I Can't Wait For Government Run Health-Care!!!

slightofjeff

decides2dream wrote:

slightofjeff wrote:

Byrnzie wrote:

What a great attitude to have. Why not just say 'Fuck the poor'?

I just wish there was a middle ground between "Fuck the poor" and "Fuck the rest of us."

christ....THERE IS!
again, in all these other countries with UHC, you think they all are 'getting fucked'......? seriously?
you PAY for healthcare now thru payroll deductions, your employer pays.....instead it goes to UHC thru tax....same fuckin' thing, you're not anymore fucked than right now! difference is.....EVERYone will have healthcare, for LIFE. wouldn't that be nice? and holy shit, it isn't just the poor, or the unemployed.....it's even middle class working people who happen to have jobs that offer no benefits, and there are many....and/or these same people who have children with serious and expensive illlnesses, or illnesses themselves. once more, preventative care Is the best option overall, far cheaper too in the long run...so it's in OUR OWN best interest to provide healthcare to all our citizens.


i just think of a company like mcdonalds.....most of their staff is part-time, therefore they don't have to insure them. even amongst those who work 'full-time' there are ways of designating staff so one does not have to offer healthcare. this is an extremely profitable business. why should they not pay towards the well-being of americans, especially since they make their profits off of things that are not so good for americans? sorry, i do believe they can cut into their vast profit margin just a wee bit, and cough up some dough towards healthcare. all other companies that already offer payment towards healthcare, it's easy, just transfer it towards healthcare tax. and again, the BIGGEST cost-saver is getting ride of the FOR PROFIT nature of the health industry. currently at the end of the day....after the actual medical costs, the medical staff pay, admin pay, etc, etc......there is a PROFIT...and BIG dollars, simply going into some company, some stock, someone's pocket.....out of our healthcare dollars. that is unnecessary. i personally do not believe profit should be built into our healthcare. service for all should be built into our healthcare. that's not fucked, that's just right.




jlew...i don't care if it's being FORCED. i am forced to pay taxes that go towards a war.....i am FINE with being FORCED to pay towards HEALTHCARE. makes sense to me. and when i say it's 'simple'...obviously, i don't mean figuring it all out....just that yes, simple, it CAN be done. you keep referring to other countries being smaller, us bigger, therefore...can't be done. wrong. THAt part is 'simple' to figure out. more people = more taxes = more funds for healthcare. it IS that simple.


and you're right, we DO disagree. i also happen to think you are under a serious illusion if you think you have 'more choices' under a private, for profit model. you ARE limited to plans your employer offers, you are limited in those plans of what doctors/hospitals/etc you may utilize, and they too can say no to certain treatments and such...so where is all this freedom? beyond that, say you lose your job tomorrow and have difficulty landing another....lose your insurance in the interim...and then have a catastrophic accident? it DOES happen you know. then yea...what freedom....you can spend half your life in debt. great freedom. i far rther a UHC system that guarantees care, at all stages of employement and life, for all. THAT's true freedom in healthcare to me. so damn straight, we disagree........




btw - you keep talking of these 'trillions of dollars'......well get RIDOF PROFIT, and how much can be SAVED right there? seriously! you are looking towards one model to see the failur of another. wrong. it would be a DIFFERENT model. costs will CHANGE. you're right tho.....the main, fundamental difference is....you simply prefer the private , for profit sector....why i seriously can't understand...whereas i would far prefer government involvement, not-for-profit, healthcare for all. if you simply argued THAt point, while we'd still disagree....at least i'd understand. instead you keep saying it' can't be done! impossible! meanwhile, that is FALSE.

All I care about is the bottom line. And here is the bottom line. If the government enacts its health care program tomorrow, I ended up paying the same (or more) for an inferior product.

That is how "the rest of us" are getting fucked.

slightofjeff

catefrances wrote:

slightofjeff wrote:

Byrnzie wrote:

What a great attitude to have. Why not just say 'Fuck the poor'?

I just wish there was a middle ground between "Fuck the poor" and "Fuck the rest of us."

there is. its called socialism. us and the poor are the same people. if you dont get that then youre doomed.

I'm afraid you might be right. If the train keeps going down this same track, we are all going to be the same. Poor.

Instead of lifting the poor to the level of "the rest of us," we'd rather bring the "rest of us" down to the level of the poor. Out of some warped sense of fairness, I suppose.

inmytree

oh the horror...everyone having healthcare...it's a damn crime that I would be fucked like that...

those poor fuckers with no money to pay for healthcare will be leeching off me...I say screw 'em...we can't have socialism like this....I say we do away with road and bridge maintenance, too...It costs way too much...I am sick to death of my taxes going to roads and bridges...why the hell should I pay for others...???

VINNY GOOMBA

decides2dream wrote:

VINNY GOOMBA wrote:

If the government wants to provide health care, we should have the choice of whether or not to partake in that system-- the same goes for social security, and dare I say it, even delivery of our mail.

Those who believe the government will do its job better than the private sector, more power to you. Let them and every other compete in trying to serve us. We will all win. What has to happen before anything else, is that major companies in the private sector and the government have to sever their relationships. We need real choices, not a be-all and end all system, which is what we have now, and will have under a universal system.

Stay healthy!

may i ask...what DO you think the government should do?
should there be public education? road maintanence? police? fire and safety? what exactly? in my mind, the government is here to serve the people. serving the people also includes basic services for life...such as safety, travel access, education and healthcare. i don't even have children, and yet 65% of my property taxes go towards public schools. while i think the cost is excessive, especially given i don't have children - i do think it should be pro-rated to some degree, but i digress - point is, as a anation, i think education is vastly important and therefore i am happy to support public schools so that ALL have access to education. i feel the same should hold true for healthcare. 'choice' would still be there.....just like there is for private schools. but yes, i think the tax burdens for it should still remain. as a collective society we have to work towards our greater good, not simply the good of ourselves, individually. i mean, let's face it.....we want garbage collectors, a police force, we want someone to do the menial jobs we don't want to do....well they too deserve at the very least, access to education and healthcare.


damn straight tho.....stay healthy!




holy shiut!
yet AGAIN...i had posted a response to jlew....and it didn't %$#&^*! post! :evil:
it's a conspiracy i tell ya. uuuugggghhhhh. eh well, fuck it....lucky you jlew. i am far too lazy to retype it. damn board. anyhoo, whatever. my points stand, as do yours. we disagree. simple as.

On a federal level - defense. Emphasis on DEFENSE, not offense. Anything else they want to dabble in should be paid for by the people who want it from them ONLY, and should be provided at the state level. This is consistent with what you and everyone else have been telling JLew -- that providing for more people isn't a big deal, and it should work on a slide-rule. Taxes should consistent with the number of people that actually expect that service. Whatever it costs, the people pay it. No profit involved, if that is at all possible with the government (which it could be if it doesn't form no-bid partnerships with their buddies).

Now imagine this-- "buying" your healthcare from different states in the union. You live in New York, but want to buy Montana's plan... why not? You live in Connecticut, have an Arkansas plan, and fall down while visiting your aunt in California and break your leg... You're paying into Arkansas regardless, let them pick up the tab-- we have the technology!

Couple that with private insurance companies who are now forced to compete against the states, how much are their costs going to come down?

Choices is where it's at.

As for everything else-- police, fire, roads, all work pretty well when localized. I'm not against the government serving the people especially at local and state levels where the people have SOME control over in how these institutions operate. I'm against the Federal government getting involved in much of this stuff. It's Unconstitutional for a reason-- it was so the states could do their thing as they see fit.

decides2dream

sleightofjeff wrote:

All I care about is the bottom line. And here is the bottom line. If the government enacts its health care program tomorrow, I ended up paying the same (or more) for an inferior product.

That is how "the rest of us" are getting fucked.

and once again, that is QUITE the ASSUMPTION. it is not an out-and-out probability, merely a possibility...and one i personally do not think will be the case for many, many reasons already listed/discussed. biggest point here is, we just DON'T KNOW......so yea, enough with the doomsday predictions. it Is possible to do, and do well.


anyhooo...i'm out. it was a great discussion with those who actually wanted to discuss, and not just say 'this is how it is, or this is how it will be.' right now, it's all about the possibilities....and i for one am HOPEFUL that we will start making the right choices, for the overall good and benefit of the entirety of the nation. i see it as win-win for everyone, if done right....and we can do it. now, hopefully, we WILL.




vinny, while i hear ya.....we just have very different perspectives on it all.
btw - you seemed to leave out education in all of it.


man, this board is fucked lately....so many issues posting....ggggggggrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr.......... :evil:
and yea, i do NOT need to know that someone else posted in the interim every damn time i try and post!

slightofjeff

inmytree wrote:

oh the horror...everyone having healthcare...it's a damn crime that I would be fucked like that...

those poor fuckers with no money to pay for healthcare will be leeching off me...I say screw 'em...we can't have socialism like this....I say we do away with road and bridge maintenance, too...It costs way too much...I am sick to death of my taxes going to roads and bridges...why the hell should I pay for others...???

I think you've completely missed the entire point of this discussion. Good going!

I don't think anyone here is againt the notion of everyone having health care. But there are serious questions as to how to get that accomplished.

It's not as easy as just snapping your fingers and, presto, everybody has quality health care. It doesn't work that way.

inmytree

slightofjeff wrote:

inmytree wrote:

oh the horror...everyone having healthcare...it's a damn crime that I would be fucked like that...

those poor fuckers with no money to pay for healthcare will be leeching off me...I say screw 'em...we can't have socialism like this....I say we do away with road and bridge maintenance, too...It costs way too much...I am sick to death of my taxes going to roads and bridges...why the hell should I pay for others...???

I think you've completely missed the entire point of this discussion. Good going!

I don't think anyone here is againt the notion of everyone having health care. But there are serious questions as to how to get that accomplished.

It's not as easy as just snapping your fingers and, presto, everybody has quality health care. It doesn't work that way.

what are you talking about...? you're the person upset with the Medicaid and admit private insurance is not the answer...you brought up being fucked if UHC happens....I'm just going along with you and others saying it can't happen...I'm just building on the "it's socialism" argument....I'm just supporting the "why should I pay for others" argument...

So I got to thinking....roads and bridges maintenance is socialism...and the product is inferior...so, I just applied the reasons to not seek UHC to roads and bridges...what's not to get...?

KDH12

jlew24asu wrote:

KDH12 wrote:

I haven't read this whole thing but two observations......

1- People that do not want UHC, have no other suggestions on what to do and it is ignorant to think that there is nothing wrong with the system we have now. Like others have said there is not reason why there should be uninsured people in THIS the most powerful country in the world. So please offer suggestion and tell us your ideal insurance that will not leave working individuals without insurance.... yes working, most of the uninsured work...

2- Stop saying it is impossible, that is the dumbest excuse I have ever heard. If that is the case then you probably think reducing dependence on foreign oil is impossible, or improving the nations public schools is impossible, or going to the moon is impossible..... oh wait...... so many advancements have been made in the last 50-75 years that that to say fixing our health care is impossible is just lazy

all you have done is call people stupid and ignorant who don't agree with you. well done.

and yes, I think UHC is impossible and unaffordable. the problem with you people is that you think FREE healthcare actually means its FREE. yet its anything but.

heres a question for you...should illegal aliens qualify for this free healthcare?

yes people are ignorant, oh yeah and it is simple minded to think that it is impossible

yes people here should get healthcare until we fix the immigration policy a different debate, and BTW that has nothing to do with this conversation


show me where I said anything about free, that is putting words in my mouth, I am not foolish enough to think that anything in life is free :roll:

KDH12

I can not keep up with you guys....

I have to work in order to keep my insurance....

I will say that privatized insurance is not the answer, but I am bias, because I do not believe in privatization for essentials that we all need (ie healthcare, electricity.... etc)

call me a socialist or an idiot or whatever but when it is for profit people get fucked

slightofjeff

inmytree wrote:

slightofjeff wrote:

inmytree wrote:

oh the horror...everyone having healthcare...it's a damn crime that I would be fucked like that...

those poor fuckers with no money to pay for healthcare will be leeching off me...I say screw 'em...we can't have socialism like this....I say we do away with road and bridge maintenance, too...It costs way too much...I am sick to death of my taxes going to roads and bridges...why the hell should I pay for others...???

I think you've completely missed the entire point of this discussion. Good going!

I don't think anyone here is againt the notion of everyone having health care. But there are serious questions as to how to get that accomplished.

It's not as easy as just snapping your fingers and, presto, everybody has quality health care. It doesn't work that way.

what are you talking about...? you're the person upset with the Medicaid and admit private insurance is not the answer...you brought up being fucked if UHC happens....I'm just going along with you and others saying it can't happen...I'm just building on the "it's socialism" argument....I'm just supporting the "why should I pay for others" argument...

So I got to thinking....roads and bridges maintenance is socialism...and the product is inferior...so, I just applied the reasons to not seek UHC to roads and bridges...what's not to get...?

I'm not so much UPSET with Medicaid as I am using it as an example as to what happens when the government gets involved with health care. This is not going to be good.

Private insurance IS the answer for some 260 million of us. In order to insure the other 44 million or whatever the number is, we need to come up with a system that doesn't screw over the other 260 million of us.

I have yet to see such a plan proposed. I'm not even sure what such a plan would entail. I would be happy to hear it.

But those of us who are skeptical of the government's ability to get something of this magnitude accomplished in any kind of acceptable manner aren't heartless bastards. We're just realists who recognize a government's limits.

jlew24asu

KDH12 wrote:

I can not keep up with you guys....

I have to work in order to keep my insurance....

I will say that privatized insurance is not the answer, but I am bias, because I do not believe in privatization for essentials that we all need (ie healthcare, electricity.... etc)

call me a socialist or an idiot or whatever but when it is for profit people get fucked

talk about ignorance. wow. "for profit" doesnt mean people get fucked. profit is an excellent motivator...it brings innovation..it brings much needed technological advances. status quo socialism does not. like slight said, it beings everyone down to an equal level. which isn't an improvement. its a step backwards.

slightofjeff

jlew24asu wrote:

KDH12 wrote:

I can not keep up with you guys....

I have to work in order to keep my insurance....

I will say that privatized insurance is not the answer, but I am bias, because I do not believe in privatization for essentials that we all need (ie healthcare, electricity.... etc)

call me a socialist or an idiot or whatever but when it is for profit people get fucked

talk about ignorance. wow. "for profit" doesnt mean people get fucked. profit is an excellent motivator...it brings innovation..it brings much needed technological advances. status quo socialism does not. like slight said, it beings everyone down to an equal level. which isn't an improvement. its a step backwards.

If all doctors are now essentially government workers, and make civil servant's salaries, what is the financial impetus to become a doctor?

Take out several hundred thousand dollars in student loans, spend six years in medical school ... and then make 30K a year? No thanks.

We're going to see a shortage of doctors. Or, at least, a shortage of good ones.

inmytree

slightofjeff wrote:

jlew24asu wrote:

KDH12 wrote:

I can not keep up with you guys....

I have to work in order to keep my insurance....

I will say that privatized insurance is not the answer, but I am bias, because I do not believe in privatization for essentials that we all need (ie healthcare, electricity.... etc)

call me a socialist or an idiot or whatever but when it is for profit people get fucked

talk about ignorance. wow. "for profit" doesnt mean people get fucked. profit is an excellent motivator...it brings innovation..it brings much needed technological advances. status quo socialism does not. like slight said, it beings everyone down to an equal level. which isn't an improvement. its a step backwards.

If all doctors are now essentially government workers, and make civil servant's salaries, what is the financial impetus to become a doctor?

Take out several hundred thousand dollars in student loans, spend six years in medical school ... and then make 30K a year? No thanks.

We're going to see a shortage of doctors. Or, at least, a shortage of good ones.

you act as if gov't employees are simpletons...

I find it sad that, for some, the only motivator in life is money and profit...

inmytree

slightofjeff wrote:

I'm not so much UPSET with Medicaid as I am using it as an example as to what happens when the government gets involved with health care. This is not going to be good.

Private insurance IS the answer for some 260 million of us. In order to insure the other 44 million or whatever the number is, we need to come up with a system that doesn't screw over the other 260 million of us.

I have yet to see such a plan proposed. I'm not even sure what such a plan would entail. I would be happy to hear it.

But those of us who are skeptical of the government's ability to get something of this magnitude accomplished in any kind of acceptable manner aren't heartless bastards. We're just realists who recognize a government's limits.

I guess private insurance companies never deny a claim...they are perfect, right...? no offense, but to take one example and apply it to all really doesn't make sense to me....

VINNY GOOMBA

decides2dream wrote:

sleightofjeff wrote:

All I care about is the bottom line. And here is the bottom line. If the government enacts its health care program tomorrow, I ended up paying the same (or more) for an inferior product.

That is how "the rest of us" are getting fucked.

and once again, that is QUITE the ASSUMPTION. it is not an out-and-out probability, merely a possibility...and one i personally do not think will be the case for many, many reasons already listed/discussed. biggest point here is, we just DON'T KNOW......so yea, enough with the doomsday predictions. it Is possible to do, and do well.


anyhooo...i'm out. it was a great discussion with those who actually wanted to discuss, and not just say 'this is how it is, or this is how it will be.' right now, it's all about the possibilities....and i for one am HOPEFUL that we will start making the right choices, for the overall good and benefit of the entirety of the nation. i see it as win-win for everyone, if done right....and we can do it. now, hopefully, we WILL.




vinny, while i hear ya.....we just have very different perspectives on it all.
btw - you seemed to leave out education in all of it.


man, this board is fucked lately....so many issues posting....ggggggggrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr.......... :evil:
and yea, i do NOT need to know that someone else posted in the interim every damn time i try and post!

I forgot to mention education... Eliminate the Department of Ed. What good are they? None. The states have their own standards as is. As far as public education, it's an option, but is it a cheaper option? Who knows!? The lottery in my criminal state is supposed to pay for education, and with the billions it raises a year, why am I still paying $10,000 in school and property taxes to live on less than half an acre?

Nonetheless, the sticker price on Private Schools are probably higher. But at least there's options here. This is what I want. I'm not against public schooling, aside from the fact that everything they teach you in history and social studies has a very statist agenda.

decides2dream

slightofjeff wrote:

jlew24asu wrote:

KDH12 wrote:

I can not keep up with you guys....

I have to work in order to keep my insurance....

I will say that privatized insurance is not the answer, but I am bias, because I do not believe in privatization for essentials that we all need (ie healthcare, electricity.... etc)

call me a socialist or an idiot or whatever but when it is for profit people get fucked

talk about ignorance. wow. "for profit" doesnt mean people get fucked. profit is an excellent motivator...it brings innovation..it brings much needed technological advances. status quo socialism does not. like slight said, it beings everyone down to an equal level. which isn't an improvement. its a step backwards.

If all doctors are now essentially government workers, and make civil servant's salaries, what is the financial impetus to become a doctor?

Take out several hundred thousand dollars in student loans, spend six years in medical school ... and then make 30K a year? No thanks.

We're going to see a shortage of doctors. Or, at least, a shortage of good ones.

alrighty, i said i'm out...but seriously...i had to address this. who has ever even suggested THIS? um, senators, congressmen, and yea...the president...all are 'government workers'...and i believe they all make pretty good salaries. oh, and they get healthcare for life, go figure. someone from france chimed in MUCH earlier and said docotrs there are still pretty well-off, rich by standards...so no one is saying to take away the doctors incentive to become doctors.

yes, i am oversimplifying v/c of course there is more to it...but really, here we go:
firstly, there are MANY w/o insurance simply b/c they cannot afford it ALL on their own. they could afford some of it, like most of us who contribute to an employer's plan while the employer picks up the rest of the tab....but not all employers offer health insurance. so then, with UHC, these people can afford, and will contribute to healthcare tax. many employers (tho not all, obviously some small businesses will need exemptions) but overall, most employers who currently do not offer health insurance to the bulk of their employees.....now they will make a contribution towards UHC thru tax. yes, it will cut into their profits, but yes...i believe they should all contribute to the health of americans since they are profiting from americans, making their profits - which they still will make - from being here. then there's the vast rest of us, who already pay in to health insurance, as do our employers.....so let's start adding:


people currently uncovered but employed, now will contribute to healthcare = more $$$ for UHC
(most) employers who currently don't offer coverage to all employees, now will contribute towards healthcare = more $$$ for UHC
all employees currently paying towards health insurance = same contribution towards UHC
employers currently paying towards health insurance for their employees = same contribution towards UHC

now, add in a few other BIG things:

NO MORE PROFIT.....probably save billions a year....as healthcare is simply for the health of citizens, not for stockholders to earn dividends = more $$$ towards UHC
overall streamlining of health care = lower costs, overall = more $$$ for UHC
more people receiving PREVENTATIVE healthcare which is proven to be far most cost effective, means less costly disease, less $$$ spent = more $$$ for UHC


as to the 'argument' that without profit there is no innovation....i disagree. firstly, a VAST amount of current medical research, both here and abroad, is done by the GOVERNMENT. government sponsored research. a HUGE amount of grants are offered, annually. so yea....we already pay for a lot of it. secondly, the ACTUAL innovators, you know...the doctors and scientists who do the RESEARCH......still getting paid, so where do they lose their motivation? whether the govt pays em or some big corp, they're still going to be innovative and research. the only one who 'loses' is the big corp making a profit for their stockholders.

so again, none of this automatically points to higher costs...if anything, lesser......and it certainly does not point to lesser care for all. we ALREADY pay in towards the healthcare of others to some degree. yes, it is a flawed system, but it is also the old model, and working within, overall, a for profit model. if we CHANGE the model, develop a NEw model.....it can be done.

jlew24asu

inmytree wrote:

you act as if gov't employees are simpletons...

um, no. but he makes a very valid point, one that you dont seem to understand.

inmytree wrote:

I find it sad that, for some, the only motivator in life is money and profit...

sad but true. and its not the ONLY motivator, but it sure is a damn good one. Doctors become Doctors to help people AND for the high pay. there is a reason Doctors aren't paid minimum wage.

decides2dream

VINNY GOOMBA wrote:

I forgot to mention education... Eliminate the Department of Ed. What good are they? None. The states have their own standards as is. As far as public education, it's an option, but is it a cheaper option? Who knows!? The lottery in my criminal state is supposed to pay for education, and with the billions it raises a year, why am I still paying $10,000 in school and property taxes to live on less than half an acre?

Nonetheless, the sticker price on Private Schools are probably higher. But at least there's options here. This is what I want. I'm not against public schooling, aside from the fact that everything they teach you in history and social studies has a very statist agenda.

well thereya go. i AM saying, we already have public and private ed....we can have the same with healthcare. in many other countries, private healthcare still does exist. point is tho, all contribute via taxes towards public health, as we all do for education right now....and it is their choice if they still want to go and get private healthcare, just as right now parents can still choose to send their kids to private school. that's my point.


and your taxes for education sound strikingly similar to my situation too. and overall....i agree, and while a related topic....not the topic. :P only point being, i still think that i a BETTER system, b/c at least ALL citizens have access to education. that's all i want to see with healthcare.

it's scary to think that you can work....and not afford healthcare b/c you happen to have an employer who does NOT offer it. or, conversely, you work and work, have healthcare....but lose your job unexpectedly, have a major health crisis, and yea...you're fucked. b/c now you have mountains of healthcare debt to pay off. or, you work and work and work thruout your life...reach retirement.....still get dsome health coverage from your former employer, but as fees change on a yearly basis, you may well not have enough $$$ to afford your share of premiums, etc, etc. too many seem to think UHC is all about protecting and supporting the slackers and the lazy....whereas the reality is, protecting most who are very much like you and me.

inmytree

jlew24asu wrote:

inmytree wrote:

you act as if gov't employees are simpletons...

um, no. but he makes a very valid point, one that you dont seem to understand.

inmytree wrote:

I find it sad that, for some, the only motivator in life is money and profit...

sad but true. and its not the ONLY motivator, but it sure is a damn good one. Doctors become Doctors to help people AND for the high pay. there is a reason Doctors aren't paid minimum wage.

again with the dickishness...not surprising...yeah, I said it and don't care...and yes, I understand, I see your money grubbing ass doesn't....

I guess for me, if my doctor only gives a fuck about money and doesn't have my best interest at heart, I'll find a new doctor...I see you don't think highly of those in the helping profession...again, no surprise there...

decides2dream

inmytree wrote:

jlew24asu wrote:

inmytree wrote:

you act as if gov't employees are simpletons...

um, no. but he makes a very valid point, one that you dont seem to understand.

inmytree wrote:

I find it sad that, for some, the only motivator in life is money and profit...

sad but true. and its not the ONLY motivator, but it sure is a damn good one. Doctors become Doctors to help people AND for the high pay. there is a reason Doctors aren't paid minimum wage.

again with the dickishness...not surprising...yeah, I said it and don't care...and yes, I understand, I see your money grubbing ass doesn't....

I guess for me, if my doctor only gives a fuck about money and doesn't have my best interest at heart, I'll find a new doctor...I see you don't think highly of those in the helping profession...again, no surprise there...

it's a moot point in any case, b/c NO one suggested doctors get paid 'civil service salaries'...and nor would they. being a doctor would still be a high-paying career choice. mention all this above...^^^ it's not about the actual doctors, nurses, etc...not making a good living.......it's about cutting out the big corps who's stockholders make the profits off of healthcare. THERE's the real savings, not at the expense of those educated and dedicated to healthcare.