Obama blocks release of detainee abuse photos
musicismylife78
Posts: 6,116
Smooth move. The similarities between bush and obama and every other loon and nut who has ever occupied 1600 pennsylvania ave, is pretty striking. Both promote fighting of two wars which are enormously unpopular. Both are essentially clueless as to how society should be run.
Yeah, thats the answer to 8 years of secrecy and back room deals...more backroom deals and more secrecy.
Right on!
Yeah, thats the answer to 8 years of secrecy and back room deals...more backroom deals and more secrecy.
Right on!
Post edited by Unknown User on
0
Comments
plus obama is trying to improve our image oversees and I think photos being printed in every paper in the world would do more damage then good at a time when we do not need it
Why do you think there is secrecy going on? If you really knew what was going on you would probaably change your tune. Just like Mr. Obama did. You got to realize the world ain't all rainbows and butterflies. You might think the American Government is bad but rest assure we are not as bad as you think we are.
98 CAA
00 Virginia Beach;Camden I; Jones Beach III
05 Borgata Night I; Wachovia Center
06 Letterman Show; Webcast (guy in blue shirt), Camden I; DC
08 Camden I; Camden II; DC
09 Phillie III
10 MSG II
13 Wrigley Field
16 Phillie II
We all know what happened. And to be honest, those men have suffered enough... no need to publish naked pictures of them covered in shit and being stacked on each other.
I do feel like the pictures should be made public but I honestly wonder if it'll do more harm than good.
http://www.reverbnation.com/brianzilm
Yeah I forgot, it was another country not ours that started these two needless and immoral wars, a country that is ignorant, excessive, and militaristic to the hilt.
The answer is obvious as to why he wont release them. As news has proven in the past few weeks, Dems, including Pelosi were briefed on detainee abuse, and knew it was going on, and did nothing. The dems are just as responsible for the war and the insanity of it all, as Bush is. Thats why The Dems will never enact any criminal proceedings against Bush. They would have to then, explain, why they voted lock step in with Bush and whenever increased Iraq spending came on the table, they voted with a resounding yes.
These photos need to be seen. Just as the famous Vietnam photos of that girl getting napalmed and that man getting shot in the head needed to be seen. They show the truth and horror of war. I think sadly, there are still those who believe war is scary but is a noble cause. That our troops are helping out. been to the movie theater lately? Seen that ridiculous Pro-military commercial with Kid Rock on it? Or the one with 3 doors down? War isnt like that. Nor should it be viewed that way.
Obama's reasoning is insane. he suggested those who engaged in torture had already been punished, when some of the first pictures of abu gharib came out in 2004. To believe that, we have to hold dear to the idea that torture ended in 2004, and that abu gharib was an anomoly. That a few mid level soldiers, were acting of their own accord, and humiliated detainees in iraq. And that when that came to light, those responsible were punished, and the practice of such torture ended. I am cynical in general, but come on people, you really believe everyone who has tortured iraqis has been punished? You dont think their actions deserve to be made public so they can be brought to justice, and punished?
I live in a world, apparently on my own, where if you are a criminal, you are punished. This can relate to iraq or it can relate to politics in general.
The photos deserve to be shown, just as the photos of coffins coming back from iraq deserve to be seen. They are a hell of alot more important than photos of the latest celebrity photos on TMZ, and their stories deserve telling.
The war in iraq has been more hidden, in my view than any other war in history. Sure their have been high profile scandals, Abu Gharib, Haditha, but the true horror and terror of what occurs in Iraq has been largely hidden and not talked about and not seen. For a war thats more unpopular than Vietnam ever was, it boggles the mind as to why this is.
The photos would spark outrage and get people more actively involved with bringing this kind of thing to an end. A picture says 1000 words and really brings the issue home most of the time. We all know the horrific photos taken during Vietnam are the ones that haunt us to this day and remain forever scarred into our memory. It's time you guys quit excusing everything Obama does does just to cheer on your team and your man. Wrong is wrong and the photos do not need to be swept under the rug....their ugliness needs to be exposed for all to see and judge. So many Americans don't bother to read shit other than the headlines. These pictures are guaranteed to get attention and spark even more of an outcry on this issue....and that is sorely needed.
halszka123@op.pl
I, like, many others want us to get the f out of Irak and Afghanistan...I don't think releasing these photos now would help that goal as they would inflame anti-American sentiment at a time when the US is trying to repair it's image that was tarnished by bushy and company....
There is no reason why those pics should be made public. The only thing it would do is cause more tension throughout the world.
I think he made the right decision.
http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/t ... .html#more
Thinking Again About Those Photos - And Obama's Rope-A-Dope Ways
My immediate shock that Obama would be willing to suppress evidence of prisoner abuse, torture and even murder - stunningly widespread in the Bush-led military - somewhat distracted me from the politics of this. That is often a mistake with Obama who both takes his own responsibilities as commander-in-chief seriously and always appears to be playing a longer game than his opponents.
But this is a blog, written in real time, so allow me some secondary thoughts after a night to sleep on it. In the cold light of morning, it doesn't seem quite so offensive. In fact, the rope-a-dope this time might be on us.
The critical point of releasing the photos is that they will help break through to the American public just how endemic the abuse and torture of prisoners under Bush was. It was everywhere, in every field of combat, committed by every part of the armed services, and in identical fashion: no blood no foul, along the lines of the torture and abuse techniques specifically authorized by Bush. Bush and Cheney and Rumsfeld sent a very clear message that spread throughout the entire military and CIA: terrorists are beneath even baseline Geneva protections, any prisoner might be a terrorist, so do to them what you will. Rewards will go to those who secure "intelligence" regardless of how it's gotten. Freeze them, beat them, starve them, shackle them, heat them, strip them, destroy them. As an email sent to all military interrogators in Iraq put it, "The gloves are coming off gentlemen regarding these detainees. Col. Boltz"—Colonel Steven Boltz, the deputy MI commander in Iraq—"has made it clear that we want these individuals broken."
And so they broke them. The point of the photos is not to demonstrate more gore; it is to have a fresh opening to explain to Americans just how widespread this was, and also to remind them that this led to the deaths of scores. But against this important public interest, the president has another duty - to his soldiers in the line of fire. These soldiers deserve a chance to do their astonishingly difficult job without inflaming those who might be inspired to kill and attack them. I see no reason to suspect that Obama is not genuine about this question, and it's a fair factor to consider. More importantly, he has not said that suppressing the photos at this time means suppressing them for ever, and has not indicated that he will prevent justice being done. In fact, his statement said the opposite.
The pro-torture right will say this call is obvious. It isn't. It's very hard. When you have inherited a policy of war crimes, and you are still fighting a war, balancing accountability with responsibility is tough. I think, having made our point, we should cut the man some slack on this. What matters is holding those who destroyed America's moral standing responsible. That is a struggle for patriots to engage, a Truth Commission to study, and the attorney-general to pursue, while allowing the president to do his job as commander-in-chief.
I will note this too about the politics. If Obama wants to get the truth out, and does not want to be slimed as a partisan avenger (the propaganda line from the Rovians), it helps him to have symbolic spats with those of us who believe we have no choice but to confront the war crimes of the last administration. This has long been his mojo: give symbolic gifts to your opponents while retaining the core issue. These gestures - Rick Warren dinner with Bill Kristol, summits with Cantor - help insulate him from being drawn into them kind of partisan fight the Rove right likes to fight. In this rope, in other words, the anti-torture movement is the current dope.
Fine. Rope-A-Dope us. But let us not let the responsible parties get away with torture, abuse and murder. And let us play a smart and relentless long game as well.
I think its a propaganda move, aimed at US citizens.
the entire war on terror might be re-evaluated if average americans were to see these photos.
now everyone can go on about the business of supporting this "just war" with no annoying facts clouding that judgement.
these photos will do nothing more then put our soldiers at greater risk as well as anger more people in the middle east. maybe even to the point of plotting new attacks us. what these photos wouldn't do is change anything the American public already feels about the war in Afghanistan or about torture. Obama has already changed that policy, its done.
the war in Afghanistan is a "just war"...we were attacked from people training and planning in that country. the war was brought to us, we still have to do everything we can to prevent it from happening again. strategy does have to change, however, but pulling everyone out and publicly apologizing to the Taliban isnt one of them.
People, young kids and innocent bystanders are shot in the streets of Chicago everyday, do think if photos of dead bodies in the streets would stop the violence and bring communities together? NO
The problems and solutions are much deeper then just putting out some photos, besides I do not trust the media enough to be responsible with them.
I dont know you, and have accused you in the past of not asking about information about me, and just assuming.
Be that as it may, are you a soldier? Do you have family members in the military? To be blunt, who is the war "just" to? Certainly not iraqi or afghani citizens who have had bombs and bullets litter their homes and lives for the past 8 years.
And the war certainly isnt just to the soldiers fighting it. They have been forced to go to iraq or afghanistan, come back home, then go back etc... Many have gone and come back 4 or 5 times. That is wrong. Flat out wrong. No one deserves that. No one. Its hell on the soldiers, physically and emotionally, and of course hard on the families as well.
As I have said, this being a PJ message board I had thought, there would be people opposed to war, and their are a few Commy, abook, and drifting, and me. But beyond that, people on here seem to swallow hook line and sinker every line, every president speaks.
I see no honor or just cause or moral ideal present in sending soldiers my age to their deaths, and I certainly see no honor in forgetting about them when they come home, left to dwell in their own private PTSD hells, in squalor and in solitude. I see no honor in sending soldiers my age to die in a foreign land, in an immoral and illegal war, then when these soldiers think they are home free, back home with family and friends, they get called back up, and are sent off to the killing fields yet again...
There never is a good war, ever. Except maybe the war to overturn civilization and end war, to end this insane and illogical idea that anything can be accomplished by sending troops armed with guns and bombs, searching for "terrorists".
Fine, lets track down the Taliban, but what do they look like? Isnt the Taliban or the insurgency now the civilian population of Iraq and Afghanistan? Where do you draw the line? The war has to end some time, and when exactly will that timeline and deadline be met?
Its like trying to end racism. That to me is a good idea. A worthy cause. But how does one accomplish such a feat? Do you bomb and murder all the white supremacists? Say we were able to identify and murder all the major white supremacists in America, would racism end that day? Would we be rid of racism forever?
The Taliban didnt kill 3,000 people for no reason. They had a reason, however much mainstream america disagrees with such a message. They were and have been entirely clear about what they wanted and what they want. My thinking, I know its outrageous folks, is to listen to what they have to say! How absurd!
The war on terrorism is as misguided as every other "war" that has ever been fought. The war on drugs. on poverty, on communism. You simply cant end any of those with guns and bombs, but thats exactly what mainstream society thinks will end it.
no I'm not in the military but have some family involved. the military is NOT forced to do anything. they are serving our country by choice. you seem to not understand that concept...at all.
and lets try and keep the two wars separate, they are not the same. Iraq isnt even a war anymore, its a nation building mission. Afghanistan is what I'm referring to when I say a just war. The war was brought to OUR shores...we didn't start the Afghanistan War.
how old r u? my guess is 18? you probably dont even remember 9/11 being so young. America was attacked so we went to Afghanistan to protect our country from that happening again. Iraq is different. going there was wrong on many levels but thats completely different that the Afgan war. I'm willing to bet we'd agree on Iraq.
I absolutely agree with you. but sadly, we live in a cruel world. name me one time in history (of the world, not US) where that hasn't been a war being fought. war is horrible. I wish it never happens, but it does, and I'm afraid always will.
with this attitude the Nazis would still be around. the questions you pose are good ones. see my thread about what to do with the Taliban. your solution is to leave and send an apology note. which only leads me to believe you haven't the slightest clue as to who the Taliban are or what fundamentalist Islam is. I'll agree a new strategy is needed, but leaving and letting the Taliban and extremist have free reign is not the answer.
ok, how do you propose we deal with the Taliban and fundamentalist Islam? you probably shouldnt answer that until you know a little bit about them. its clear that you dont
My point is neither of us is serving. You arent and I am not. I always find it interesting those who are so gung ho and pro war never serve. If you feel its such a just war, why didnt you sign up after 9/11? Why arent you down at the induction center as we speak, trying get on the next troop flight to afghanistan? Frankly its hypocrisy at its best, and your posts seem to reek to high heaven of it.
I am 25, and I do remember 9/11. I remember being antiwar. I remember being in antiwar demonstrations after 9/11. I remember even the peaceniks of old, the old hippies, those who had protested vietnam, putting flags in their windows post 9/11. And I remember not understanding that. I still dont. And I remember an english teacher forcing me to stand during the pledge of alligience, this sometime in 2001-2003.
I dont believe in war. I dont believe its right to send troops to another country and bomb innocent people. I just dont. Obviously you operate under a different set of values.
Soldiers may choose to sign up for iraq or afghanistan, as its an all volunteer army, but they sure as HELL dont sign up to be forced to go back to iraq and afghanistan. Thats something YOU seem to have a hard time understanding jlew. These soldiers arent serving one tour and then coming home. Its 3 or 4 tours, 5 tours. And thats obviously a unspeakable and disturbing experience.
So my point is this: your for the war. Great. Sign up. Enlist. Its easy to be for war when you arent fighting it. If its such a just cause, quit your job, sell the home and enlist. Simple stuff jlew.
I live my principles. I always have and always will. I dont talk one way then act another. I am antiwar, and conduct my life as such.
Actually I do know about the Taliban. I read Al Jazzera. I have read their statements. To know about them, you need to know their message. And friend, they had a message, and it certainly wasnt "we hate your freedom".
Ultimately, it comes down to, the question, "if you could shoot and kill Bin Laden and all the Taliban, but would end up also killing innocent civilians with that bomb, would you go ahead". For me, the answer is no, because who are we to decide who is to be killed and who isnt.
Was the death of 140,000 and 80,000 in hiroshima and nagasaki acceptable in order to end the war and stop the Japanese? My answer will always be no. Your answer obviously would be yes.
To understand the mindset of Bin laden or the Taliban you have to understand what Madeline Albright, the Secretary of State under Clinton said. Were the sanctions against Iraq that resulted in 500,000 iraqis dying, worth the cost? Yes she said.
So according to Albright, the death of Iraqis are meaningless.
Gee I wonder why insurgents are blowing up our troops?
And its the same war Jlew! Bush never differenciated between Iraq and Afghanistan. It was the same war to him. Its all an effort to end terrorism.
Dont you understand, by bombing them, we are just like them! Bombs and bullets never bring peace.
Vietnam is a counterexample that proves you wrong. The tv news footage of fighting in vietnam, the photos of the girl being napalmed, the vietnam man being shot, the photo of the dead kent state protester, all contributed to the public souring on vietnam.
Just look at what the photo of Michael Phelps did in a way more benign example.
Pictures are powerful. Sure, seeing some photos, wont magically bring the troops home, but I do think it only helps.
How do you know that?
I do know that the bombing and bullets that have reigned on them for 8 plus years hasnt done anything to stop people from hating america and hasnt ended terrorism. What makes you think continuing a war, a war lets be clear that you are unwilling to fight in, will end terrorism? Man up and enlist friend. Or else, help us to bring those troops home, to be around loved ones, where they belong!
that may be the best analogy regarding the war on terror i've seen.
you have to end the motivation for it in the first place, the cause of it, something you can't do with bullets and bombs and jets and tanks.
Terrorism is an idea. Its a scattered group of groups, a word that describes anything from violent religious fundamentalism to a guerilla fighters resisting occupation.
not the same thing at all. not even close.
musicismylife78 solution doesn't not involve violence, it does not mean its not effective. probably more effective.
If I was asked to serve I would. I wouldnt run and hide like you. I can support our troops and government for protecting us while not running and signing up for the military. I have a career and family to take care of. and I am not a hypocrite, and I suggest you stop with the insults.
we were attacked on 9/11. what dont you understand about that? I feel sorry if you were ever attacked personally, you are very weak.
I understand just fine. trust me. they know whats involved when serving during war time. 3-5 tours is NO surprise to anyone.
like I said, if I was asked to serve I would. and I am not "for the war". I am for my government protecting me. that is their job.
what happens if someone brings war to you? for example, I walk up to you and punch you in the face, throw you to the ground, and beat to crap out of you. what do you do? protest?
would you kill 1 to save 100 or let the 100 die to save 1 ?
like I said, we both agree the Iraq was is wrong..moving on...
I dont give a fuck what Bush says. Bush isnt in office anymore and the wars are not the same. Iraq isnt even a war, its nation building.
I'm talking about the Taliban. they are a group, not an idea. as for terrorism, I dont think military is the only answer by any means.
Same old same old.
So you do not understand why people came together after the tragedy? Why were you forced to stand up during the pledge of allegience? Are you that anti-war that you are anti-america? Why do you still live here if this place is so messed up? I question things but that is what is great about this country I call home. I can question what our government does and not get in trouble for it.
98 CAA
00 Virginia Beach;Camden I; Jones Beach III
05 Borgata Night I; Wachovia Center
06 Letterman Show; Webcast (guy in blue shirt), Camden I; DC
08 Camden I; Camden II; DC
09 Phillie III
10 MSG II
13 Wrigley Field
16 Phillie II
I can understand people coming together but will never support a country or military or government that values money and bombs over human life.
Would you, given the chance also ask these questions of Ed and the band? Or are you to weak and snot nosed, that you hid behind a computer and call me an antiamerican, but when push comes to shove, you dont put the petal to the metal.
By the way, did you serve? Are you enlisted? And if not why?
I see no reason why those who support the war on this board, shouldnt be at the induction center as we speak.
If you feel the war is just, fine, put your money where you mouth is and man up!
I can understand people coming together but will never support a country or military or government that values money and bombs over human life.
Would you, given the chance also ask these questions of Ed and the band? Or are you to weak and snot nosed, that you hid behind a computer and call me an antiamerican, but when push comes to shove, you dont put the petal to the metal.
By the way, did you serve? Are you enlisted? And if not why?
I see no reason why those who support the war on this board, shouldnt be at the induction center as we speak.
If you feel the war is just, fine, put your money where you mouth is and man up![/quote]
Man up I have seen more of Iraq then you can imagine. you call me weak and snot nosed where do you live. I'll knock on your door with my boots and call you anti-american. I don't say shit to Ed and the band, well becasue they are not in the white pages for me to look up and talk to. Why don't you walk a mile in my shoes before you pass judgement you ignorant POS.
98 CAA
00 Virginia Beach;Camden I; Jones Beach III
05 Borgata Night I; Wachovia Center
06 Letterman Show; Webcast (guy in blue shirt), Camden I; DC
08 Camden I; Camden II; DC
09 Phillie III
10 MSG II
13 Wrigley Field
16 Phillie II