i wasnt saying that Osama or any terrorist was my freedom fighter...and i didnt condone violence as a legitimate action... i just think we all get caught up in these labels of "terrorist" and "insurgent"... we wonder how Hezbollah has such support in the middle east? it is not becasue everyone in the region is crazy or supports violence, but Hezbollah supports them and their causes in their eyes...much like Nelson Mandella supported the people of South Africa and their causes... not to say they are equal, just using as an example
Hezbollah supports a common cause of most nations in the Middle East, and that is weakening Israel. However, Hezbollah has their own specific cause, which is getting Israel completely out of Lebanon (despite the UN decision which changed the border) and getting back some prisoners they claim Israel is holding (which is probably true). However, states like Iran don't care about those causes. They care about weakening Israel, because it is the most powerful state in the region, and considered a huge threat. Hezbollah is in-line with Iran's (and others') interests, but they don't share the same reasons for fighting.
how can war not be the answere to terrorism, when terrorism itself is an act of war?
you answered your own question.
Ever hear the phrase 'two wrongs don't make a right' ?
You can't fight violence with more violence. The US has used that policy in more than a few occasions throughout the years and look how they turned out. (BTW the most notable of those instances is Vietnam..)
I really dislike this quote. It implies that just because a violent terrorist is viewed as a "freedom fighter" by someone that somehow that viewpoint is valid or has any grounding in reality.
I love how people apply this quote to Islamic extremists but won't apply it to the US government. If Osama Bin Laden is someone's "freedom fighter", so is George Bush. Unfortunately, neither man actually qualifies for the term.
It also implies that what we're doing is seen as 'right' and 'just' in our eyes, but pure terrorism in our vitcims'.
I don't usually post in this forum, but having read many of these arguments including Howard Zinn's, I have a question...
for the people who think we should not respond in a violent manner to terrorism, how do you stop it? When you're dealing with irrational extremists who believe that by sacrificing their own lives along with the lives of infidels (or as I'd like to say, innocent people who just have different religious beliefs) they are doing God's work, how do you respond? You can't make concessions. You can't use diplomacy or compromise. So, what do you do?
I am of the belief that you have to respond with military force. I think we were on the right track with our response in Afghanistan. I think we made a mistake with Iraq because that is not the root of the problem. But I just think its naive to think you can fight extremism and irrationality with diplomacy.
"Darkness comes in waves, tell me, why invite it to stay?"
Hezbollah supports a common cause of most nations in the Middle East, and that is weakening Israel. However, Hezbollah has their own specific cause, which is getting Israel completely out of Lebanon (despite the UN decision which changed the border) and getting back some prisoners they claim Israel is holding (which is probably true). However, states like Iran don't care about those causes. They care about weakening Israel, because it is the most powerful state in the region, and considered a huge threat. Hezbollah is in-line with Iran's (and others') interests, but they don't share the same reasons for fighting.
You could be right, maybe countries and groups in the region would prefer Israel to be less of a military force in the region. I'm sure most palestinians do. But can you blame them?
Why wouldn't they if you really look at the situation objectively. Israel has launched many cross border attacks into civilian zones, assassinated political leaders, recently launched a failed invasion of Lebanon (failed in large part due to Hizbollah resistance). I can't imagine anyone being opposed to demilitarizing Israel to some extent. They are, after all, the most aggressive force in the region.
Ever hear the phrase 'two wrongs don't make a right' ?
You can't fight violence with more violence. The US has used that policy in more than a few occasions throughout the years and look how they turned out. (BTW the most notable of those instances is Vietnam..)
if terorist perpitrate an act of war on your contry, a responsible government has the right and the responsibility, to fight back, plesant words do not deter terrorist, only saveer consiquenses will deter them.
wrong is a terorist atacking people, right is a contry defending its people
if some one attacked you personlly, what would you do? say oh no cant deffend my self must not use violence to fight violence???
War is no solution to terrorism? Nothing stated here as the solution either. It must be nice to live in world that only scoffs at administration and yet really has no answers to the actual problem.
What should we do instead of wage war against terrorism? Walk away? Ignore it?
If I jumped from Tower 1 on the 90th floor because that was a better choice than burning to death ( a decision I hope none of ever have to make ) I would have a few seconds to wonder who did this to me, and my wife and my kids. It would make me sad to think that I was leaving everything behind and no understanding of why or who did this. And maybe I would have enough time to ask that God help ensure that no one else would ever have to go through this like I was.
And the answer to those questions and thoughts of a dying person can only be given by those of us left alive. It is our mission to answer the questions, and stop those who will do it again.
I think we must wage war against those that have already stated that they are at war with us - we don't have a choice really. Only a choice of when.
The article is great for idealogical thinking and of course we want to avoid war and killing, but there are no answers here.
HOB 10.05.2005, E Rutherford 06.03.2006, The Gorge 07.22.2006, Lolla 08.05.2007, West Palm 06.11.2008, Tampa 06.12.2008, Columbia 06.16.2008, EV Memphis 06.20.2009, New Orleans 05.01.2010, Kansas City 05.03.2010
There's nothing wrong with the term "terrorist". That's what Osama Bin Laden is. He is unable to wage a full-scale armed war so he must wage a psychological war. That's what a terrorist does.
Yes the terms are overused in the sense that they often carry loaded meanings, for example that a "terrorist" is sub-human and deserves a horrible death regardless of the purpose of his terror. But you can get just as caught up in terms like "freedom fighter". The problem isn't with the terms, it's how they're being used. The people who say things like "one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter" in an effort to expose the hypocrisy of demanding a terrorist's execution in the name of freedom are usually the first to envoke moral equivalency and lampoon the United State's behavior as terrorism, thereby committing an equal hypocrisy.
The answer lies in the actual meaning of the words. A "freedom fighter" is someone who is fighting for the primary purpose of freedom. A "terrorist" is someone who is fighting for the primary purpose of invoking terror. It's not complicated. Osama Bin Laden is not someone who is fighting for freedom. He is fighting to inflict his own brand of facism and he does so through means of terror. It is certainly arguable that the United States is doing the same, but at the least one must recognize that the "fascism" the United States represents is a much lesser body of fascist doctrine.
The ANC in South Africa provides another good example. They were fighting against an oppressive regime and wished to impose a less oppressive regime. While certainly some of their actions merit the use of the word terror, the overall purpose of the movement was a greater measure of individual freedom for an oppressed population. The same does not hold true for Islamic radicals. Certainly one may argue that Arab populations are being actively oppressed, but one cannot get around the basic fact that these groups wish to impose more oppressive regimes, thereby making support for them self-defeating to anyone who holds freedom as a goal.
Stikingly intellegent! Thanks.
HOB 10.05.2005, E Rutherford 06.03.2006, The Gorge 07.22.2006, Lolla 08.05.2007, West Palm 06.11.2008, Tampa 06.12.2008, Columbia 06.16.2008, EV Memphis 06.20.2009, New Orleans 05.01.2010, Kansas City 05.03.2010
if terorist perpitrate an act of war on your contry, a responsible government has the right and the responsibility, to fight back, plesant words do not deter terrorist, only saveer consiquenses will deter them.
wrong is a terorist atacking people, right is a contry defending its people
if some one attacked you personlly, what would you do? say oh no cant deffend my self must not use violence to fight violence???
It's kind of like the "War on Drugs" I believe.
Fighting this in the traditional way, whether it be arrested hundreds of thousands of people or killing tens of thousands of people, just makes things worse if anything. The 'war on drugs' has undeniably proved that's true, and the 'war on terror' is shaping up the same way.
Jesus says turn the other cheek (btw, i don't think we need to turn the other cheek, but violence is not the answer to our problems)
Fighting this in the traditional way, whether it be arrested hundreds of thousands of people or killing tens of thousands of people, just makes things worse if anything. The 'war on drugs' has undeniably proved that's true, and the 'war on terror' is shaping up the same way.
Jesus says turn the other cheek (btw, i don't think we need to turn the other cheek, but violence is not the answer to our problems)
the enemy does not understand negotiations, or compromise, they only take notice of a show of strength, violence is all they understand
as for jesus, tell me were did he ever turn the other cheak
As would be expected form Zinn and those who mindlessly regurgitate this horsecrap, a solution is nowhere to be found.
Anyone can sit back and point out mistakes and call people failures, especially when that person is not willing to offer other solutions.
I say we just pull out of Iraq and everywhere else in the world and tell everyone that we're really sorry and that we ask for their forgiveness. We then agree to blow up our nation so that we can help expedite their mission for them.
Just because Zinn can articulate his thoughts well doesn't mean his thoughts have any worth.
there once was a funny quote from a funny poem about a douchebag where this sentence is now.
As would be expected form Zinn and those who mindlessly regurgitate this horsecrap, a solution is nowhere to be found.
Anyone can sit back and point out mistakes and call people failures, especially when that person is not willing to offer other solutions.
I say we just pull out of Iraq and everywhere else in the world and tell everyone that we're really sorry and that we ask for their forgiveness. We then agree to blow up our nation so that we can help expedite their mission for them.
Just because Zinn can articulate his thoughts well doesn't mean his thoughts have any worth.
I think he pushes for diplomacy.....which can be done in many ways....foreign aid (instead of dollars for weapons), help institue social institutions in these coutries....reward countries for removing terrorist activity in their borders, remove embargo's in exchange for co-operation to remove terror cells...more like work hand-in-hand with problematic countries then going in and bombing and invetiabily create more people that hate you....now you tell me what has war accomplished....?
Because I am sick of those regurgitating crap about war is the only way to win the war on terror...funny you don't understand Zinn but you will believe that violence, in this scenerio, leads to peace?
I think he pushes for diplomacy.....which can be done in many ways....foreign aid (instead of dollars for weapons), help institue social institutions in these coutries....reward countries for removing terrorist activity in their borders, remove embargo's in exchange for co-operation to remove terror cells...more like work hand-in-hand with problematic countries then going in and bombing and invetiabily create more people that hate you....now you tell me what has war accomplished....?
Because I am sick of those regurgitating crap about war is the only way to win the war on terror...funny you don't understand Zinn but you will believe that violence, in this scenerio, leads to peace?
do you really believe that countries that are run by individuals with strong ties to known terrorists groups are going to help us "institute social institutions", remove terrorist groups that they(the leaders of the country) support, and remove terrorist cells????
are you joking?
your ideas all sound very idealistic and euphoric, but would only work in countries that were run by leaders who were completely separate from the terrorists.
so do you suggest that instead of going into afghanistan and bombing their country, that we should have gone to the Taliban government and discussed ways to help remove Al Qaeda cells? You cannot be serious.
there once was a funny quote from a funny poem about a douchebag where this sentence is now.
do you really believe that countries that are run by individuals with strong ties to known terrorists groups are going to help us "institute social institutions", remove terrorist groups that they(the leaders of the country) support, and remove terrorist cells????
are you joking?
your ideas all sound very idealistic and euphoric, but would only work in countries that were run by leaders who were completely separate from the terrorists.
so do you suggest that instead of going into afghanistan and bombing their country, that we should have gone to the Taliban government and discussed ways to help remove Al Qaeda cells? You cannot be serious.
these countrie you mention are our "closest allies and business partners"... saudi arabia and pakistan are examples
we have the mess that these guys wanted... it is all about profit and hegemonic control of natural resources...even a 5 year old can see this if you ask me?
it is no shock to me that human beings cant wrap their mind around non-violent action... we have been taught that war is acceptable and even honorary in most circumstances... so your plan is to just keep killin gother members of our species in mass, to stop future killing
war is peace... it is one scary planet, with one fucked up species running it
it is no shock to me that human beings cant wrap their mind around non-violent action... we have been taught that war is acceptable and even honorary in most circumstances... so your plan is to just keep killin gother members of our species in mass, to stop future killing
war is peace... it is one scary planet, with one fucked up species running it
what in the world are you talking about?? it drives me crazy when i hear people say that war is wanted.
nobody wants war. nobody wants to send kids of to fight and die. nobody wants this.
nobody wanted terrorists to fly planes into buildings.
you are failing to recognize that, believe it or not, the U.S. would love to live in a world where war did not exist. the terrorists want the destruction of the west and the destruction of anyone who does not take Islam literally. they see murder as the only means to achieve their goal. nobody sees war as peace. war is seen as a means for eliminating people who will not allow others to make their own free decisions and live without fear, in this case the terrorists and dictators who suppress the people who live in their country.
we responded to an attack. if we were to have sat back and not done anything in Iraq and given Saddam another decade to work his magic, the U.S. government would have been chastised for not doing more.
there once was a funny quote from a funny poem about a douchebag where this sentence is now.
Imagine an iron house without windows, absolutely indestructible, with many people fast asleep inside who will soon die of suffocation. But you know since they will die in their sleep, they will not feel the pain of death. Now if you cry aloud to waken a few of the lighter sleepers, making those unfortunate few suffer the agony of irrevocable death, do you think you are doing them a good turn? But if a few awake, you can't say there is no hope of destroying the iron house.
-- Selected Short Stories of Lu Xun
Liberalism is a philosophy of consolation for Western civilization as it commits suicide.
Imagine an iron house without windows, absolutely indestructible, with many people fast asleep inside who will soon die of suffocation. But you know since they will die in their sleep, they will not feel the pain of death. Now if you cry aloud to waken a few of the lighter sleepers, making those unfortunate few suffer the agony of irrevocable death, do you think you are doing them a good turn? But if a few awake, you can't say there is no hope of destroying the iron house.
-- Selected Short Stories of Lu Xun
Umm...you already did say that: "absolutely indestructible".
Liberalism is a philosophy of consolation for Western civilization as it commits suicide.
-- James Burnham
That one I can get on board with, at least to a certain extent.
we responded to an attack. if we were to have sat back and not done anything in Iraq and given Saddam another decade to work his magic, the U.S. government would have been chastised for not doing more.
What attack are you referring to?
Your post makes it sound like our only options were to sit back and not do anything and to go to war. There were TONS of other options besides launching an invasion, and most of them wouldn't have resulted in the bloody clusterfuck we have over there now.
"Of course it hurts. You're getting fucked by an elephant."
the enemy does not understand negotiations, or compromise, they only take notice of a show of strength, violence is all they understand
as for jesus, tell me were did he ever turn the other cheak
Are you kidding?
That's practically Jesus's fucking catchphrase!
I can't tell you exactly where this lesson is taught, but i'm sure some of the religious people on the train can fill in that blank. Famous story dude.
As for the other part of your post all I can say is violence is not the answer. You want proof? Look at how the situation is going now and every other time we've used violence to solve our problems.
Reason with people who's belief has them strapping bombs on their little sisters to blow up a bus full of children?
The only clear solution would've been to drop a couple of Nuclear Bombs on the entire Middle East - There I said it -
I would never wish such a thing and I'm glad that did'nt happen
The other alternative is to unleash the mightiest Military force known to man on the Middle East and try to change this crap from the top to the bottom
That is only how my eyes see it , at least
I'll keep taking punches
Untill their will grows tired
The other alternative is to unleash the mightiest Military force known to man on the Middle East and try to change this crap from the top to the bottom
Not great , but it does beat the alternative of having these fucks blow up our citizens thinking that all we'll do is lob some cruise missles from hundreds of miles away into un-attended huts in the middle of the night - that was the point
I'll keep taking punches
Untill their will grows tired
Not great , but it does beat the alternative of having these fucks blow up our citizens thinking that all we'll do is lob some cruise missles from hundreds of miles away into un-attended huts in the middle of the night - that was the point
that's not an alternative. Our choices aren't 'ignore it' and 'go to war'. It isn't black and white.. that said, I don't think anyone is really sure what exactly to do about it. Esp. looking at the results, violence is the wrong answer in every way.
that's not an alternative. Our choices aren't 'ignore it' and 'go to war'. It isn't black and white.. that said, I don't think anyone is really sure what exactly to do about it. Esp. looking at the results, violence is the wrong answer in every way.
I believe you are right about anyone not being really sure what to do about it
I believe you are wrong about violence being the definitive wrong answer
I'll keep taking punches
Untill their will grows tired
Reason with people who's belief has them strapping bombs on their little sisters to blow up a bus full of children?
The only clear solution would've been to drop a couple of Nuclear Bombs on the entire Middle East - There I said it -
I would never wish such a thing and I'm glad that did'nt happen
The other alternative is to unleash the mightiest Military force known to man on the Middle East and try to change this crap from the top to the bottom
Comments
Hezbollah supports a common cause of most nations in the Middle East, and that is weakening Israel. However, Hezbollah has their own specific cause, which is getting Israel completely out of Lebanon (despite the UN decision which changed the border) and getting back some prisoners they claim Israel is holding (which is probably true). However, states like Iran don't care about those causes. They care about weakening Israel, because it is the most powerful state in the region, and considered a huge threat. Hezbollah is in-line with Iran's (and others') interests, but they don't share the same reasons for fighting.
Ever hear the phrase 'two wrongs don't make a right' ?
You can't fight violence with more violence. The US has used that policy in more than a few occasions throughout the years and look how they turned out. (BTW the most notable of those instances is Vietnam..)
http://www.wishlistfoundation.org
Oh my, they dropped the leash.
Morgan Freeman/Clint Eastwood 08' for President!
"Make our day"
it's a fairly valid quote in my opinion.
http://www.wishlistfoundation.org
Oh my, they dropped the leash.
Morgan Freeman/Clint Eastwood 08' for President!
"Make our day"
Homicidal nihilism is produced only by the resistance to it!
Yes it does. The problem with that implication is that two competing viewpoints of a similar situation are not necessarily equal.
for the people who think we should not respond in a violent manner to terrorism, how do you stop it? When you're dealing with irrational extremists who believe that by sacrificing their own lives along with the lives of infidels (or as I'd like to say, innocent people who just have different religious beliefs) they are doing God's work, how do you respond? You can't make concessions. You can't use diplomacy or compromise. So, what do you do?
I am of the belief that you have to respond with military force. I think we were on the right track with our response in Afghanistan. I think we made a mistake with Iraq because that is not the root of the problem. But I just think its naive to think you can fight extremism and irrationality with diplomacy.
Laugh. And then get to work.
You could be right, maybe countries and groups in the region would prefer Israel to be less of a military force in the region. I'm sure most palestinians do. But can you blame them?
Why wouldn't they if you really look at the situation objectively. Israel has launched many cross border attacks into civilian zones, assassinated political leaders, recently launched a failed invasion of Lebanon (failed in large part due to Hizbollah resistance). I can't imagine anyone being opposed to demilitarizing Israel to some extent. They are, after all, the most aggressive force in the region.
wrong is a terorist atacking people, right is a contry defending its people
if some one attacked you personlly, what would you do? say oh no cant deffend my self must not use violence to fight violence???
What should we do instead of wage war against terrorism? Walk away? Ignore it?
If I jumped from Tower 1 on the 90th floor because that was a better choice than burning to death ( a decision I hope none of ever have to make ) I would have a few seconds to wonder who did this to me, and my wife and my kids. It would make me sad to think that I was leaving everything behind and no understanding of why or who did this. And maybe I would have enough time to ask that God help ensure that no one else would ever have to go through this like I was.
And the answer to those questions and thoughts of a dying person can only be given by those of us left alive. It is our mission to answer the questions, and stop those who will do it again.
I think we must wage war against those that have already stated that they are at war with us - we don't have a choice really. Only a choice of when.
The article is great for idealogical thinking and of course we want to avoid war and killing, but there are no answers here.
Stikingly intellegent! Thanks.
Fighting this in the traditional way, whether it be arrested hundreds of thousands of people or killing tens of thousands of people, just makes things worse if anything. The 'war on drugs' has undeniably proved that's true, and the 'war on terror' is shaping up the same way.
Jesus says turn the other cheek
http://www.wishlistfoundation.org
Oh my, they dropped the leash.
Morgan Freeman/Clint Eastwood 08' for President!
"Make our day"
the enemy does not understand negotiations, or compromise, they only take notice of a show of strength, violence is all they understand
as for jesus, tell me were did he ever turn the other cheak
Did Zinn have any suggestions amidst his criticisms beyond suggesting the administration "rethink their policies?"
Anyone can sit back and point out mistakes and call people failures, especially when that person is not willing to offer other solutions.
I say we just pull out of Iraq and everywhere else in the world and tell everyone that we're really sorry and that we ask for their forgiveness. We then agree to blow up our nation so that we can help expedite their mission for them.
Just because Zinn can articulate his thoughts well doesn't mean his thoughts have any worth.
I think he pushes for diplomacy.....which can be done in many ways....foreign aid (instead of dollars for weapons), help institue social institutions in these coutries....reward countries for removing terrorist activity in their borders, remove embargo's in exchange for co-operation to remove terror cells...more like work hand-in-hand with problematic countries then going in and bombing and invetiabily create more people that hate you....now you tell me what has war accomplished....?
Because I am sick of those regurgitating crap about war is the only way to win the war on terror...funny you don't understand Zinn but you will believe that violence, in this scenerio, leads to peace?
do you really believe that countries that are run by individuals with strong ties to known terrorists groups are going to help us "institute social institutions", remove terrorist groups that they(the leaders of the country) support, and remove terrorist cells????
are you joking?
your ideas all sound very idealistic and euphoric, but would only work in countries that were run by leaders who were completely separate from the terrorists.
so do you suggest that instead of going into afghanistan and bombing their country, that we should have gone to the Taliban government and discussed ways to help remove Al Qaeda cells? You cannot be serious.
these countrie you mention are our "closest allies and business partners"... saudi arabia and pakistan are examples
we have the mess that these guys wanted... it is all about profit and hegemonic control of natural resources...even a 5 year old can see this if you ask me?
war is peace... it is one scary planet, with one fucked up species running it
what in the world are you talking about?? it drives me crazy when i hear people say that war is wanted.
nobody wants war. nobody wants to send kids of to fight and die. nobody wants this.
nobody wanted terrorists to fly planes into buildings.
you are failing to recognize that, believe it or not, the U.S. would love to live in a world where war did not exist. the terrorists want the destruction of the west and the destruction of anyone who does not take Islam literally. they see murder as the only means to achieve their goal. nobody sees war as peace. war is seen as a means for eliminating people who will not allow others to make their own free decisions and live without fear, in this case the terrorists and dictators who suppress the people who live in their country.
we responded to an attack. if we were to have sat back and not done anything in Iraq and given Saddam another decade to work his magic, the U.S. government would have been chastised for not doing more.
-- Selected Short Stories of Lu Xun
Liberalism is a philosophy of consolation for Western civilization as it commits suicide.
-- James Burnham
Umm...you already did say that: "absolutely indestructible".
That one I can get on board with, at least to a certain extent.
What attack are you referring to?
Your post makes it sound like our only options were to sit back and not do anything and to go to war. There were TONS of other options besides launching an invasion, and most of them wouldn't have resulted in the bloody clusterfuck we have over there now.
That's practically Jesus's fucking catchphrase!
I can't tell you exactly where this lesson is taught, but i'm sure some of the religious people on the train can fill in that blank. Famous story dude.
As for the other part of your post all I can say is violence is not the answer. You want proof? Look at how the situation is going now and every other time we've used violence to solve our problems.
http://www.wishlistfoundation.org
Oh my, they dropped the leash.
Morgan Freeman/Clint Eastwood 08' for President!
"Make our day"
Reason with people who's belief has them strapping bombs on their little sisters to blow up a bus full of children?
The only clear solution would've been to drop a couple of Nuclear Bombs on the entire Middle East - There I said it -
I would never wish such a thing and I'm glad that did'nt happen
The other alternative is to unleash the mightiest Military force known to man on the Middle East and try to change this crap from the top to the bottom
That is only how my eyes see it , at least
Untill their will grows tired
http://www.wishlistfoundation.org
Oh my, they dropped the leash.
Morgan Freeman/Clint Eastwood 08' for President!
"Make our day"
Not great , but it does beat the alternative of having these fucks blow up our citizens thinking that all we'll do is lob some cruise missles from hundreds of miles away into un-attended huts in the middle of the night - that was the point
Untill their will grows tired
http://www.wishlistfoundation.org
Oh my, they dropped the leash.
Morgan Freeman/Clint Eastwood 08' for President!
"Make our day"
I believe you are right about anyone not being really sure what to do about it
I believe you are wrong about violence being the definitive wrong answer
Untill their will grows tired
that mentality is just fucking sad