Do you want the USA to win the fight in Iraq? Yes or No.

2

Comments

  • know1
    know1 Posts: 6,801
    Abuskedti wrote:
    The factions do want to minimize violence. They want the occupying forces out!


    You really think that? They seem to be targeting and killing many, many, many more Iraqis than U.S. troops.
    The only people we should try to get even with...
    ...are those who've helped us.

    Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
  • Abuskedti
    Abuskedti Posts: 1,917
    know1 wrote:
    You really think that? They seem to be targeting and killing many, many, many more Iraqis than U.S. troops.

    Yes I do.. You have been here long enough to know I think that.

    How can you conclude that human beings want violence. They are human beings. They are targeting what they perceive as an enemy. They all have very valid reasons to fight. Our presence is war. the country is at war. Iraqis have grouped with people they trust. Some feel their best choice is to side with the US and they are targeted.

    If Iraqis side with the US, they take the responsibility for all the deaths the United States is responsible for.

    They are people more than capable of taking care of themselves. We turned their country to war - and if we leave the war will linger until issues are resolved. the fact that we continue simply extends the war with no issues being resolved. That is because it is Iraq - not Utah.
  • jlew24asu
    jlew24asu Posts: 10,118
    Abuskedti wrote:
    The factions do want to minimize violence. They want the occupying forces out!


    sure they want us out. but violence would get much worse if we left today. you seem to think they will put down their arms and start cheering. sunnis and shiites hugging in the streets or some shit
  • callen
    callen Posts: 6,388
    Songburst wrote:
    Canadians and Americans do live similarily. However, Canadians and Americans do not think similarily. There is a big difference.

    Don't take this as an "I hate the states" thing either. I love visiting the US. I always have fun and I usually meet great people. Your foreign policy stinks and it always has.

    please don't group me in with all Americans.....there are many of us that detest our foreign policy even more than "Canadians". Actually more since these dipshits represent us. Also please note....more and more Americans are able to see through this shit as evidenced through last election. And this latest crap about blaming Maliki..is just insane. WTF

    And I love going to Canada....great people...and best place to see a PJ show..for sure..and hang out with like minded people. Course Canadians always look at me funny...till I tell them I didn't vote for Bush boy..then its on.

    Peace
    10-18-2000 Houston, 04-06-2003 Houston, 6-25-2003 Toronto, 10-8-2004 Kissimmee, 9-4-2005 Calgary, 12-3-05 Sao Paulo, 7-2-2006 Denver, 7-22-06 Gorge, 7-23-2006 Gorge, 9-13-2006 Bern, 6-22-2008 DC, 6-24-2008 MSG, 6-25-2008 MSG
  • Abuskedti
    Abuskedti Posts: 1,917
    jlew24asu wrote:
    sure they want us out. but violence would get much worse if we left today. you seem to think they will put down their arms and start cheering. sunnis and shiites hugging in the streets or some shit

    No, I think they will rebuild Iraq. War will continue - but Iraqi progress will be made. The war will end. With us there there is death with no progress.

    A civil war will be a war that moves forward. Right now they are spinning backwards.
  • Jammin909
    Jammin909 Posts: 888
    Abuskedti wrote:
    No, I think they will rebuild Iraq. War will continue - but Iraqi progress will be made. The war will end. With us there there is death with no progress.

    A civil war will be a war that moves forward. Right now they are spinning backwards.

    Top military commanders have said that a full blown civil war usually takes 10% of a population.

    Appx 2.6 million deaths by leaving and letting them duke it out...
    The less you know, the more you believe.
  • jlew24asu
    jlew24asu Posts: 10,118
    Abuskedti wrote:
    No, I think they will rebuild Iraq. War will continue - but Iraqi progress will be made. The war will end. With us there there is death with no progress.

    A civil war will be a war that moves forward. Right now they are spinning backwards.


    this makes no sense. they will rebuild Iraq? war will continue.....iraqi progress. war will end. huh?

    a civil war will be a war that moves forward. huh?

    right now sunnis kill shittes. shiites kill sunnis. seems they are spinning round and round not backwards. how do they spin forward? one one group starts killing more then the other?
  • soulsinging
    soulsinging Posts: 13,202
    enharmonic wrote:
    No single nation can win a war against a concept. Terrorism is a concept...a behavior. War is not Pavlovian conditioning. It will not bring terrorists in line.

    Like it or not, the bell curve applies to human beings as well. There are those on the right side of the bell curve, whom for sake of argument we will call the most desirable human beings...people who seem to be slightly ahead of the evolutionary curve. At the top of the bell, you have joe and jane average...people who comprise probably 80% of the world's total population. On the left side of the curve, you have God's mulligans...human beings that did not come out quite right. That's where your terrorists come from.

    Look at it another way...if part of a plant gets a disease, do you spare that part of the plant knowing that the disease will spread and ruin what is left of an otherwise good plant, or do you cut the diseased part off so that the rest of the plant can survive?

    THAT is what we have to do to anyone who practices terrorism. There's no justice that will resolve the matter faster than terminating the root cause. You have to kill them...I don't care if it's 1000, 10,000, or 250,000...a drop in the bucket in the grand scheme of things.

    The vast majority of the world's population are not terrorists. If you have a tumor, and the doctors can cut it out so you will live, you get the tumor cut out. You don't attempt to reason with it, bring it to justice, or sanction it. you don't tell your healthy cells that they have to step up and take control of the tumor. You cut that fucker out, and go through chemo to make sure you've got it all.

    That is what you need to do to terrorists. If they want to act in inhuman ways, you must dehumanize them in your mind, and extract them from the bell curve.

    the nature of the bell curve, however, is it is always that way and no matter how fast you cut them out, others will step in to fill out the curve. you're mixing your analogies.
  • soulsinging
    soulsinging Posts: 13,202
    Jammin909 wrote:
    Harper is from the same mold Bush is. Please enlighten your ignorant neighbors, how does the world work Mr. (my shit don't sthink) Thunder Bay???



    No- but no one isnt born a murderer or child molester either. Shit happens and you deal with it accordingly.

    A majority of Canadians live the exact same way a majority of Americas live.



    Yeah, the Middle East was a beacon of freedom, peace, and tranquility before the Americans starting waging their imperialistic wars...

    did you ever hear about any problems over there until world war 2? nope. cos they didnt give a fuck about us and we didnt give a fuck about them. until we started meddling in their affairs to 1) set up israel, 2) secure oil supplies, and 3) combat that evil red menace. we CREATED terrorists in order to make them fight russia for us. now they've turned on us. the question is, given how our tactics in combatting communism backfired on us... even if we "win" the war on terror, how many people will we piss off en route that will come back to bite us in 40 years?
  • soulsinging
    soulsinging Posts: 13,202
    Jammin909 wrote:
    Top military commanders have said that a full blown civil war usually takes 10% of a population.

    Appx 2.6 million deaths by leaving and letting them duke it out...

    better them than us.
  • Abuskedti
    Abuskedti Posts: 1,917
    jlew24asu wrote:
    this makes no sense. they will rebuild Iraq? war will continue.....iraqi progress. war will end. huh?

    a civil war will be a war that moves forward. huh?

    right now sunnis kill shittes. shiites kill sunnis. seems they are spinning round and round not backwards. how do they spin forward? one one group starts killing more then the other?

    A civil war will establish who is in charge. Someone will win, and will run the country. As it is now, we are imposing a government that Iraq doesn't want, and we prevent anyone from winning. Basically now they are fighting against us while also attempting to possition for when we leave. But these possitions can not be taken until we do leave.
  • know1
    know1 Posts: 6,801
    soulsinging wrote:
    better them than us.

    Why? If it's not your life personally, then a life is a life. It's pathetic to value the life of an American (or any nationality) over the life of someone in a different country SIMPLY because they do not have the same citizenship as you.
    The only people we should try to get even with...
    ...are those who've helped us.

    Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
  • know1
    know1 Posts: 6,801
    Abuskedti wrote:
    Yes I do.. You have been here long enough to know I think that.

    How can you conclude that human beings want violence. They are human beings. They are targeting what they perceive as an enemy. They all have very valid reasons to fight. Our presence is war. the country is at war. Iraqis have grouped with people they trust. Some feel their best choice is to side with the US and they are targeted.

    If Iraqis side with the US, they take the responsibility for all the deaths the United States is responsible for.

    They are people more than capable of taking care of themselves. We turned their country to war - and if we leave the war will linger until issues are resolved. the fact that we continue simply extends the war with no issues being resolved. That is because it is Iraq - not Utah.

    Do you think the volume of killing will increase or decrease if the U.S. just pulls out?
    The only people we should try to get even with...
    ...are those who've helped us.

    Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
  • Abuskedti
    Abuskedti Posts: 1,917
    know1 wrote:
    Do you think the volume of killing will increase or decrease if the U.S. just pulls out?

    Over the course of the following year... I believe it will be less.
  • JaneNY
    JaneNY Posts: 4,438
    UncleTeddy (thread starter): Please define what 'winning' in this situation would mean to you.
    R.i.p. Rigoberto Alpizar.
    R.i.p. My Dad - May 28, 2007
    R.i.p. Black Tail (cat) - Sept. 20, 2008
  • know1
    know1 Posts: 6,801
    Abuskedti wrote:
    Over the course of the following year... I believe it will be less.

    I disagree with you, but am at least relieved that you think that way (however misguided it may be). If you said you thought the killing would be more, than it would be despicable to want to withdraw the troops.
    The only people we should try to get even with...
    ...are those who've helped us.

    Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
  • jlew24asu
    jlew24asu Posts: 10,118
    JaneNY wrote:
    UncleTeddy (thread starter): Please define what 'winning' in this situation would mean to you.


    if you dont mind...


    I think winning means defeating any insugency (forgein fighters fighting the US and iraqi government. el queda fighters loyal to osama bin laden and his cause). establishing a democratically elected government that represents all factions of the country with a trained military and police force.

    the second part largely involves the Iraqis themselves calling for peace. this might be the impossible part. Iran is such a big influence and the hatred goes back to the very long war they fought.

    I'm not an expert on the sunni shiite history or what it takes to actually have them live in peace.

    I just hope they can. long shot? yes. possible? I hope so.
  • soulsinging
    soulsinging Posts: 13,202
    know1 wrote:
    Why? If it's not your life personally, then a life is a life. It's pathetic to value the life of an American (or any nationality) over the life of someone in a different country SIMPLY because they do not have the same citizenship as you.

    becos what they want to do with their country is none of my business. i think if we left, there would be less killing on the whole and things would stabilize. but regardless, there is going to be killing over there no matter what we do. id just as soon not have my money contributing to it and my friends having to become part of it. if they feel like chopping each other up, i see no reason why i should pay to have my friends get chopped up too. becos after 3 years, it's pretty clear that the US military being over there hasnt done a damn thing to lessen the violence over there.
  • inmytree
    inmytree Posts: 4,741
    Uncle Teddy wrote:
    Should the American, um, "empire" accept defeat and cut and run from Iraq?
    Why does the Democrat(ic?) party (and the American LEFT) have a vested interest in America's defeat and humiliation?

    a durrrr du dumm de dum....
  • know1
    know1 Posts: 6,801
    soulsinging wrote:
    becos what they want to do with their country is none of my business. i think if we left, there would be less killing on the whole and things would stabilize. but regardless, there is going to be killing over there no matter what we do. id just as soon not have my money contributing to it and my friends having to become part of it. if they feel like chopping each other up, i see no reason why i should pay to have my friends get chopped up too. becos after 3 years, it's pretty clear that the US military being over there hasnt done a damn thing to lessen the violence over there.

    So if it's not your friend being murdered, do you have a problem with the government prosecuting murderers in this country? It's your money, after all, and you didn't know the person being murdered, so your tax dollars shouldn't go toward it. I mean, come on, there are going to be murders anyway...

    You could apply this analogy to stealing, tax evasion or any crime.
    The only people we should try to get even with...
    ...are those who've helped us.

    Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.

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