this makes no sense. they will rebuild Iraq? war will continue.....iraqi progress. war will end. huh?
a civil war will be a war that moves forward. huh?
right now sunnis kill shittes. shiites kill sunnis. seems they are spinning round and round not backwards. how do they spin forward? one one group starts killing more then the other?
A civil war will establish who is in charge. Someone will win, and will run the country. As it is now, we are imposing a government that Iraq doesn't want, and we prevent anyone from winning. Basically now they are fighting against us while also attempting to possition for when we leave. But these possitions can not be taken until we do leave.
Why? If it's not your life personally, then a life is a life. It's pathetic to value the life of an American (or any nationality) over the life of someone in a different country SIMPLY because they do not have the same citizenship as you.
The only people we should try to get even with...
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
Yes I do.. You have been here long enough to know I think that.
How can you conclude that human beings want violence. They are human beings. They are targeting what they perceive as an enemy. They all have very valid reasons to fight. Our presence is war. the country is at war. Iraqis have grouped with people they trust. Some feel their best choice is to side with the US and they are targeted.
If Iraqis side with the US, they take the responsibility for all the deaths the United States is responsible for.
They are people more than capable of taking care of themselves. We turned their country to war - and if we leave the war will linger until issues are resolved. the fact that we continue simply extends the war with no issues being resolved. That is because it is Iraq - not Utah.
Do you think the volume of killing will increase or decrease if the U.S. just pulls out?
The only people we should try to get even with...
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
Over the course of the following year... I believe it will be less.
I disagree with you, but am at least relieved that you think that way (however misguided it may be). If you said you thought the killing would be more, than it would be despicable to want to withdraw the troops.
The only people we should try to get even with...
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
UncleTeddy (thread starter): Please define what 'winning' in this situation would mean to you.
if you dont mind...
I think winning means defeating any insugency (forgein fighters fighting the US and iraqi government. el queda fighters loyal to osama bin laden and his cause). establishing a democratically elected government that represents all factions of the country with a trained military and police force.
the second part largely involves the Iraqis themselves calling for peace. this might be the impossible part. Iran is such a big influence and the hatred goes back to the very long war they fought.
I'm not an expert on the sunni shiite history or what it takes to actually have them live in peace.
I just hope they can. long shot? yes. possible? I hope so.
Why? If it's not your life personally, then a life is a life. It's pathetic to value the life of an American (or any nationality) over the life of someone in a different country SIMPLY because they do not have the same citizenship as you.
becos what they want to do with their country is none of my business. i think if we left, there would be less killing on the whole and things would stabilize. but regardless, there is going to be killing over there no matter what we do. id just as soon not have my money contributing to it and my friends having to become part of it. if they feel like chopping each other up, i see no reason why i should pay to have my friends get chopped up too. becos after 3 years, it's pretty clear that the US military being over there hasnt done a damn thing to lessen the violence over there.
Should the American, um, "empire" accept defeat and cut and run from Iraq?
Why does the Democrat(ic?) party (and the American LEFT) have a vested interest in America's defeat and humiliation?
becos what they want to do with their country is none of my business. i think if we left, there would be less killing on the whole and things would stabilize. but regardless, there is going to be killing over there no matter what we do. id just as soon not have my money contributing to it and my friends having to become part of it. if they feel like chopping each other up, i see no reason why i should pay to have my friends get chopped up too. becos after 3 years, it's pretty clear that the US military being over there hasnt done a damn thing to lessen the violence over there.
So if it's not your friend being murdered, do you have a problem with the government prosecuting murderers in this country? It's your money, after all, and you didn't know the person being murdered, so your tax dollars shouldn't go toward it. I mean, come on, there are going to be murders anyway...
You could apply this analogy to stealing, tax evasion or any crime.
The only people we should try to get even with...
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
So if it's not your friend being murdered, do you have a problem with the government prosecuting murderers in this country? It's your money, after all, and you didn't know the person being murdered, so your tax dollars shouldn't go toward it. I mean, come on, there are going to be murders anyway...
You could apply this analogy to stealing, tax evasion or any crime.
no, this analogy doesn't apply over here. becos i pay taxes so that my government can protect me. i dont pay taxes to protect people in another country that has its own government that could do that if it wanted. the job of the US government is to protect its citizens' interests. its job is not to divert resources that could be used to fix problems affecting its citizens' interests into a wasteful and ineffective effort to protect the interests of a people who dont want the protection. iraq was and is iraq's problem, not the US's problem. we should not be there and never should have been. i want my government worrying about my problems and the problems of my fellow americans, not the problems of countries that never asked for our help.
I believe if the coalition left the killing would decrease....however definetly would not cease.....but I truely believe for the country to reach stability the Iraqis themselves need to do it....and that means without an occupying force....it was great that the USA took down a scum-bag like Saddam...I still never liked the plan or will ever support this futile effort but the removal of Saddam was good for the people...I wish the USA would have left....it may sound absurd but the USA may have been looked at as "heroes" to say....let the people of Iraq build it the way they want..
The USA was a great example of a country that formed by kicking out foreign rulers (British) and they themselves needed to battle each other (civil war) to be the country America is today...it seems to me early Americans wanted to run their country under their rules...is it absurd to believe that Iraqi's do not also want to run the country their way....I do not think so...what is so inconceivable about Iraqis raising their country up from the ashes...I am postive a lot of people think them as inferior people uncapable of bringing forth responsible government....therefore they need help (i.e. propped up government branded made in America)...these people are different than us in the west and therefore need to devlelop their form of government....they got help in removing a ruthless dictator they should now be allowed to build their country back....it may not be western in thought (it will never be, that is what is great about cultural diversity in the world, heaven forbid something be different than what we take as normal).
It is just an absolute shame that this situation has been made into a gigantic cluster fuck because of irresponsible planning and motives...this could have been a shining moment for America....help a Middle Eastern country remove a tyrannt in a area of high anti-Western idealogy....then leave...unfortunaly now we see the name of America dragged and kicked through the mud...which is too bad that some mindless fools have disgraced the name of their country....I personally would have loved to see America have a shining moment in Iraq...too bad that time has come and gone.....some people see it as absurd to have left that earlier...however I view staying just as absurd...and now (hindsight and all) we can see what has proven to be more futile....lets just hope that those over there (Iraqis and soldiers alike) can get back to normailty somehow.....and I for one hope that America can remove the tarnish from its name because it just does not deserve it because of the incompetance of a few high powered officials.....
no, this analogy doesn't apply over here. becos i pay taxes so that my government can protect me. i dont pay taxes to protect people in another country that has its own government that could do that if it wanted. the job of the US government is to protect its citizens' interests. its job is not to divert resources that could be used to fix problems affecting its citizens' interests into a wasteful and ineffective effort to protect the interests of a people who dont want the protection. iraq was and is iraq's problem, not the US's problem. we should not be there and never should have been. i want my government worrying about my problems and the problems of my fellow americans, not the problems of countries that never asked for our help.
So you value human lives at different levels depending upon which nationality they are? That's sad.
The only people we should try to get even with...
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
No single nation can win a war against a concept. Terrorism is a concept...a behavior. War is not Pavlovian conditioning. It will not bring terrorists in line.
Like it or not, the bell curve applies to human beings as well. There are those on the right side of the bell curve, whom for sake of argument we will call the most desirable human beings...people who seem to be slightly ahead of the evolutionary curve. At the top of the bell, you have joe and jane average...people who comprise probably 80% of the world's total population. On the left side of the curve, you have God's mulligans...human beings that did not come out quite right. That's where your terrorists come from.
Look at it another way...if part of a plant gets a disease, do you spare that part of the plant knowing that the disease will spread and ruin what is left of an otherwise good plant, or do you cut the diseased part off so that the rest of the plant can survive?
THAT is what we have to do to anyone who practices terrorism. There's no justice that will resolve the matter faster than terminating the root cause. You have to kill them...I don't care if it's 1000, 10,000, or 250,000...a drop in the bucket in the grand scheme of things.
The vast majority of the world's population are not terrorists. If you have a tumor, and the doctors can cut it out so you will live, you get the tumor cut out. You don't attempt to reason with it, bring it to justice, or sanction it. you don't tell your healthy cells that they have to step up and take control of the tumor. You cut that fucker out, and go through chemo to make sure you've got it all.
That is what you need to do to terrorists. If they want to act in inhuman ways, you must dehumanize them in your mind, and extract them from the bell curve.
Yikes. Exchange terrorists for jews, and see what happens with this statement. Racial purity theories operated from exactly those kinds of reasonings and premises. And seeming terrorists are a bit hard to find and identify mostly, well, we will have to sacrifice some healthy flesh to get at the tumorous parts right? Frankly my soul shudders at this.
(edit) As for anyone winning anything, I see that largely as irrelevant. This isn't a competition or a game of risk or whatever. This is people's lives we're talking about and dealing with. The US in Iraq is in a Catch 22 condition now anyway. Damned either way.
Peace
Dan
"YOU [humans] NEED TO BELIEVE IN THINGS THAT AREN'T TRUE. HOW ELSE CAN THEY BECOME?" - Death
"Every judgment teeters on the brink of error. To claim absolute knowledge is to become monstrous. Knowledge is an unending adventure at the edge of uncertainty." - Frank Herbert, Dune, 1965
We need to open up the playbook and be more creative, only then will we defeat the opponent and impress the voters enough to secure a berth in the war championship match.
No single nation can win a war against a concept. Terrorism is a concept...a behavior. War is not Pavlovian conditioning. It will not bring terrorists in line.
Like it or not, the bell curve applies to human beings as well. There are those on the right side of the bell curve, whom for sake of argument we will call the most desirable human beings...people who seem to be slightly ahead of the evolutionary curve. At the top of the bell, you have joe and jane average...people who comprise probably 80% of the world's total population. On the left side of the curve, you have God's mulligans...human beings that did not come out quite right. That's where your terrorists come from.
Look at it another way...if part of a plant gets a disease, do you spare that part of the plant knowing that the disease will spread and ruin what is left of an otherwise good plant, or do you cut the diseased part off so that the rest of the plant can survive?
THAT is what we have to do to anyone who practices terrorism. There's no justice that will resolve the matter faster than terminating the root cause. You have to kill them...I don't care if it's 1000, 10,000, or 250,000...a drop in the bucket in the grand scheme of things.
The vast majority of the world's population are not terrorists. If you have a tumor, and the doctors can cut it out so you will live, you get the tumor cut out. You don't attempt to reason with it, bring it to justice, or sanction it. you don't tell your healthy cells that they have to step up and take control of the tumor. You cut that fucker out, and go through chemo to make sure you've got it all.
That is what you need to do to terrorists. If they want to act in inhuman ways, you must dehumanize them in your mind, and extract them from the bell curve.
seems like the second part of your post deturred dramatically from the first.. like pole opposite arguments
You can't defeat terrorism by killing it, it's always going to be there. Attack the cause. It's like saying if we kill all the poor than that will get rid of the poverty problem.
I think we need to exit ASAP.. we've fucked it up and it's without a doubt going down near or on the top of our country's military fuck ups list. It's kind of tricky to weigh leaving and destabilizing a region and staying in a rapidly destabilizing region, but I opt for the former.
Yikes. Exchange terrorists for jews, and see what happens with this statement. Racial purity theories operated from exactly those kinds of reasonings and premises. And seeming terrorists are a bit hard to find and identify mostly, well, we will have to sacrifice some healthy flesh to get at the tumorous parts right? Frankly my soul shudders at this.
(edit) As for anyone winning anything, I see that largely as irrelevant. This isn't a competition or a game of risk or whatever. This is people's lives we're talking about and dealing with. The US in Iraq is in a Catch 22 condition now anyway. Damned either way.
Peace
Dan
Nowhere in my post did I suggest genocide or racial purity.
And again, if people know who the terrorists are, and don't give them up for whatever reason...they are hardly innocent.
the nature of the bell curve, however, is it is always that way and no matter how fast you cut them out, others will step in to fill out the curve. you're mixing your analogies.
Not so. The composition of the bell curve might change. That is the more accurate statement. Today's to 80% might become part of the lower range by default, but overall, we'd be looking at a much better bell curve than the one we have now.
Eliminate the low end of the range, and you raise the standard for the entire range.
Not so. The composition of the bell curve might change. That is the more accurate statement. Today's to 80% might become part of the lower range by default, but overall, we'd be looking at a much better bell curve than the one we have now.
Eliminate the low end of the range, and you raise the standard for the entire range.
I like where you're going with this; but you have to think of it this way. How do you take those cancer cells out? Do you research and come up with a way of safely removing it or do you go in with a butter knife and spread the cancer even more, thus increasing it? The latter is what we have done.
Agreed. The problem with the analogy is that locating the cancer is not dependent on the cooperation of healthy cells. Locating terrorists is dependent on the cooperation of the Iraqi people, and that's where I fall off this horse.
In America, we have this charge called aiding and abetting a known fugitive, and even felony accessory charges. meaning, if you know where a felon is, and assist them or do nothing about them, you can be held criminally accountable.
I am certain that there are "innocent" Iraqi civilians who know the whereabouts and identities of terrorists. If they do nothing, they are effectively aiding the terrorists, and shoudl be considered accessories to their terrorist acts.
Not so. The composition of the bell curve might change. That is the more accurate statement. Today's to 80% might become part of the lower range by default, but overall, we'd be looking at a much better bell curve than the one we have now.
Eliminate the low end of the range, and you raise the standard for the entire range.
good luck with that then. im sure it will work very well.
So you value human lives at different levels depending upon which nationality they are? That's sad.
you just dont get it do you? iraqis were killing each other before we got there, and they're killing each other even more now that we're there. so how has our presence in any way helped save or protect innocent lives? if the iraqis want to kill each other, we cannot stop it (as is evidenced by what has happened there over the past 3 years). so id rather my money did not go to support killing anyone, be they iraqi or american. id prefer my money went to things like educating our citizens, providing health care for our kids, and putting more police an our streets to make us safer. if you want to fund public schools in iraq, i might be ok with that. but im not ok with spending a bunch of money on putting american soldiers into iraq so they can kill more iraqis and maybe get killed themselves. all we are doing is adding to the death count. they dont want our help, so why should we be over there dying and helping them die more? let them sort it out themselves.
Nowhere in my post did I suggest genocide or racial purity.
And again, if people know who the terrorists are, and don't give them up for whatever reason...they are hardly innocent.
Well, you're talking about wiping out the "bottom end of the bell curve". I don't know what you want to call that, but the mindset is similar to racial purity theories and the proposed course of action uncomfortably close to what I say.
And knowing who the terrorists are, is in fact the problem. And such an attitude can justify a lot of innocent killing, as long as you get the "bad guys".
As I said, I dont like that way of thinking about it.
Peace
Dan
"YOU [humans] NEED TO BELIEVE IN THINGS THAT AREN'T TRUE. HOW ELSE CAN THEY BECOME?" - Death
"Every judgment teeters on the brink of error. To claim absolute knowledge is to become monstrous. Knowledge is an unending adventure at the edge of uncertainty." - Frank Herbert, Dune, 1965
Cut n run, stay the course, all BS. Nobody wants a a disaster in the middle east, the foct part is that this admin caused it and doenst have a clue how to solve it.
Should the American, um, "empire" accept defeat and cut and run from Iraq?
Why does the Democrat(ic?) party (and the American LEFT) have a vested interest in America's defeat and humiliation?
...
Let me ask you a couple of questions...
If you are serious about 'Winning' in Iraq... why weren't you SERIOUS about it since 2003?
To clarify... Why was it that Gay Marriages, Steroids in Baseball, Illegal Busboys and Swift Boats and the worthlessness of Navy Bronze Stars and Purple Hearts MORE important to you than the War?
...
Also... why do you see Ameicans as the enemy?
Does my having a different view on the direction of my country place me on the same list you put Usama bin Laden? And why hate countries like France and Germany so much... for NOT going in on our little fiasco in the desert? Especially when the overwhelming majority of September 11th attackers came from Saudi Arabia.
...
Finally... Why bother asking such a dim-witted loaded question? What American is going to say, "Yeah... I hope we lose so there can be more attack on our people"? Trying to politicize everything into convienient little Red or Blue boxes so you can wage idiotic attacks on fellow Americans is what empowers terrorists. They are counting on our division... it works in their favor.
...
So, to answer your lame question... It is such a lame question, i'm not even going to bother answering it.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
What's wrong with this approach to sealing Iraq's borders to prevent foreign intervention....
Announce to the world that the U.S. is closing the borders with Syria, Iran and Turkey - except for a few strategic entry/exit points.
Then patrol the borders using Predator drones, satellites, sensors, boots on the ground, etc....
It we catch somebody where their not supposed to be, we will kill them no questions asked.
Sure, some people would try it or some idiots would get killed even though they were innocent. But after awhile, everybody would except these rules and it would go a long way in securing the country...
Why didn't we do this in the first place????????????????????? Why don't we do this with Mexico??????????????
Should the American, um, "empire" accept defeat and cut and run from Iraq?
Why does the Democrat(ic?) party (and the American LEFT) have a vested interest in America's defeat and humiliation?
typical childish rah-rah view of the situation.
everyone has lost in this disgusting situation, as is usual with a war. this is not a fucking football game with a "winner" and a "loser". it is your type of mentality that just disgusts me. it is not about winning and losing, it is about right and wrong and maybe trying to save some lives.
but kick back on your sofa, put on the team usa jersey and keep rooting for a "victory"... whatever the fuck that is?
What's wrong with this approach to sealing Iraq's borders to prevent foreign intervention....
Announce to the world that the U.S. is closing the borders with Syria, Iran and Turkey - except for a few strategic entry/exit points.
Then patrol the borders using Predator drones, satellites, sensors, boots on the ground, etc....
It we catch somebody where their not supposed to be, we will kill them no questions asked.
Sure, some people would try it or some idiots would get killed even though they were innocent. But after awhile, everybody would except these rules and it would go a long way in securing the country...
Why didn't we do this in the first place????????????????????? Why don't we do this with Mexico??????????????
...
Dude... that's what I was wondering.
Remember when they had their first elections over there and Bush/Cheney/Rumsfeld proclaimed victory by SECURING THE BORDERS prior to and during the elections? If THAT worked... WHY DIDN'T THEY KEEP THEM SEALED???
...
The problem i see with that now... is that all the people killing each other are already there... Iraqi Sunnis versus iraqi Shi'ites. That is where the main killings are coming from.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
Comments
A civil war will establish who is in charge. Someone will win, and will run the country. As it is now, we are imposing a government that Iraq doesn't want, and we prevent anyone from winning. Basically now they are fighting against us while also attempting to possition for when we leave. But these possitions can not be taken until we do leave.
Why? If it's not your life personally, then a life is a life. It's pathetic to value the life of an American (or any nationality) over the life of someone in a different country SIMPLY because they do not have the same citizenship as you.
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
Do you think the volume of killing will increase or decrease if the U.S. just pulls out?
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
Over the course of the following year... I believe it will be less.
R.i.p. My Dad - May 28, 2007
R.i.p. Black Tail (cat) - Sept. 20, 2008
I disagree with you, but am at least relieved that you think that way (however misguided it may be). If you said you thought the killing would be more, than it would be despicable to want to withdraw the troops.
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
if you dont mind...
I think winning means defeating any insugency (forgein fighters fighting the US and iraqi government. el queda fighters loyal to osama bin laden and his cause). establishing a democratically elected government that represents all factions of the country with a trained military and police force.
the second part largely involves the Iraqis themselves calling for peace. this might be the impossible part. Iran is such a big influence and the hatred goes back to the very long war they fought.
I'm not an expert on the sunni shiite history or what it takes to actually have them live in peace.
I just hope they can. long shot? yes. possible? I hope so.
becos what they want to do with their country is none of my business. i think if we left, there would be less killing on the whole and things would stabilize. but regardless, there is going to be killing over there no matter what we do. id just as soon not have my money contributing to it and my friends having to become part of it. if they feel like chopping each other up, i see no reason why i should pay to have my friends get chopped up too. becos after 3 years, it's pretty clear that the US military being over there hasnt done a damn thing to lessen the violence over there.
a durrrr du dumm de dum....
So if it's not your friend being murdered, do you have a problem with the government prosecuting murderers in this country? It's your money, after all, and you didn't know the person being murdered, so your tax dollars shouldn't go toward it. I mean, come on, there are going to be murders anyway...
You could apply this analogy to stealing, tax evasion or any crime.
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
no, this analogy doesn't apply over here. becos i pay taxes so that my government can protect me. i dont pay taxes to protect people in another country that has its own government that could do that if it wanted. the job of the US government is to protect its citizens' interests. its job is not to divert resources that could be used to fix problems affecting its citizens' interests into a wasteful and ineffective effort to protect the interests of a people who dont want the protection. iraq was and is iraq's problem, not the US's problem. we should not be there and never should have been. i want my government worrying about my problems and the problems of my fellow americans, not the problems of countries that never asked for our help.
The USA was a great example of a country that formed by kicking out foreign rulers (British) and they themselves needed to battle each other (civil war) to be the country America is today...it seems to me early Americans wanted to run their country under their rules...is it absurd to believe that Iraqi's do not also want to run the country their way....I do not think so...what is so inconceivable about Iraqis raising their country up from the ashes...I am postive a lot of people think them as inferior people uncapable of bringing forth responsible government....therefore they need help (i.e. propped up government branded made in America)...these people are different than us in the west and therefore need to devlelop their form of government....they got help in removing a ruthless dictator they should now be allowed to build their country back....it may not be western in thought (it will never be, that is what is great about cultural diversity in the world, heaven forbid something be different than what we take as normal).
It is just an absolute shame that this situation has been made into a gigantic cluster fuck because of irresponsible planning and motives...this could have been a shining moment for America....help a Middle Eastern country remove a tyrannt in a area of high anti-Western idealogy....then leave...unfortunaly now we see the name of America dragged and kicked through the mud...which is too bad that some mindless fools have disgraced the name of their country....I personally would have loved to see America have a shining moment in Iraq...too bad that time has come and gone.....some people see it as absurd to have left that earlier...however I view staying just as absurd...and now (hindsight and all) we can see what has proven to be more futile....lets just hope that those over there (Iraqis and soldiers alike) can get back to normailty somehow.....and I for one hope that America can remove the tarnish from its name because it just does not deserve it because of the incompetance of a few high powered officials.....
So you value human lives at different levels depending upon which nationality they are? That's sad.
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
Yikes. Exchange terrorists for jews, and see what happens with this statement. Racial purity theories operated from exactly those kinds of reasonings and premises. And seeming terrorists are a bit hard to find and identify mostly, well, we will have to sacrifice some healthy flesh to get at the tumorous parts right? Frankly my soul shudders at this.
(edit) As for anyone winning anything, I see that largely as irrelevant. This isn't a competition or a game of risk or whatever. This is people's lives we're talking about and dealing with. The US in Iraq is in a Catch 22 condition now anyway. Damned either way.
Peace
Dan
"Every judgment teeters on the brink of error. To claim absolute knowledge is to become monstrous. Knowledge is an unending adventure at the edge of uncertainty." - Frank Herbert, Dune, 1965
You can't defeat terrorism by killing it, it's always going to be there. Attack the cause. It's like saying if we kill all the poor than that will get rid of the poverty problem.
I think we need to exit ASAP.. we've fucked it up and it's without a doubt going down near or on the top of our country's military fuck ups list. It's kind of tricky to weigh leaving and destabilizing a region and staying in a rapidly destabilizing region, but I opt for the former.
http://www.wishlistfoundation.org
Oh my, they dropped the leash.
Morgan Freeman/Clint Eastwood 08' for President!
"Make our day"
Nowhere in my post did I suggest genocide or racial purity.
And again, if people know who the terrorists are, and don't give them up for whatever reason...they are hardly innocent.
old music: http://www.myspace.com/slowloader
Not so. The composition of the bell curve might change. That is the more accurate statement. Today's to 80% might become part of the lower range by default, but overall, we'd be looking at a much better bell curve than the one we have now.
Eliminate the low end of the range, and you raise the standard for the entire range.
old music: http://www.myspace.com/slowloader
Agree with this ... In theory, at least.
Agreed. The problem with the analogy is that locating the cancer is not dependent on the cooperation of healthy cells. Locating terrorists is dependent on the cooperation of the Iraqi people, and that's where I fall off this horse.
In America, we have this charge called aiding and abetting a known fugitive, and even felony accessory charges. meaning, if you know where a felon is, and assist them or do nothing about them, you can be held criminally accountable.
I am certain that there are "innocent" Iraqi civilians who know the whereabouts and identities of terrorists. If they do nothing, they are effectively aiding the terrorists, and shoudl be considered accessories to their terrorist acts.
old music: http://www.myspace.com/slowloader
good luck with that then. im sure it will work very well.
you just dont get it do you? iraqis were killing each other before we got there, and they're killing each other even more now that we're there. so how has our presence in any way helped save or protect innocent lives? if the iraqis want to kill each other, we cannot stop it (as is evidenced by what has happened there over the past 3 years). so id rather my money did not go to support killing anyone, be they iraqi or american. id prefer my money went to things like educating our citizens, providing health care for our kids, and putting more police an our streets to make us safer. if you want to fund public schools in iraq, i might be ok with that. but im not ok with spending a bunch of money on putting american soldiers into iraq so they can kill more iraqis and maybe get killed themselves. all we are doing is adding to the death count. they dont want our help, so why should we be over there dying and helping them die more? let them sort it out themselves.
Well, you're talking about wiping out the "bottom end of the bell curve". I don't know what you want to call that, but the mindset is similar to racial purity theories and the proposed course of action uncomfortably close to what I say.
And knowing who the terrorists are, is in fact the problem. And such an attitude can justify a lot of innocent killing, as long as you get the "bad guys".
As I said, I dont like that way of thinking about it.
Peace
Dan
"Every judgment teeters on the brink of error. To claim absolute knowledge is to become monstrous. Knowledge is an unending adventure at the edge of uncertainty." - Frank Herbert, Dune, 1965
-Greg Dulli
Let me ask you a couple of questions...
If you are serious about 'Winning' in Iraq... why weren't you SERIOUS about it since 2003?
To clarify... Why was it that Gay Marriages, Steroids in Baseball, Illegal Busboys and Swift Boats and the worthlessness of Navy Bronze Stars and Purple Hearts MORE important to you than the War?
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Also... why do you see Ameicans as the enemy?
Does my having a different view on the direction of my country place me on the same list you put Usama bin Laden? And why hate countries like France and Germany so much... for NOT going in on our little fiasco in the desert? Especially when the overwhelming majority of September 11th attackers came from Saudi Arabia.
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Finally... Why bother asking such a dim-witted loaded question? What American is going to say, "Yeah... I hope we lose so there can be more attack on our people"? Trying to politicize everything into convienient little Red or Blue boxes so you can wage idiotic attacks on fellow Americans is what empowers terrorists. They are counting on our division... it works in their favor.
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So, to answer your lame question... It is such a lame question, i'm not even going to bother answering it.
Hail, Hail!!!
Announce to the world that the U.S. is closing the borders with Syria, Iran and Turkey - except for a few strategic entry/exit points.
Then patrol the borders using Predator drones, satellites, sensors, boots on the ground, etc....
It we catch somebody where their not supposed to be, we will kill them no questions asked.
Sure, some people would try it or some idiots would get killed even though they were innocent. But after awhile, everybody would except these rules and it would go a long way in securing the country...
Why didn't we do this in the first place????????????????????? Why don't we do this with Mexico??????????????
typical childish rah-rah view of the situation.
everyone has lost in this disgusting situation, as is usual with a war. this is not a fucking football game with a "winner" and a "loser". it is your type of mentality that just disgusts me. it is not about winning and losing, it is about right and wrong and maybe trying to save some lives.
but kick back on your sofa, put on the team usa jersey and keep rooting for a "victory"... whatever the fuck that is?
this is not a game of "risk"
Dude... that's what I was wondering.
Remember when they had their first elections over there and Bush/Cheney/Rumsfeld proclaimed victory by SECURING THE BORDERS prior to and during the elections? If THAT worked... WHY DIDN'T THEY KEEP THEM SEALED???
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The problem i see with that now... is that all the people killing each other are already there... Iraqi Sunnis versus iraqi Shi'ites. That is where the main killings are coming from.
Hail, Hail!!!