"war Is Not A Solution To Terrorism" (howard Zinn)

WindNoSail

farfromglorified wrote:

There's nothing wrong with the term "terrorist". That's what Osama Bin Laden is. He is unable to wage a full-scale armed war so he must wage a psychological war. That's what a terrorist does.

Yes the terms are overused in the sense that they often carry loaded meanings, for example that a "terrorist" is sub-human and deserves a horrible death regardless of the purpose of his terror. But you can get just as caught up in terms like "freedom fighter". The problem isn't with the terms, it's how they're being used. The people who say things like "one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter" in an effort to expose the hypocrisy of demanding a terrorist's execution in the name of freedom are usually the first to envoke moral equivalency and lampoon the United State's behavior as terrorism, thereby committing an equal hypocrisy.

The answer lies in the actual meaning of the words. A "freedom fighter" is someone who is fighting for the primary purpose of freedom. A "terrorist" is someone who is fighting for the primary purpose of invoking terror. It's not complicated. Osama Bin Laden is not someone who is fighting for freedom. He is fighting to inflict his own brand of facism and he does so through means of terror. It is certainly arguable that the United States is doing the same, but at the least one must recognize that the "fascism" the United States represents is a much lesser body of fascist doctrine.

The ANC in South Africa provides another good example. They were fighting against an oppressive regime and wished to impose a less oppressive regime. While certainly some of their actions merit the use of the word terror, the overall purpose of the movement was a greater measure of individual freedom for an oppressed population. The same does not hold true for Islamic radicals. Certainly one may argue that Arab populations are being actively oppressed, but one cannot get around the basic fact that these groups wish to impose more oppressive regimes, thereby making support for them self-defeating to anyone who holds freedom as a goal.

Stikingly intellegent! Thanks.

Pearl Jam and toast

ilana wrote:

if terorist perpitrate an act of war on your contry, a responsible government has the right and the responsibility, to fight back, plesant words do not deter terrorist, only saveer consiquenses will deter them.
wrong is a terorist atacking people, right is a contry defending its people
if some one attacked you personlly, what would you do? say oh no cant deffend my self must not use violence to fight violence???

It's kind of like the "War on Drugs" I believe.

Fighting this in the traditional way, whether it be arrested hundreds of thousands of people or killing tens of thousands of people, just makes things worse if anything. The 'war on drugs' has undeniably proved that's true, and the 'war on terror' is shaping up the same way.

Jesus says turn the other cheek (btw, i don't think we need to turn the other cheek, but violence is not the answer to our problems)

ilana

Pearl Jam and toast wrote:

It's kind of like the "War on Drugs" I believe.

Fighting this in the traditional way, whether it be arrested hundreds of thousands of people or killing tens of thousands of people, just makes things worse if anything. The 'war on drugs' has undeniably proved that's true, and the 'war on terror' is shaping up the same way.

Jesus says turn the other cheek (btw, i don't think we need to turn the other cheek, but violence is not the answer to our problems)

the enemy does not understand negotiations, or compromise, they only take notice of a show of strength, violence is all they understand
as for jesus, tell me were did he ever turn the other cheak

jeffbr

We should stand around in a circle holding hands singing Kumbaya. That'll teach 'em.

Did Zinn have any suggestions amidst his criticisms beyond suggesting the administration "rethink their policies?"

snekejam

As would be expected form Zinn and those who mindlessly regurgitate this horsecrap, a solution is nowhere to be found.

Anyone can sit back and point out mistakes and call people failures, especially when that person is not willing to offer other solutions.

I say we just pull out of Iraq and everywhere else in the world and tell everyone that we're really sorry and that we ask for their forgiveness. We then agree to blow up our nation so that we can help expedite their mission for them.

Just because Zinn can articulate his thoughts well doesn't mean his thoughts have any worth.

RockinInCanada

snekejam wrote:

As would be expected form Zinn and those who mindlessly regurgitate this horsecrap, a solution is nowhere to be found.

Anyone can sit back and point out mistakes and call people failures, especially when that person is not willing to offer other solutions.

I say we just pull out of Iraq and everywhere else in the world and tell everyone that we're really sorry and that we ask for their forgiveness. We then agree to blow up our nation so that we can help expedite their mission for them.

Just because Zinn can articulate his thoughts well doesn't mean his thoughts have any worth.

I think he pushes for diplomacy.....which can be done in many ways....foreign aid (instead of dollars for weapons), help institue social institutions in these coutries....reward countries for removing terrorist activity in their borders, remove embargo's in exchange for co-operation to remove terror cells...more like work hand-in-hand with problematic countries then going in and bombing and invetiabily create more people that hate you....now you tell me what has war accomplished....?

Because I am sick of those regurgitating crap about war is the only way to win the war on terror...funny you don't understand Zinn but you will believe that violence, in this scenerio, leads to peace?

snekejam

Rockin'InCanada wrote:

I think he pushes for diplomacy.....which can be done in many ways....foreign aid (instead of dollars for weapons), help institue social institutions in these coutries....reward countries for removing terrorist activity in their borders, remove embargo's in exchange for co-operation to remove terror cells...more like work hand-in-hand with problematic countries then going in and bombing and invetiabily create more people that hate you....now you tell me what has war accomplished....?

Because I am sick of those regurgitating crap about war is the only way to win the war on terror...funny you don't understand Zinn but you will believe that violence, in this scenerio, leads to peace?

do you really believe that countries that are run by individuals with strong ties to known terrorists groups are going to help us "institute social institutions", remove terrorist groups that they(the leaders of the country) support, and remove terrorist cells????

are you joking?

your ideas all sound very idealistic and euphoric, but would only work in countries that were run by leaders who were completely separate from the terrorists.

so do you suggest that instead of going into afghanistan and bombing their country, that we should have gone to the Taliban government and discussed ways to help remove Al Qaeda cells? You cannot be serious.

my2hands

snekejam wrote:

do you really believe that countries that are run by individuals with strong ties to known terrorists groups are going to help us "institute social institutions", remove terrorist groups that they(the leaders of the country) support, and remove terrorist cells????

are you joking?

your ideas all sound very idealistic and euphoric, but would only work in countries that were run by leaders who were completely separate from the terrorists.

so do you suggest that instead of going into afghanistan and bombing their country, that we should have gone to the Taliban government and discussed ways to help remove Al Qaeda cells? You cannot be serious.

these countrie you mention are our "closest allies and business partners"... saudi arabia and pakistan are examples

we have the mess that these guys wanted... it is all about profit and hegemonic control of natural resources...even a 5 year old can see this if you ask me?

my2hands

it is no shock to me that human beings cant wrap their mind around non-violent action... we have been taught that war is acceptable and even honorary in most circumstances... so your plan is to just keep killin gother members of our species in mass, to stop future killing

war is peace... it is one scary planet, with one fucked up species running it

snekejam

my2hands wrote:

it is no shock to me that human beings cant wrap their mind around non-violent action... we have been taught that war is acceptable and even honorary in most circumstances... so your plan is to just keep killin gother members of our species in mass, to stop future killing

war is peace... it is one scary planet, with one fucked up species running it

what in the world are you talking about?? it drives me crazy when i hear people say that war is wanted.

nobody wants war. nobody wants to send kids of to fight and die. nobody wants this.

nobody wanted terrorists to fly planes into buildings.

you are failing to recognize that, believe it or not, the U.S. would love to live in a world where war did not exist. the terrorists want the destruction of the west and the destruction of anyone who does not take Islam literally. they see murder as the only means to achieve their goal. nobody sees war as peace. war is seen as a means for eliminating people who will not allow others to make their own free decisions and live without fear, in this case the terrorists and dictators who suppress the people who live in their country.

we responded to an attack. if we were to have sat back and not done anything in Iraq and given Saddam another decade to work his magic, the U.S. government would have been chastised for not doing more.

acutejam

Imagine an iron house without windows, absolutely indestructible, with many people fast asleep inside who will soon die of suffocation. But you know since they will die in their sleep, they will not feel the pain of death. Now if you cry aloud to waken a few of the lighter sleepers, making those unfortunate few suffer the agony of irrevocable death, do you think you are doing them a good turn? But if a few awake, you can't say there is no hope of destroying the iron house.

-- Selected Short Stories of Lu Xun

Liberalism is a philosophy of consolation for Western civilization as it commits suicide.

-- James Burnham

farfromglorified

acutejam wrote:

Imagine an iron house without windows, absolutely indestructible, with many people fast asleep inside who will soon die of suffocation. But you know since they will die in their sleep, they will not feel the pain of death. Now if you cry aloud to waken a few of the lighter sleepers, making those unfortunate few suffer the agony of irrevocable death, do you think you are doing them a good turn? But if a few awake, you can't say there is no hope of destroying the iron house.

-- Selected Short Stories of Lu Xun

Umm...you already did say that: "absolutely indestructible".

Liberalism is a philosophy of consolation for Western civilization as it commits suicide.

-- James Burnham

That one I can get on board with, at least to a certain extent.

Milhouse VanHouten

snekejam wrote:

we responded to an attack. if we were to have sat back and not done anything in Iraq and given Saddam another decade to work his magic, the U.S. government would have been chastised for not doing more.

What attack are you referring to?

Your post makes it sound like our only options were to sit back and not do anything and to go to war. There were TONS of other options besides launching an invasion, and most of them wouldn't have resulted in the bloody clusterfuck we have over there now.

Pearl Jam and toast

ilana wrote:

the enemy does not understand negotiations, or compromise, they only take notice of a show of strength, violence is all they understand

as for jesus, tell me were did he ever turn the other cheak

Are you kidding?

That's practically Jesus's fucking catchphrase!

I can't tell you exactly where this lesson is taught, but i'm sure some of the religious people on the train can fill in that blank. Famous story dude.

As for the other part of your post all I can say is violence is not the answer. You want proof? Look at how the situation is going now and every other time we've used violence to solve our problems.

DCGARDEN

Solution to terrorism??? Please

Reason with people who's belief has them strapping bombs on their little sisters to blow up a bus full of children?

The only clear solution would've been to drop a couple of Nuclear Bombs on the entire Middle East - There I said it -

I would never wish such a thing and I'm glad that did'nt happen

The other alternative is to unleash the mightiest Military force known to man on the Middle East and try to change this crap from the top to the bottom

That is only how my eyes see it , at least

Pearl Jam and toast

DCGARDEN wrote:

Solution to terrorism???

The other alternative is to unleash the mightiest Military force known to man on the Middle East and try to change this crap from the top to the bottom

That is only how my eyes see it , at least

and how's that workin out for you?

DCGARDEN

Pearl Jam and toast wrote:

and how's that workin out for you?

Not great , but it does beat the alternative of having these fucks blow up our citizens thinking that all we'll do is lob some cruise missles from hundreds of miles away into un-attended huts in the middle of the night - that was the point

Pearl Jam and toast

DCGARDEN wrote:

Not great , but it does beat the alternative of having these fucks blow up our citizens thinking that all we'll do is lob some cruise missles from hundreds of miles away into un-attended huts in the middle of the night - that was the point

that's not an alternative. Our choices aren't 'ignore it' and 'go to war'. It isn't black and white.. that said, I don't think anyone is really sure what exactly to do about it. Esp. looking at the results, violence is the wrong answer in every way.

DCGARDEN

Pearl Jam and toast wrote:

that's not an alternative. Our choices aren't 'ignore it' and 'go to war'. It isn't black and white.. that said, I don't think anyone is really sure what exactly to do about it. Esp. looking at the results, violence is the wrong answer in every way.

I believe you are right about anyone not being really sure what to do about it

I believe you are wrong about violence being the definitive wrong answer

my2hands

DCGARDEN wrote:

Solution to terrorism??? Please

Reason with people who's belief has them strapping bombs on their little sisters to blow up a bus full of children?

The only clear solution would've been to drop a couple of Nuclear Bombs on the entire Middle East - There I said it -

I would never wish such a thing and I'm glad that did'nt happen

The other alternative is to unleash the mightiest Military force known to man on the Middle East and try to change this crap from the top to the bottom

That is only how my eyes see it , at least

that mentality is just fucking sad