The Final Debate Thread

cincybearcat · October 2008

polaris wrote:

what you consider meaningful change and what i may be is subject to our value system ... how is it not a subjective opinion?

Then, according to you, everything is subjective.

You can however give a framework for criteria and then apply it. But I guess you could do that with knowledge, worse friends as well...

So, I guess now that I;ve gone round and round, there are no facts, on subjective opinions based on criteria.

Speakers · October 2008

prytoj wrote:

Ayers is a self-admitted domestic terrorist. Obama is downplaying his associattion with him. Because...
People I know throw parties for me, in my honor, in their own home, all the time.
So, Obama either knew and lied, or didn't and is incompetent. which one is it?

You can't dispute Ayers in an america hater but further,
His own paster Wright "god d*** America"
His own wife "for the first time, I'm proud of my country"

This is an overall pattern that speaks to an overall environemnt of "ugly amerca" sentiment.

He is at best surrounded by an environment that expresses shame in America, and at worst an active part of that environment. I have no time for either.

You certainly cannot say that about McCain.

the corporate money, the media domination...connect the dots.
Look at the facts.

Um...where have you been?? Palin was found by a bi-partisan committee to have taken unethical action. FACT.

deal with it. Vote with your head. A McCain presidency would be a disaster.

cincybearcat · October 2008

inmytree wrote:

if he had not chosen Sarah "can't answer a simple question: Palin, age would not be a factor...

sorry to tell you, but his age is a real factor in this race. He won't release his health records, and I'm not sure if you know this, he is old...

Old based upon what? If he lives to 100 years old and is able to maintain his full faculties until then...he has almost 30 years left. What about another person that ends up dying at 55...does this mean they were actually old at 25?

Subjective opinion based on certain criteria.

saveuplife · October 2008

inmytree wrote:

if he had not chosen Sarah "can't answer a simple question: Palin, age would not be a factor...

sorry to tell you, but his age is a real factor in this race. He won't release his health records, and I'm not sure if you know this, he is old...

Let's face the facts. Race is also a "real" factor in this race. Obama's an African American.

And as has been mentioned on here quite a few times. There's a ton of ahole racist nuts in the world. One of these aholes could do something stupid to him and he also could die.

Trying to put the "he could die" crap out there is BS either way.

An Palin is much better looking than anyone on the Dem side.

faithful2you · October 2008

Speakers wrote:

Who won the debate is a current opinion. It isn't like the polls reflecting a potential fact (like who is going to vote for each guy) because that changes. And for the debate, opinion matters.

opinions are like assholes.....

Who does it matter too? People that can't make up their own decisions based on what they research on their own? But rather will vote based on what a musician or actor says? Everyone has their own reasons for who they vote for and just because my reason differ from the next guy doesn't make me right and him wrong.

prytoj · October 2008

saveuplife wrote:

Let's face the facts. Race is also a "real" factor in this race. Obama's an African American.

And as has been mentioned on here quite a few times. There's a ton of ahole racist nuts in the world. One of these aholes could do something stupid to him and he also could die.

Trying to put the "he could die" crap out there is BS either way.

An Palin is much better looking than anyone on the Dem side.

I don't necessarily buy that on just one side, what I see are quite a few folks tripping over themselves to vote to prove that "whitey's not racist".

There's giong to be some bigots, but they are a MINISCULE fraction of the voting public.

faithful2you · October 2008

saveuplife wrote:

Let's face the facts. Race is also a "real" factor in this race. Obama's an African American.

And as has been mentioned on here quite a few times. There's a ton of ahole racist nuts in the world. One of these aholes could do something stupid to him and he also could die.

Trying to put the "he could die" crap out there is BS either way.

An Palin is much better looking than anyone on the Dem side.

Correction, Obama is not "African American"

Kann · October 2008

cincybearcat wrote:

Old based upon what? If he lives to 100 years old and is able to maintain his full faculties until then...he has almost 30 years left. What about another person that ends up dying at 55...does this mean they were actually old at 25?

Subjective opinion based on certain criteria.

He his old based upond his own medical history :
A normal wma with normal markers is 75. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_life_expectancy)
He has a history of cancer, a history of pow, he has severe disabilities (yes not being able to lift your arms over your head is a severe disability). Knowing this you can suspect with some confidence that he may not finish his first term. It's a natural deduction based on statistics.
I even suspect this is the main reason why Obama ended up with the most financial support from corporate origins : who would want to invest in a candidate with limited chances to finish his first term and I won't even speak of a second one?

prytoj · October 2008

Speakers wrote:

Um...where have you been?? Palin was found by a bi-partisan committee to have taken unethical action. FACT. deal with it. Vote with your head. A McCain presidency would be a disaster.

oh yeah?

from the OFFICIAL finding, not some spin:

"I find that, although Walt Monegan's refusal to fire Trooper Michael Wooter was not the sole reason he was fired by Governor Sarah Palin, it was LIKELY a contributing factor to his termination as Commissioner of Public Safety. In spite of that, Governor Palin's firing of Commissioner Monegan was a PROPER and LAWFUL exercise of her constitutional and statutory authority to hire and fire executive branch department heads."

FACT, OFFICIAL RECORD, educate yourself with the official record, not the TV

The fact is, the guy was a piss-poor performer, and she was well withing her right to fire the guy. Wrong my patootee.
And again, the cop in question tazered her sisters SON.

You wanna protect kids or cops?

So, some perspective

Speakers · October 2008

faithful2you wrote:

opinions are like assholes.....

Who does it matter too? People that can't make up their own decisions based on what they research on their own? But rather will vote based on what a musician or actor says? Everyone has their own reasons for who they vote for and just because my reason differ from the next guy doesn't make me right and him wrong.

Kind of. Yeah, everybody has them but in this case people are choosing between three things (win, loss or tie). It matters because when you have a contest, it is important to know who did a better job. While there are very few concrete evaluative techniques to use in such a subjective debate, grasping the public's opinion of who won is important. Was it a tie? Was it a victory for McCain? Was it a victory for Obama?

Debates are contests and trying to get a sense of who "won" is fun and interesting and could potentially affect who is our next president. So simply the fact that people "think" Obama won is a victory for him. That is why opinions matter.

Speakers · October 2008

prytoj wrote:

oh yeah?

from the OFFICIAL finding, not some spin:

"I find that, although Walt Monegan's refusal to fire Trooper Michael Wooter was not the sole reason he was fired by Governor Sarah Palin, it was LIKELY a contributing factor to his termination as Commissioner of Public Safety. In spite of that, Governor Palin's firing of Commissioner Monegan was a PROPER and LAWFUL exercise of her constitutional and statutory authority to hire and fire executive branch department heads."

FACT, OFFICIAL RECORD, educate yourself with the official record, not the TV

The fact is, the guy was a piss-poor performer, and she was well withing her right to fire the guy. Wrong my patootee.
And again, the cop in question tazered her sisters SON.

You wanna protect kids or cops?

So, some perspective

You don't understand the difference between lawful and ethical?

Go figure that out and come back.

saveuplife · October 2008

faithful2you wrote:

Correction, Obama is not "African American"

Please tell me more...

prytoj · October 2008

Speakers wrote:

You don't understand the difference between lawful and ethical? Go figure that out and come back.

Look at the facts, take each point of view into account. weigh each argument euqally. apply the same standard. Look at the whole picture.

_ · October 2008

MattyJoe wrote:

You'll notice I said money that is RIGHTFULLY theirs. Money they earned illegally or unjustly is not rightfully theirs. That's for the courts to handle.

Yeah, I got that. You'll notice I said the money you're complaining about is not actually rightfully theirs. So if you're only talking about money that's rightfully theirs, I guess there's no problem then.

digster · October 2008

prytoj wrote:

oh yeah?

from the OFFICIAL finding, not some spin:

"I find that, although Walt Monegan's refusal to fire Trooper Michael Wooter was not the sole reason he was fired by Governor Sarah Palin, it was LIKELY a contributing factor to his termination as Commissioner of Public Safety. In spite of that, Governor Palin's firing of Commissioner Monegan was a PROPER and LAWFUL exercise of her constitutional and statutory authority to hire and fire executive branch department heads."

FACT, OFFICIAL RECORD, educate yourself with the official record, not the TV

The fact is, the guy was a piss-poor performer, and she was well withing her right to fire the guy. Wrong my patootee.
And again, the cop in question tazered her sisters SON.

You wanna protect kids or cops?

So, some perspective

From the report, verbatim...

Finding Number One
For the reasons explained in section IV of this report, I find that Governor Sarah Palin abused her power by violating Alaska Statute 39.52.110(a) of the Alaska Executive Branch Ethics Act. Alaska Statute 39.52.110(a) provides The legislature reaffirms that each public officer holds office as a public trust, and any effort to benefit a personal or financial interest through official action is a violation of that trust.

Finding Number Two
I find that, although Walt Monegan’s refusal to fire Trooper Michael Wooten was not the sole reason he was fired by Governor Sarah Palin, it was likely a contributing factor to his termination as Commissioner of Public Safety. In spite of that, Governor Palin’s firing of Commissioner Monegan was a proper and lawful exercise of her constitutional and statutory authority to hire and fire executive branch department heads.

Finding Number Three
Harbor Adjustment Service of Anchorage, and its owner Ms. Murleen Wilkes, handled Trooper Michael Wooten’s workers’ compensation claim property and in the normal course of business like any other claim processed by Harbor Adjustment Service and Ms. Wilkes. Further, Trooper Wooten received all the workers’ compensation benefits to which he was entitled.

Finding Number Four
The Attorney General’s office has failed to substantially comply with my August 6, 2008 written request to Governor Sarah Palin for information about the case in the form of emails.

It doesn't do your argument much good to cherry-pick the parts of the report that you want and then ignore the other three findings...for example in finding number one; "I find that Sarah Palin ABUSED HER POWER..." emphasis added. For someone who's telling us that us Obama zombies need to "look at the record", you didn't do a very good job at looking at the record yourself.

http://download2.legis.state.ak.us/DOWNLOAD.pdf

Go there to page 8 for the findings.

faithful2you · October 2008

saveuplife wrote:

Please tell me more...

Is his mom african-american?

inmytree · October 2008

cincybearcat wrote:

Old based upon what? If he lives to 100 years old and is able to maintain his full faculties until then...he has almost 30 years left. What about another person that ends up dying at 55...does this mean they were actually old at 25?

Subjective opinion based on certain criteria.

I stand corrected....I guess 72 is the new 52....:)

Gonzo1977 · October 2008

prytoj wrote:

Ayers is a self-admitted domestic terrorist. Obama is downplaying his associattion with him. Because...
People I know throw parties for me, in my honor, in their own home, all the time.
So, Obama either knew and lied, or didn't and is incompetent. which one is it?

You can't dispute Ayers in an america hater but further,
His own paster Wright "god d*** America"
His own wife "for the first time, I'm proud of my country"

This is an overall pattern that speaks to an overall environemnt of "ugly amerca" sentiment.

He is at best surrounded by an environment that expresses shame in America, and at worst an active part of that environment. I have no time for either.

You certainly cannot say that about McCain.

the corporate money, the media domination...connect the dots.
Look at the facts.

Way to turn the facts. You should go work for Karl Rove.

FACT: Obama did not launch his campaign in Ayers livingroom as suggested by the McCain camp. This encounter took place in 1995 when Ayers hosted a gathering at home in the Hyde Park section of Chicago a neighborhood in which the Obamas also lived. The event was not for Obama it was a fundrasier for then-State Senator Alice J. Palmer who INVITED Barack Obama in order to introduce him as her choice for the 1996 Democratic primary. McCains claims are historically and factually wrong. If you know anything about the Hyde Park section of Chicago you'd realize that the neighborhood consists of many Chicago Politicians, Community advocates, and University Staff. Is Obama at fault because he lives in the same Neighborhood as Ayers? Because he worked under a State Senator who happend to be holding a fundraiser? NO!!

FACT: Obama was president of the board of directors for the Chicago Annenberg Challenge which is a large education-related nonprofit organization that Ayers also belonged to. The boards platform was to disburse grants to schools and raise money for schools and provide private matching fund. Both men attended some board meetings as the education program started. I don't know if you belong to a School Board or have ever belonged to a Parent Teacher Association but sometimes you serve on the same comitees as people who may or may not have a criminal record. Does this associate you with them? does this make you a Terrorist? or a someone associated with crime or Terroism? NO.

FACT: Obama and Ayers were also members of the Woods Fund of Chicago, an anti-poverty foundation the group was made up of 9 community members and and met four times a year for a half-day, mostly to approve grants to schools. Again. Does this make Obama a terrorist? Does it make him evil because he once again happend to be on the same board as someone who engaged in illegal activites 40 YEARS AGO!!! NO!!!!

You can go on and on and list every encounter Obama has had with Ayers but the fact remains simple. Ayers has nothing to do with the Obama campaign. Obama has never had anything to do with the Weather Underground nor has he ever promoted or engaged in terroist activities.

I mean how many times has John McCain been in the same room as unfavorable charactors with a shady past? I'm sure over the course of his 30 years in Politics McCain has had numerous associates, and encounters with people with shady pasts. Keating....for one...but I digress.

This is such a non issue and it's bordering on insanity. This is just a textbook Karl Rove tactic meant to smear Obama and push the actual issues of this election;which John McCain avoids like the plauge to the shadows.

McCain fell victim to these very same tactics in 2000 and now because he's on the other end...It's all of a sudden justified.

What a bunch of bullshit.

inmytree · October 2008

saveuplife wrote:

Let's face the facts. Race is also a "real" factor in this race. Obama's an African American.

And as has been mentioned on here quite a few times. There's a ton of ahole racist nuts in the world. One of these aholes could do something stupid to him and he also could die.

Trying to put the "he could die" crap out there is BS either way.

An Palin is much better looking than anyone on the Dem side.

you say it's BS...I disagree...

Palin is a scary nut...she can't answer a simple question...and I'm serious when I say this...if it came down to Palin or GWB as president....I'd support GWB...

I'm serious...

prytoj · October 2008

oh yeah?, is this what you're talking about?:

Finding Number One
For the reasons explained in section IV of this report, I find that Governor Sarah Palin abused her power by violating Alaska Statute 39.52.110(a) of the Alaska Executive Branch Ethics Act. Alaska Statute 39.52.110(a) provides The legislature reaffirms that each public officer holds office as a public trust, and any effort to benefit a personal or financial interest through official action is a violation of that trust.

So here's the code:

Sec. 39.52.110. Scope of code; prohibition of unethical conduct.

(a) The legislature reaffirms that each public officer holds office as a public trust, and any effort to benefit a personal or financial interest through official action is a violation of that trust. In addition, the legislature finds that, so long as it does not interfere with the full and faithful discharge of an officer's public duties and responsibilities, this chapter does not prevent an officer from following other independent pursuits. The legislature further recognizes that

(1) in a representative democracy, the representatives are drawn from society and, therefore, cannot and should not be without personal and financial interests in the decisions and policies of government;

(2) people who serve as public officers retain their rights to interests of a personal or financial nature; and

(3) standards of ethical conduct for members of the executive branch need to distinguish between those minor and inconsequential conflicts that are unavoidable in a free society, and those conflicts of interests that are substantial and material.

(b) Unethical conduct is prohibited, but there is no substantial impropriety if, as to a specific matter, a public officer's

(1) personal or financial interest in the matter is insignificant, or of a type that is possessed generally by the public or a large class of persons to which the public officer belongs; or

(2) action or influence would have insignificant or conjectural effect on the matter.

(c) The attorney general, designated supervisors, hearing officers, and the personnel board must be guided by this section when issuing opinions and reaching decisions.

(d) Stock or other ownership interest in a business is presumed insignificant if the value of the stock or other ownership interest, including an option to purchase an ownership interest, is less than $5,000.

Basically, I could have bounced a check, or flicked a cigarette butt out my window, and be violating this exremenly broad and subjective legislation.

Paaaleeease. Get your nephew trazered by a cop and get back to me.

The Final Debate Thread

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