"war Is Not A Solution To Terrorism" (howard Zinn)

my2hands
my2hands Posts: 17,117
edited September 2006 in A Moving Train
I completely agree with this article 100%

also, zinn has a new book out called "Original Zinn"... full of interviews with the co-author...great stuff, check it out!

http://www.boston.com/news/globe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2006/09/02/war_is_not_a_solution_for_terrorism/

War Is Not a Solution for Terrorism
By Howard Zinn
The Boston Globe

Saturday 02 September 2006

There is something important to be learned from the recent experience of the United States and Israel in the Middle East: that massive military attacks, inevitably indiscriminate, are not only morally reprehensible, but useless in achieving the stated aims of those who carry them out.

The United States, in three years of war, which began with shock-and-awe bombardment and goes on with day-to-day violence and chaos, has been an utter failure in its claimed objective of bringing democracy and stability to Iraq. The Israeli invasion and bombing of Lebanon has not brought security to Israel; indeed it has increased the number of its enemies, whether in Hezbollah or Hamas or among Arabs who belong to neither of those groups.

I remember John Hersey's novel, "The War Lover," in which a macho American pilot, who loves to drop bombs on people and also to boast about his sexual conquests, turns out to be impotent. President Bush, strutting in his flight jacket on an aircraft carrier and announcing victory in Iraq, has turned out to be much like the Hersey character, his words equally boastful, his military machine impotent.

The history of wars fought since the end of World War II reveals the futility of large-scale violence. The United States and the Soviet Union, despite their enormous firepower, were unable to defeat resistance movements in small, weak nations - the United States in Vietnam, the Soviet Union in Afghanistan - and were forced to withdraw.

Even the "victories" of great military powers turn out to be elusive. Presumably, after attacking and invading Afghanistan, the president was able to declare that the Taliban were defeated. But more than four years later, Afghanistan is rife with violence, and the Taliban are active in much of the country.

The two most powerful nations after World War II, the United States and the Soviet Union, with all their military might, have not been able to control events in countries that they considered to be in their sphere of influence - the Soviet Union in Eastern Europe and the United States in Latin America.

Beyond the futility of armed force, and ultimately more important, is the fact that war in our time inevitably results in the indiscriminate killing of large numbers of people. To put it more bluntly, war is terrorism. That is why a "war on terrorism" is a contradiction in terms. Wars waged by nations, whether by the United States or Israel, are a hundred times more deadly for innocent people than the attacks by terrorists, vicious as they are.

The repeated excuse, given by both Pentagon spokespersons and Israeli officials, for dropping bombs where ordinary people live is that terrorists hide among civilians. Therefore the killing of innocent people (in Iraq, in Lebanon) is called accidental, whereas the deaths caused by terrorists (on 9/11, by Hezbollah rockets) are deliberate.

This is a false distinction, quickly refuted with a bit of thought. If a bomb is deliberately dropped on a house or a vehicle on the grounds that a "suspected terrorist" is inside (note the frequent use of the word suspected as evidence of the uncertainty surrounding targets), the resulting deaths of women and children may not be intentional. But neither are they accidental. The proper description is "inevitable."

So if an action will inevitably kill innocent people, it is as immoral as a deliberate attack on civilians. And when you consider that the number of innocent people dying inevitably in "accidental" events has been far, far greater than all the deaths deliberately caused by terrorists, one must reject war as a solution for terrorism.

For instance, more than a million civilians in Vietnam were killed by US bombs, presumably by "accident." Add up all the terrorist attacks throughout the world in the 20th century and they do not equal that awful toll.

If reacting to terrorist attacks by war is inevitably immoral, then we must look for ways other than war to end terrorism, including the terrorism of war. And if military retaliation for terrorism is not only immoral but futile, then political leaders, however cold-blooded their calculations, may have to reconsider their policies.
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Comments

  • Funny I have be re-iterating these type of thoughts through-out this board for the last few months (to very little fanfare)...although Zinn is much better at articulating his thoughts than I can of mine.....great article thanks my2hands....
  • he should add that democracy cannot be delivered in a Wal Mart truck... totally agree with him, war/military do not solve terrorism, what i've been saying for months...
    "L'homme est né libre, et partout il est dans les fers"
    -Jean-Jacques Rousseau
  • he should add that democracy cannot be delivered in a Wal Mart truck... totally agree with him, war/military do not solve terrorism, what i've been saying for months...

    Bonjour....welcome back.....
  • acutejam
    acutejam Posts: 1,433
    I agree with many of the points Zinn makes, well articulated.

    But I don't understand how we've seen "an utter failure in its claimed objective of bringing democracy and stability to Iraq."

    Stability, certainly we're battling that front still, some places are indeed stable, some certainly not.

    But Democracy? Utter Failure? I can't conceed that point -- Iraqi's have a voice now in how their country is run. Voter turnout was spectacular in the face of extremely adverse conditions.
    [sic] happens
  • acutejam wrote:
    I agree with many of the points Zinn makes, well articulated.

    But I don't understand how we've seen "an utter failure in its claimed objective of bringing democracy and stability to Iraq."

    Stability, certainly we're battling that front still, some places are indeed stable, some certainly not.

    But Democracy? Utter Failure? I can't conceed that point -- Iraqi's have a voice now in how their country is run. Voter turnout was spectacular in the face of extremely adverse conditions.
    The situation in Iraq worse than ever since we've destabilized the region. Sure technically they have the right to vote by law, but writing that into law and making it work properly are 2 seperate things.

    Violence is escalating every day and it shows no signs of slowing down anytime soon (ask our military, they've been saying it for awhile). "Utter failure" is a pretty accurate statement.
    Come on pilgrim you know he loves you..

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  • Abuskedti
    Abuskedti Posts: 1,917
    acutejam wrote:
    I agree with many of the points Zinn makes, well articulated.

    But I don't understand how we've seen "an utter failure in its claimed objective of bringing democracy and stability to Iraq."

    Stability, certainly we're battling that front still, some places are indeed stable, some certainly not.

    But Democracy? Utter Failure? I can't conceed that point -- Iraqi's have a voice now in how their country is run. Voter turnout was spectacular in the face of extremely adverse conditions.

    Iraq has no voice.. the merely get to case a vote - a meaningless vote for many reasons...

    not the least of which is that they vote for the United States to leave them alone.
  • darkcrow
    darkcrow Posts: 1,102
    acutejam wrote:
    I agree with many of the points Zinn makes, well articulated.

    But I don't understand how we've seen "an utter failure in its claimed objective of bringing democracy and stability to Iraq."

    Stability, certainly we're battling that front still, some places are indeed stable, some certainly not.

    But Democracy? Utter Failure? I can't conceed that point -- Iraqi's have a voice now in how their country is run. Voter turnout was spectacular in the face of extremely adverse conditions.

    if the "coalition" left iraq then it'd be ripped apart by civil war/war. there is only "democracy" becuase of occupation... can that really be occupation?

    something that it seems most people have forgotten is that democracy is only gained by the people of that country, not by outside powers forcing it on the country. we in england only got democracy after a civil war. you in the us only got it after kicking our asses. the people in india only got it by kicking the asses of the english and then kicking the asses out of each other. the people of france went through a number of revolutions...

    i think what we ahve learnt here is iraq is not actually free. it is being held together by a very weak glue of foreign troops/mercinaries. if they left there would be no iraq. the same would happen in afghanistan.

    voting is totally meaningless when the vote is only safe guarded by foriegn troops. the whole idea of democracy is that you do no need the threat of the gun to uphold the ideal, it the ideal itself...
  • acutejam
    acutejam Posts: 1,433
    Well, again, I conceed the stability arguement. I don't agree that stability is wholly tied into democracy. First off, the principle of democracy is definitely flourishing, the idea that they get to elect their leaders and representatives and that those folks get to hammer out a system to run the country is there, undeniably (and it scares the crap out of some). As for the actuality, those are elected respresentatives -- perhaps they could not defend themselves if we left, perhaps they could. Folks have been know to rise to incredible feats recently -- lots of democratic revolution!

    I admit your "outside enforcement" of democracy rings true for the most part. But then I would offer you: Japan. Utter failure in democracy and stability? Nope. Long, long occupation? Yep.

    As for safeguarding democracy by outside troops: West Germany? Seemed to work well for them. But admittedly they were already supportive of a democracy, undestood the principle. But definitely needed some outside support, against an external threat, some analogies exist with Iranian influence of Iraqi events....

    Both Japan and Germany are utter success stories 50 years out. It took a lot of time for that to happen. I still have a lot of hope for Iraq and Afghanistan but it's not going to be easy.
    [sic] happens
  • darkcrow
    darkcrow Posts: 1,102
    i conceed those two examples but they are wholey different to what we are facing. islam/the middle east is a totally different prospect compared to west germany and japan. these were countries that were on their knees after the devistating world war... iraq/afgahnistan are seen as an invaion and there is an idea/ideal of a "nation of islam" a global islamic movment where if you hurt one then you hurt them all. as such we are seen as imposing our western democracy, something they (militants) do not want. the people seem to but when they cannot defend themselves will they shout out when the forign troops leave or will they submit just like the afghans did with the taliban?

    democracy as yet to be perfected, even in our neck of the woods. there is corruption and scandle in the usa and britian. democracy may be the closest thing we have to a fair system but as anyhting made by humans it is riddled with fault from the start...
  • hippiemom
    hippiemom Posts: 3,326
    acutejam wrote:
    Well, again, I conceed the stability arguement. I don't agree that stability is wholly tied into democracy. First off, the principle of democracy is definitely flourishing, the idea that they get to elect their leaders and representatives and that those folks get to hammer out a system to run the country is there, undeniably (and it scares the crap out of some). As for the actuality, those are elected respresentatives -- perhaps they could not defend themselves if we left, perhaps they could. Folks have been know to rise to incredible feats recently -- lots of democratic revolution!
    But look at what they're voting for! Shiites are voting for a Shiite government. Sunnis are voting for a Sunni government. Kurds voted for an entirely separate country. The secular parties got virtually no support ... no one is voting for anything that you or I or anyone in the west would call "democracy." Whatever results may be democratically elected, but that's where it will end. Over 2,500 U.S. lives, god knows how many Iraqi lives, and a billion dollars a week ... for a democratically elected theocracy?! This strikes me as a poor investment.
    "Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." ~ MLK, 1963
  • acutejam
    acutejam Posts: 1,433
    As with most elections in the region, I'd rather NOT look at who they're voting for and just be content that they get a vote at all. The consequences of that vote are for them (as Palistinians and Lebanese are finding out....) I was happy those groups got to vote too, now they have to live with the consequences. Or is "world opinion" reserved for when Republicans are in office? Maybe that will influence their next vote? And I hope they get a next vote....

    But I do agree, our recent wars are misguided (Iraq more so than Afghan), as I posted elsewhere, when the Japanese struck Pearl Harbor, we didn't declare war on "Aviation." Terror is just the means, and we know who the culprits are.

    I think the "investment" made in the Civil War was, sadly, very much worth it. And I imagine 2-3 years removed many people would have utterly disagreed.
    [sic] happens
  • Appeasement and negotiations is the solution to terrorism.
    Lol..
    "If you want peace, be prepared for war."
    George Washington
  • Even the "victories" of great military powers turn out to be elusive.


    -Agreed.



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  • acroyear wrote:
    Appeasement and negotiations is the solution to terrorism.
    Lol..

    So much as ABRUPT action, so long it gives you security asap.

    :(
    Rarghstarfarian.
  • Abuskedti
    Abuskedti Posts: 1,917
    acroyear wrote:
    Appeasement and negotiations is the solution to terrorism.
    Lol..

    Or perhaps acting with integrity and honest so as not to inspire hate and to gain the trust and help of the international community
  • Puck78
    Puck78 Posts: 737
    acutejam wrote:
    As with most elections in the region, I'd rather NOT look at who they're voting for and just be content that they get a vote at all.
    this statement is ridicolous: then if they would go to vote for two puppet representants decided by a third nation, you would call it "a positive step forward"?
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  • Abuskedti
    Abuskedti Posts: 1,917
    Puck78 wrote:
    this statement is ridicolous: then if they would go to vote for two puppet representants decided by a third nation, you would call it "a positive step forward"?

    Of course he would... Our president does daily
  • acutejam
    acutejam Posts: 1,433
    Puck78 wrote:
    this statement is ridicolous: then if they would go to vote for two puppet representants decided by a third nation, you would call it "a positive step forward"?

    I guess I don't understand your point. I don't like Hamas or Hezbollah, the people in those regions voted for them. That didn't change my opinion of Hamas or Hezbollah. BUT, I'm encouraged that they got to vote at all. I'm hopeful that they will find that their newly elected representatives are not serving their interests and vote them out next round, but doubtful.

    Can't I hope they would vote for a solution, a less extreme party that might actually work on the issues, you know that talk and dialogue stuff, rather than for more suicide bombs and rocket attacks?

    Meanwhile in Iraq, again, encouraged that they got to vote, encouraged that all the different parties are trying to work out issues -- they're taking a stab at democracy even if only the religeous parties got votes. There were other parties and I would hope those secular parties gain a little more traction.

    Again, you elect leaders, see how they work out, then vote 'em again or vote 'em out. When those leaders cancel or rig the vote, then democracy is an "utter failure."

    Wouldn't you argue that one small reason to vote Bush out is World Opinion? I've heard that offered up ... Shouldn't that work both ways? (And no, I wouldn't make that argument personally....)
    [sic] happens
  • my2hands
    my2hands Posts: 17,117
    lets not forget that Nelson Mandella was once considered a "terrorist" and was jailed for many years...

    one persons terrorist is another persons freedom fighter
  • acroyear wrote:
    Appeasement and negotiations is the solution to terrorism.
    Lol..

    "David Lloyd George, the British Prime Minister at the time, found himself under increasing pressure (both international and from within Britain) to try to salvage something from the situation. This was a complete reversal of his earlier position. He had consistently referred to the IRA as a "murder gang" up until then. An unexpected olive branch came from King George V, who, in a speech in Belfast called for reconciliation on all sides, changed the mood and enabled the British and Irish Republican governments to agree a truce"

    ...so yes, it's probably the way to go, at least try.
    "L'homme est né libre, et partout il est dans les fers"
    -Jean-Jacques Rousseau