertarianism is good, in that it reduces the scope of federal and state government down to: protect the people and their property.

    Libertarianism is socially Liberal and fiscally Conservative. That to me is the best imaginable government.


    Well it's social Liberal in that it leaves the decision on social issues to the people of each state. Plus you will never see a libertarian supporting any type of government run or imposed universal healthcare.
    "When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads." - Ron Paul
  • baraka
    baraka Posts: 1,268
    Alex_Coe wrote:
    Well without delving into the social contract theory, I think everything about Libertarianism is good, in that it reduces the scope of federal and state government down to: protect the people and their property.

    Libertarianism is socially Liberal and fiscally Conservative. That to me is the best imaginable government.

    You know, that was my impression at first too, but the more I read up on it, the more it concerns me. Their focus is narrow, I think. And there seems to be a diversity of libertarian perspectives.
    The greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance,
    but the illusion of knowledge.
    ~Daniel Boorstin

    Only a life lived for others is worth living.
    ~Albert Einstein
  • baraka
    baraka Posts: 1,268
    mammasan wrote:
    Well it's social Liberal in that it leaves the decision on social issues to the people of each state. Plus you will never see a libertarian supporting any type of government run or imposed universal healthcare.


    mammasan, speaking of health care, what is the libertarian approach? Our current system is needs much improvement. Do they have any ideas? I'm sure I can look it up, but you probably can save me the effort. ;)
    The greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance,
    but the illusion of knowledge.
    ~Daniel Boorstin

    Only a life lived for others is worth living.
    ~Albert Einstein
  • mammasan
    mammasan Posts: 5,656
    baraka wrote:
    You know, that was my impression at first too, but the more I read up on it, the more it concerns me. Their focus is narrow, I think. And there seems to be a diversity of libertarian perspectives.


    True there is no one clear Libertarian vision. There are libertarians who just want a scaled back version of our federal government and less government intervention in our everyday lives. then you have libertarians who want government for the sole purposes of national defense. Our federal government has grown to big and powerful to every be truely removed, but it can be scaled down significantly. Libertarians seem to be the only ones wanting to do this. Check out Ron Pauls website and see where he stands on the issues.
    "When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads." - Ron Paul
  • baraka
    baraka Posts: 1,268
    mammasan wrote:
    True there is no one clear Libertarian vision. There are libertarians who just want a scaled back version of our federal government and less government intervention in our everyday lives. then you have libertarians who want government for the sole purposes of national defense. Our federal government has grown to big and powerful to every be truely removed, but it can be scaled down significantly. Libertarians seem to be the only ones wanting to do this. Check out Ron Pauls website and see where he stands on the issues.

    Thanks mammasan. I agree that our government has become somewhat bloated and needs some work. I'm actually on Paul's site now. Like I said, I'm sure I'll have more questions after I'm a bit more educated on the subject.
    The greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance,
    but the illusion of knowledge.
    ~Daniel Boorstin

    Only a life lived for others is worth living.
    ~Albert Einstein
  • mammasan
    mammasan Posts: 5,656
    baraka wrote:
    mammasan, speaking of health care, what is the libertarian approach? Our current system is needs much improvement. Do they have any ideas? I'm sure I can look it up, but you probably can save me the effort. ;)

    Well libertarians don't believe that the government should force all it's citizens into one universal healthcare plan. I'm not 100% sure on their stance because mine varies sightly, but that is what I understand it to be. I don't support universal healthcare because I believe our government is too corrupt and plaqued with ineptitude to properly manage something so big. Much like most social programs in this country the amount of mismanagement of funds and lack of over-sight is sickening. The same problems would inhabit universal healthcare and in the end it would probabaly end up being more expensive to tax payers than if they went out and procurred their own healthcare coverage.
    "When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads." - Ron Paul
  • prism
    prism Posts: 2,440
    mammasan wrote:
    Well libertarians don't believe that the government should force all it's citizens into one universal healthcare plan. I'm not 100% sure on their stance because mine varies sightly, but that is what I understand it to be. I don't support universal healthcare because I believe our government is too corrupt and plaqued with ineptitude to properly manage something so big. Much like most social programs in this country the amount of mismanagement of funds and lack of over-sight is sickening. The same problems would inhabit universal healthcare and in the end it would probabaly end up being more expensive to tax payers than if they went out and procurred their own healthcare coverage.

    so what is the libertarian answer for those that through no fault of their own are uninsureable and are not independently wealthy? under libertarian policy are they supposed to fuck off and die?
    *~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
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  • baraka
    baraka Posts: 1,268
    prism wrote:
    so what is the libertarian answer for those that through no fault of their own are uninsureable and are not independently wealthy? under libertarian policy are they supposed to fuck off and die?

    I have that same question, prism.

    And, Yea, this thread is about libertarian ideology again!
    The greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance,
    but the illusion of knowledge.
    ~Daniel Boorstin

    Only a life lived for others is worth living.
    ~Albert Einstein
  • mammasan
    mammasan Posts: 5,656
    prism wrote:
    so what is the libertarian answer for those that through no fault of their own are uninsureable and are not independently wealthy? under libertarian policy are they supposed to fuck off and die?

    Like I said I'm not 100% sure as to what libertarian belief is on universal healthcare. I deviate from them, slightly, in that aspect. farfrom glorified would be better equiped to answer the question. I don't think that libertarians what people to fuck off and die as you so eliquently put it. They just believe that it is not the role of the government to provide this service.
    "When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads." - Ron Paul

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