Why Religion Must Remain A Part Of The World...

AllNiteThing · October 2006

cornnifer wrote:

Pardom me if it seems as though i'm hammering this. i'm really just looking for clarification. You said earlier that you did not accept belief. You either know, or do not know. If your stance on God is that you have know way of absolutely knowing whether or not he exists and you behave as though he does not, is that not based on a BELIEF that he does not? So, your basing your reality, thoughts and behavior on a belief, which, according to your own criteria, is completely unacceptable. Doesn't that present somewhat of a conundrum for you?

That's like saying I don't believe there is a planet made of cheese 30 trillion light years away. It certainly COULD exist, but why believe it to be? All evidence on what we know does not suggest its existence, so why bother believe in it. She is saying the same thing. If there is absolutely no evidence to the existence of god, and only the presence of it in other peoples' minds, what reason is there for her to also hold this belief? As she stated, she certainly could be wrong, but her reality dictates otherwise. I could certainly be wrong and there is a planet made of cheese, but my knowledge dictates otherwise.

The absence of belief in something we view as absurd does not equate into the faith in an opposite paradigm. If you turn everything into faith and belief, then you reject all of reality.

macgyver06 · October 2006

you don't need religion to be spiritual.. and you CERTAINTLY dont need to be spiritual to be religious.

there is no link between the two..sorry... beyond belief

cornnifer · October 2006

hippiemom wrote:

Behaving as though he does not exist is based on the absolute knowledge that I currently have no 100% accurate way to determine whether he exists or not. Since I see no evidence of his existence, it would be silly of me to behave as though he exists. I can't prove with 100% certainty that Santa Claus doesn't exist either, but that doesn't mean I'm going to leave cookies out for him.

I guess now we're just quibbling over the use of the word "belief." I don't see any more evidence for god than I do for unicorns or the Loch Ness monster. There are people who claim to have encountered all three, but I don't find that to be persuasive without anything to back it up.

So sure, if you want to say that I don't "believe" in God in the same way that I don't believe in Santa, that's fine. We could also say that I "believe" that Vermont exists, since I've never actually seen Vermont myself. I think there's overwhelming evidence of Vermont's existance though, so I don't put that in the realm of belief.

I know I'm not articulating any of this very well, so I apologize for that. My brain seems to be operating in super slo-mo today. I may try again after some food and some more coffee

No, whether or not Vermont exists cannot be categorized as belief. It doesn't matter if you've seen it yourself or not. Others have. People live there. It is fact. Accepted worldwide as such.
Belief is debatable. Fact is not.
Many believe God exists. Others do not. SOme see no evidence. Others see mounds of it. Show me some solid, undebatable evidence God does not exist. Proving, or even arguing God's existence is not my purpose here. You seem to know, in your heart, that God does not exist. I seem to know in my heart that he does. Obviously neither one of us really KNOW anything in regards to God. But for our own reasons we both BELIEVE one way or the other. Thats fine i have no problem with belief when it is supportable. You're certainly entitled to yours. My only point is that your belief is that God does not exist is nothing more than just that. A BELIEF. You claimed not to accept those. Maybe, what you should have said, for the sake of accuracy, is "I don't accept the beliefs of others, just my own".

Cosmo · October 2006

ItsEvolutionBaby74 wrote:

At least for me it must because i have Bi-Polar disorder and i need the spiritual help to keep me where I am, and without an afterlife...whats the point? And how do you know there is no afterlife?? Are you dead?? If so I wont be hearing your response to this thread.

...
The point is... you only know for sure that this life is real... that there is a possibility that this may be your only shot at it because we don't know what happens after we die... no one knows. If you squander away your life because you expect something better in a level of existance you HOPE exists... well, then I think you are missing the point entirely.
And I do not believe that you need religion to have hope and faith. I don't believe that God needs you to possess religion in order for Him to love you. God existed long before Earth was formed and will exist long after Earth and Man and Man's religions are gone.
But, if you find comfort in religion and feels that it is what provides your faith and hope... then, more power to you. But, I believe God just wants us to be happy and to be good to each other... and that's not 'TRY' to be good... you don't 'TRY to be good'.... we either ARE good or we are not... it's a pass or fail grade. I don't believe He is the great dictator that religions paint Him to be. I don't 'fear' God... He loves me, why should I fear Him?

hippiemom · October 2006

cornnifer wrote:

No, whether or not Vermont exists cannot be categorized as belief. It doesn't matter if you've seen it yourself or not. Others have. People live there. It is fact. Accepted worldwide as such.
Belief is debatable. Fact is not.
Many believe God exists. Others do not. SOme see no evidence. Others see mounds of it. Show me some solid, undebatable evidence God does not exist. Proving, or even arguing God's existence is not my purpose here. You seem to know, in your heart, that God does not exist. I seem to know in my heart that he does. Obviously neither one of us really KNOW anything in regards to God. But for our own reasons we both BELIEVE one way or the other. Thats fine i have no problem with belief when it is supportable. You're certainly entitled to yours. My only point is that your belief is that God does not exist is nothing more than just that. A BELIEF. You claimed not to accept those. Maybe, what you should have said, for the sake of accuracy, is "I don't accept the beliefs of others, just my own".

But I haven't said that god does or doesn't exist. I'm saying that I behave as if he doesn't, since I have no basis to do otherwise. I can't prove that he doesn't exist any more than I can prove that there aren't fairies living in my garden, but I still need to make decisions regarding how I spend my time (whether or not to pray, go to church, leave food out for the fairies, etc.), and I base those decisions on the evidence available to me today. All that I can say I know for certain is that no god has made his presence known to me.

bryanfury · October 2006

ItsEvolutionBaby74 wrote:

At least for me it must because i have Bi-Polar disorder and i need the spiritual help to keep me where I am, and without an afterlife...whats the point? And how do you know there is no afterlife?? Are you dead?? If so I wont be hearing your response to this thread.

you underestimate the power of the human mind. you don't need a crutch.

AllNiteThing · October 2006

cornnifer wrote:

No, whether or not Vermont exists cannot be categorized as belief. It doesn't matter if you've seen it yourself or not. Others have. People live there. It is fact. Accepted worldwide as such.
Belief is debatable. Fact is not.
Many believe God exists. Others do not. SOme see no evidence. Others see mounds of it. Show me some solid, undebatable evidence God does not exist. Proving, or even arguing God's existence is not my purpose here. You seem to know, in your heart, that God does not exist. I seem to know in my heart that he does. Obviously neither one of us really KNOW anything in regards to God. But for our own reasons we both BELIEVE one way or the other. Thats fine i have no problem with belief when it is supportable. You're certainly entitled to yours. My only point is that your belief is that God does not exist is nothing more than just that. A BELIEF. You claimed not to accept those. Maybe, what you should have said, for the sake of accuracy, is "I don't accept the beliefs of others, just my own".

The fact that Vermont exists is indisputable, universally accepted and provable. The existence of god is NOT universally accepted and nowhere has it been proven even to the smallest degree. To say that neither of us really KNOW that god exists is true, but no more ridiculous than saying neither of us really KNOW whether or not a planet 3 trillion light years away is made of cheese. Again, I say that the opposite of the belief in something ridiculous is not necessarily the BELIEF in the absence of such. There is no reason to believe otherwise. It is up to YOU to prove the existence of god (cheese planet), rather than our mission to prove the absence of god.

Maybe you are trying to get into a war of semantics, I'm not sure, but it seems fairly obvious the difference between observable/known reality and what is mythology/belief.

Cosmo · October 2006

Do people who believe in God act good because they believe He is always watching them and will ultimately judge them?
Is that why they think that atheists are bad or evil, because if there is no God watching, they can behave badly?
Does that mean that if their faith in God were to leave them, they would stop acting good?

catefrances · October 2006

Cosmo wrote:

Do people who believe in God act good because they believe He is always watching them and will ultimately judge them?
Is that why they think that atheists are bad or evil, because if there is no God watching, they can behave badly?
Does that mean that if their faith in God were to leave them, they would stop acting good?

interestingly enough...or not, it is because I am watching that i behave the way i do. as i have stated before, I am my own God (for want of a better word). what matters to me is how I behave. and how i live with that. if i am at peace within my own self, then that is all that concerns me.

Cosmo · October 2006

catefrances wrote:

interestingly enough...or not, it is because I am watching that i behave the way i do. as i have stated before, I am my own God (for want of a better word). what matters to me is how I behave. and how i live with that. if i am at peace within my own self, then that is all that concerns me.

...
Which is what I believe most people do. I believe people are either good or not.
If people behave themselves because they belive God is watching over them and they expect to be rewarded with some sort of blissful after life for their efforts... is that really who they are or is it an effort for them to be a good person? I mean... shouldn't we just be good for the sake of being good? And NOT for the promises made by specific religious doctrine?

catefrances · October 2006

Cosmo wrote:

...
Which is what I believe most people do. I believe people are either good or not.
If people behave themselves because they belive God is watching over them and they expect to be rewarded with some sort of blissful after life for their efforts... is that really who they are or is it an effort for them to be a good person? I mean... shouldn't we just be good for the sake of being good? And NOT for the promises made by specific religious doctrine?

not doing bad does not equate to doing good.

people can say they've been good in their life, but what is it they have actually done. have they behaved only in the way they should and then expect the reward. or have they actively done good.

Cosmo · October 2006

catefrances wrote:

not doing bad does not equate to doing good.

people can say they've been good in their life, but what is it they have actually done. have they behaved only in the way they should and then expect the reward. or have they actively done good.

...
If a guy wants to mind his own business... works for a wage... raises a family... what's wrong with that? He's a descent guy... do you no harm... nice to people... kind to animals... would God reject this guy? Why?
The guy doesn't expect any reward... would he be punished for this?

catefrances · October 2006

Cosmo wrote:

...
If a guy wants to mind his own business... works for a wage... raises a family... what's wrong with that? He's a descent guy... do you no harm... nice to people... kind to animals... would God reject this guy? Why?
The guy doesn't expect any reward... would he be punished for this?

there. you said it yourself.

how is he being punished for not getting something he didn't expect?

Cosmo · October 2006

catefrances wrote:

there. you said it yourself.

how is he being punished for not getting something he didn't expect?

...
If the judgemental God exists... isn't the dude going to Hell?
What does God want from us? What does He expect from us?
The guy that does not do bad... isn't a bad guy. Does he have to go out and do good deeds to win God's favor? Isn't just being a descent human being good enough for God?
I think God loves him and doesn't tie Man's worship of God to the ones He has created. I believe that's a trait that Man has tied to God. God's love in unconditional, according to me. I do not believe that God only loves the ones who worship Him... or the ones who believe in Him and will reserve His judgement for those who are truely evil and who commit evil acts.

kenny olav · October 2006

hippiemom wrote:

Not always true. I am comforted by the thought that this is it. I don't want to live forever.

But do you only want to live 75-100 years? I'd like to have at least a few more lifetimes, especially on other planets. I'd like to fly around the universe. Doesn't seem fair to be limited to a small span of time on this planet.

jeffbr · October 2006

Kenny Olav wrote:

But do you only want to live 75-100 years? I'd like to have at least a few more lifetimes, especially on other planets. I'd like to fly around the universe. Doesn't seem fair to be limited to a small span of time on this planet.

I was given a book by the Hari Krishnas in 1980 called "Easy Journey to Other Planets" (back when they could hand out books in airports). It was an interesting read. You may want to give Krishas a look.

I just googled the book and it is available for download as a pdf on a bunch of sites.

I'm at peace with 70 - 75 years here on Earth and then lights out, so I'm not looking for anything else at this point.

catefrances · October 2006

Kenny Olav wrote:

But do you only want to live 75-100 years? I'd like to have at least a few more lifetimes, especially on other planets. I'd like to fly around the universe. Doesn't seem fair to be limited to a small span of time on this planet.

fair to who?

rigneyclan · October 2006

I am an atheist.

The purpose of human beings are just like any other animal: to live long enough to reproduce and have offspring to keep the species alive.

I don't believe in the afterlife. Knowing that I have one life to live and then I just die is perfectly fine with me.

Ahnimus · October 2006

HAHAHAHA Why do I watch this shit?
http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=3954156199145885147&q=building+on+ground+zero

kenny olav · October 2006

catefrances wrote:

fair to who?

fair to anyone who watched Star Wars as a kid.

Why Religion Must Remain A Part Of The World...

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