becos the women around here dont hate me enough already

Jeanie · April 2007

It's official! I'm lost!!

Who am I? What day is it? :eek:

angelica · April 2007

gue_barium wrote:

Plus, I don't wear make-up.

Gosh, you're a bit miffed with me this morning.

Yes I am.

norm · April 2007

Jeanie wrote:

It's official! I'm lost!!

Who am I? What day is it? :eek:

This thread has gone through so many incarnations I no longer know what it is about.

But I'll keep reading.

gue_barium · April 2007

Jeanie wrote:

It's official! I'm lost!!

Who am I? What day is it? :eek:

The nonsensical thread meets its nonsensical end
via Jeanie, such a pretty name.

And i'm sure Catefrancis has something to say about that.

gue_barium · April 2007

angelica wrote:

Yes I am.

I rarely get stirred up by anything replied to me here....

What was it that I said?

angelica · April 2007

gue_barium wrote:

What was it that I said?

When you give yourself permission to judge me personally, particularly in your preferred covert way, where you leave yourself room to backpedal on, it frustrates and angers me. One, because you are not operating fairly. Two, because no matter how many times I come back, fairly, you continue with your game. Well, this is the result.

soulsinging · April 2007

angelica wrote:

I would say unless they are unrealistic. Based on our stereotype, we may respond to our own impression in a way that backfires on us, by being inaccurate as per the situation. Stereotypes can literally be wrong if we are seeking to assess what we see and if we are inaccurate in our snap judgment. Such as with the stuck up sorority girl who may not be so at all.

but if most sorority girls are stuck up, then the stereotype is not invalid. it has been earned. the fact that sorority girl X is not does not mean the stereotype is not true, only that it does not apply to her. if one refuses to accept that she is not that way, it is no longer a stereotype about sorority girls, it is a prejudice against sorority girls. however, if one finds she does not fit the stereotype and accepts that, it means that what they have is a stereotype of sorority girls that is open to being proven wrong.

angelica wrote:

We use stereotypes to prejudge all the time, before we know the actual variables of a situation. Sometimes this works, other times it doesn't. I do it all the time--it's inevitable. The trick is to acknowledge and realize this so one can make amends and acknowledge, adapt and learn when it's not working. Unfortunately, often people cling to their stereotypes and continually rely on the stereotype without adapting based on input that conflicts. Which is where we get closed minded prejudiced people. I find this to be a common shadow aspect of stereotyping--the dark side.

that's what im saying... if you cling to stereotypes without adapting, it is not really a stereotype. it is a prejudice.

angelica · April 2007

soulsinging wrote:

but if most sorority girls are stuck up, then the stereotype is not invalid. it has been earned. the fact that sorority girl X is not does not mean the stereotype is not true, only that it does not apply to her. if one refuses to accept that she is not that way, it is no longer a stereotype about sorority girls, it is a prejudice against sorority girls. however, if one finds she does not fit the stereotype and accepts that, it means that what they have is a stereotype of sorority girls that is open to being proven wrong.

that's what im saying... if you cling to stereotypes without adapting, it is not really a stereotype. it is a prejudice.

"Stereotypes are ideas held about members of particular groups, based solely on membership in that group. They are often considered to be negative or prejudicial and may be used to justify certain discriminatory behaviors. According to Sander Gilman, stereotypes, by definition, are never accurate representations, but a projection of an individual's fears onto others, regardless of the reality of others."

"Stereotype production is based on:

Simplification
Exaggeration
Generalization
Presentation of cultural attributes as being 'natural'
Unshakable belief in stability of stereotype
Racism, sexism, and other forms of discrimination
Historical factors
Guilt by association
can be negative or positive
can be beneficial or harmful (a harmful stereotype can still be positive about a group)"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stereotype

Jeanie · April 2007

baraka wrote:

I don't disagree with anything you've said above. And yes, it is harder for women in other parts of the world that deal with poverty. All I'm saying is we play into this discrimination when we 'play the victim'. I would be careful not to make statements like, 'this is how it is and how it will always be'. If I sit and stew about how men get all the advantages (and I have stewed over this!) then I fall into the 'oppressed' category. I refuse to be a victim and continue the cycle.

Being a victim may is a safe place for many, because it is all they know. They get attention and sympathy. But remaining a victim just drains you of power and self respect and the love and power you seek cannot be obtained by playing the role of victim. Playing the victim is a protective mechanism and it becomes completely ingrained unfortunately. However, this thinking can imprison yourself to the very thing that you think protects you.

Is it as black and white as if I accept "this is how it is and how it always will be" then I am being a victim? I think there are plenty of women out there who get on with their daily lives and strive for greater things for themselves and the world around them but they don't kid themselves that things will ever really change. Looking at thousands of years of human development, yes, in some richer countries, women have it better than they've ever had it, but we still don't have true equality. And I don't think there's been any revolutionary thinking about this inequality in the last hundred years. In the last decade at least, I think we are taking backward steps. A return to the 1940's & 1950's if you will. It's no secret that conservatism and war have taken over the planet. And with those comes the need to control. And how are we controlling women? By keeping them busy with fripperies. And by revisiting and revising the issues that affect them.

Victim mentality is not a good thing to labor under and clearly I would support all people being able to live free of it.
But just because you have a victim mentality doesn't mean you aren't a victim or that you quite justifiably are unable to move forward at this time.
As far as I can see it is the duty of those who are no longer fettered by it to help show the way for those who are. And should some people not be able to move past it then we need to understand and accept that is how they are.
That moving forward may not include them, but that's ok.
At different stages in all our lives we are victims to a greater or lesser degree.
It is part of the human condition. If you can recover and move forward that's fantastic, if you are struggling I will help you, if you can't manage to move past it then I accept that is how you are.

Jeanie · April 2007

cutback wrote:

This thread has gone through so many incarnations I no longer know what it is about.

But I'll keep reading.

Well if you work it out can you enlighten me please?

Ahnimus · April 2007

Self-manifestation
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rVYNoNR6VUk

Angelica, you will like this

soulsinging · April 2007

angelica wrote:

"Stereotypes are ideas held about members of particular groups, based solely on membership in that group. They are often considered to be negative or prejudicial and may be used to justify certain discriminatory behaviors. According to Sander Gilman, stereotypes, by definition, are never accurate representations, but a projection of an individual's fears onto others, regardless of the reality of others."

"Stereotype production is based on:

Simplification
Exaggeration
Generalization
Presentation of cultural attributes as being 'natural'
Unshakable belief in stability of stereotype
Racism, sexism, and other forms of discrimination
Historical factors
Guilt by association
can be negative or positive
can be beneficial or harmful (a harmful stereotype can still be positive about a group)"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stereotype

then what is prejudice? i think that's a ridiculous and stupid definition of stereotype that, again, implies they are all evidence of people being bad/racist/sexist/whatever. besides, it's contradictory: often engative and based on fear rather, then later it can be positive or negative, harmful or beneficial. it's framing it... and it's symptomatic of bullshit pc-lovey-dovey 90s nonsense. "let's pretend everyone is a snowflake and unique and we cannot ever make observations about commonalities." NEVER accurate representations? that is a bold statement, and one that is patently false.

Jeanie · April 2007

gue_barium wrote:

The nonsensical thread meets its nonsensical end
via Jeanie, such a pretty name.

And i'm sure Catefrancis has something to say about that.

Ah! Finally something I understand!!

angelica · April 2007

Ahnimus wrote:

Self-manifestation
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rVYNoNR6VUk

Angelica, you will like this

Who are you? And what have you done with Ahnimus!

Hey, as soon as you are ready to descend on the Steve Pavlina message board as Animus and Anima, I'm there.

You can play the role of a "darkworker" and I'll be "lightworker".

lol

angelica · April 2007

Ahnimus wrote:

Self-manifestation
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rVYNoNR6VUk

Angelica, you will like this

You are right Ahnimus. That is definitely up my alley. I wanted to make one thing clear, from the video. With the law of attraction, one needn't ask "God". It's a neutral, natural law. The law works based on our words and even our thoughts. So, when we declare our intent to get something, we set the law into play. That's why people focus on disciplining their thoughts, because our thoughts are also intentions that direct us unconsciously in certain directions.

catefrances · April 2007

baraka wrote:

This mindset, though, makes you the victim. Personally, I'm not interested in being a victim. I think this is a bad cycle some tend to get caught up in and, therefor fulfill said stereotypes. For example, the profession I'm in is pretty much male dominated. However, I never focus on this fact and interestingly, I have been paid the same, if not more, than my male co-workers. That's because I did not expect anything less.

This doesn't negate the fact society is still a bit male dominated.

it doesn't make me a victim. and just like you i am not interested in being one. a history of past millenia shows we have been entrenched in a patriarchial society since the beginning. yes we do what we need to do. yes we manoeuvre so we position ourselves to gain full advantage. yes i take responsibilty for my own actions. sometimes to my detriment. i will never relinquish my personal power to a man. and i will never put myself in a position professionally, where it will result in a negative outcome for me.
the way angelica talks you'd think gender plays virtually no part within our society and if only women took responsibility for their actions it'd be all hunky dory. i don't blame men for the current status quo. i am fully aware it's been indoctrinated from the year dot. i know i'm in charge of my life. and so does everyone i come into contact with, or will come in contact with, male or female.

gue_barium wrote:

The nonsensical thread meets its nonsensical end
via Jeanie, such a pretty name.

And i'm sure Catefrancis has something to say about that.

something to say about what exactly?

angelica · April 2007

catefrances wrote:

the way angelica talks you'd think gender plays virtually no part within our society and if only women took responsibility for their actions it'd be all hunky dory.

It sounds like you're doing some selective listening.

catefrances · April 2007

angelica wrote:

It sounds like you're doing some selective listening.

perhaps. and i take responsibility for that .

angelica · April 2007

catefrances wrote:

perhaps. and i take responsibility for that .

angelica · April 2007

soulsinging wrote:

then what is prejudice? i think that's a ridiculous and stupid definition of stereotype that, again, implies they are all evidence of people being bad/racist/sexist/whatever. besides, it's contradictory: often engative and based on fear rather, then later it can be positive or negative, harmful or beneficial. it's framing it... and it's symptomatic of bullshit pc-lovey-dovey 90s nonsense. "let's pretend everyone is a snowflake and unique and we cannot ever make observations about commonalities." NEVER accurate representations? that is a bold statement, and one that is patently false.

Both stereotyping and prejudice have the act of prejudging in common. A stereotype is a typing we believe to be true over a long period, being 'fixed'. As you say about the stuck up sorority girl....you give yourself permission to hold that to be true in of itself.

From Merriam-Webster: stereotype: something conforming to a fixed or general pattern; especially : a standardized mental picture that is held in common by members of a group and that represents an oversimplified opinion, prejudiced attitude, or uncritical judgment

A "positive" stereotype can be innacurate, fixed and prejudicial at the same time: "Stereotypes can be either positive ("black men are good at basketball") or negative ("women are bad drivers"). But most stereotypes tend to make us feel superior in some way to the person or group being stereotyped. Stereotypes ignore the uniqueness of individuals by painting all members of a group with the same brush."
http://www.media-awareness.ca/english/special_initiatives/toolkit/stereotypes/what_are_stereotypes.cfm

edit: oh, and regarding "never accurate"...that is true if looked at in terms of the group one is typing, for example, all sorority girls are not "stuck-up" across the board. All black men are not good at basketball.

becos the women around here dont hate me enough already

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