What should be done about the Taliban?
jlew24asu
Posts: 10,118
They seem to be gaining strength in Afghanistan and Pakistan. hundreds of thousands of people are being displaced in Pakistan and they try to take over the country.....and nuclear country. how should the world respond to them? should they have a seat at the world table?
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I'd like to see them take a seat at your table. Now that would be a hoot! Fallafel or hot dog Sir?
i would say that any country that wishes to have a seat at the world table must sign a convention that by law requires each country to abide by a set charter of human rights ... failure to do so - would mean expulsion ...
ok, well its obvious they have no interest in human rights, so a seat at the table should never be considered IMO. but I agree what is going on now isnt working...can they be defeated with force? I dont know, maybe?
Such a convention already exists. It's called the United Nations.
they can easily be defeated by force but the problem is establishing a legitimate democratic process and government there ... unfortunately, by arbitrarily installing a leader that had very little support from the general population did not work well - he know has to enlist the support of a warlord in order to try and win the next election ... throw in interests outside the country which would like to see the continuation of the cluster fuck and you get a quagmire
I dont know about that..defeating them by force is extremely difficult given the geography of the area for one. for two, the Taliban can easily blend in and never be noticed. they look no different then innocent civilians tending a farm. and the "tribal" areas on afgan/pakistan? forget about it. thats an areas no one can get to. even with the largest military in the world, I'd bet we couldnt just march in there and fight. the terrain just isnt set up for that. no tanks, few vehicles, and fighting an enemy that dresses and mixes with the civilian population, makes fighting a head to head war nearly impossible.
I'm starting to think and intellectual war needs to be fought and needs to start from within. I think the only way they will be defeated is when a Muslim, brave enough to speak out against the teachings of the Taliban, steps forward.
oh ... you'll never win those kind of wars - i meant in terms of removing them from power ... that was relatively easily done ...
at this stage - i would say your best bet is to bring in the UN ... currently NATO is handling this i believe and they just aren't the right countries ... a true UN peacekeeping force with a 5 year plan to hold true democratic elections and transition program should be established ... obviously easier said than done ... i think american presence is making matters worse in that foreign interests now want to pump money into the resistance there for the sake of keeping americans militarily involved ...
o ok, yea, thats easy.
ok, well how can true democratic elections and transition program be established if the Taliban have a firm grip on the people through fear. a NATO "peacekeeping" force has no chance against the Taliban.
very good point ... i am only speculating as i'm not exactly sure what's going on there but i would suspect that the taliban still need to be funded ... i think a withdrawal of US forces would make it less likely that groups like al qaeda would want to put money there ... granted they need a base of operations so i dunno - maybe start with the major centres and then move outward from there ... if the democratic process can be made to work in those places - it will be much harder for the taliban to gain a grip ...
taliban got hundreds of millions from poppy sales last year. its whay they are still around, maybe the biggest reason.
the warlords are kicking back percentages from the farmers to the taliban.
so get rid of that.
Buy all of the poppy form the farmers direct.
use it for painkillers. free painkillers for those that need em.
its probably cheaper than funding a war AND no one has to die, innocent or otherwise.
You ask a good question. A question that is difficult to answer.
I believe the way NOT to deal with the Taliban is exactly the way we have dealt with them. We had an opportunity in 2001/2002 by convincing the rest of the world that the host Taliban and their al Qaeda tenants pose a real threat to global security. That the combination of a fundamentalist government coupled with a militant fundamentalist wing was a combination that has proven than no one was beyond their reach.
It worked, initially. That is why there were Canadian troops, German troops and Russian troops in Afghanistan in 2002.
But, our arrogance and the hard-on Bush/Cheney/Rumsfeld had for Hussein dissuaded the world. Those whom had held some dissent for our past foriegn policy decisions, felt we didn't deserve such violence towards our citizens. That arrogance transformed mild dissent (that had turned to empathy after the September 11, 2001 attacks), to utter contempt. From we didn't deserve that level of violence to Maybe, we DESERVED it.
And funneling billions of U.S. tax payer dollars, weapons and military intelligence to a nuclear capable Pakistani government, who came to power in a military coup d'etat... and whose Inter-Services Intelligence actually set up the Taliban in Afghanistan in the first place... didn't help, either.
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Okay... can't worry about the past... I've heard that all before. What do we do NOW?
Well, we accept the fact that we are reaping the harvest we have sown, for a start. We understand that the tasks we face today has been compounded by our poor decisions and our actions of the past. It's called, 'Responsibility'.
We claim the responsibility for our past actions and try to re-commit our efforts. We go back and try to rebuild our relationships with our European allies, our NATO partners, the moderate Arab states and the rest of the world that we have allowed this festering wound to grow into full blown gangrene. Argue the point that a fundamentalist government with a militant fundamentalist wing... that can become nuclear capable... is one of the greatest threats the entire world will face.
Treat them as a global player? Give them a seat at the table? No. Treat them for what they are... a threat to global security that has to be contained. Can we get rid of them militarily? Probably not. They have grown to a point where they cannot be destroyed and now, can only hoped to be contained.
I believe that Pakistan must also be held responsible. They should allow the Taliban to set up an independent state in the tribal region and yield that Pakistani land to them. Let them govern by 2000 year old Shria law and watch them like a hawk.
See what happens from there. That's about the best we can hope for... in my opinion.
Hail, Hail!!!
you say this they shouldn't have a seat at the table yet say this..
They should allow the Taliban to set up an independent state in the tribal region and yield that Pakistani land to them. Let them govern by 2000 year old Shria law and watch them like a hawk...
that troubles me. Shria Law is brutal and suppressive and bound to spread like a virus. i'm not sure if allowing them their own state is such a good idea.
makes me wonder....are there moderate voices within the tribal regions?
Don't get me wrong, I don't like the idea of spending any more then we already have, or just giving money blindly to them, but this is how it works, its the reality of it, we have to except it. Slugging it out with them and playing cat and mouse in the mountains isn't going to work, and neither is a total withdraw and a hug.
As to fix any problem....it always boils down to one thing.....$$$....forget anything else. You can say what you like, but it points to it in the end, like it or not.
The taliban tends to kill all the moderate voices off...
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London, Wembley, 18 June 2007
London, O2, 18 August 2009
London, Hammersmith Apollo (Ed solo), 31 July 2012
Milton Keynes Bowl, 11 July 2014
yea I know, thats why I'm wondering if any actually exist.
I actually think the moderates in the global muslim community should be the ones to do something about this. Muslims are obviously good at mobilising themselves behind a cause, such as Palestine, so why can't the moderates do more to speak out against the taliban?
Personally, I believe there's a climate of fear and confusion within muslim communities. The problem is that the taliban represent a really fundamentalist wahabi(?) type of Islam which, in my opinion, makes many general muslims feel like they are not being "muslim enough" if they don't agree with them.
In my opinion, this is why you see a lot more hijabs etc on the streets. I never saw any before 9/11 and now they are a lot more common, even amongst young teenage girls. (When I was a teenager and went to a mostly asian girls' school, we all thought it was completely "uncool" or "square" to be seen in asian dress outside of asian events, both amongst my hindu and muslim friends). Muslims say it's a woman's choice to wear it but I expect there is a lot of expectations too in the community to wear them.
And these muslims with radical or hardline attitudes are found in muslim diasporas everywhere, not just in pakistan. They are all over the internet too! So their communities are ruled by an iron grip of fundie-style thinking which is held by ordinary muslims everywhere (usually by the men I expect). This is probably why it takes a lot of nerve and strength for moderates to speak out, and probably why many don't.
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London, Brixton, 14 July 1993
London, Wembley, 1996
London, Wembley, 18 June 2007
London, O2, 18 August 2009
London, Hammersmith Apollo (Ed solo), 31 July 2012
Milton Keynes Bowl, 11 July 2014
A seat at the table with 'reasonable' governments... governments that can openly negoitate, compromise and make concessions. The problem with fundamentalists are they are fundamentalist and don't want to hear anything other than what they believe. Taliban can not be open based solely on that one fact. An independent state that they govern with their laws that we can contain may be the only way to deal with them in the short term. Long term changes are unforeseeable.
Yes, Shria Law is brutal to our culture, but not to theirs. Afghanistan STILL has enforced laws on their books that makes converting out of Islam a capital offense. Even WITH a 'Democracy' we created. We gave them the tools to choose... they chose to keep laws like that on their books. We cannot change their culture, militarily. That has to evolve from within their world and we cannot expect them to adhere to our way of life by force. Imagine an armed Westboro Baptist Church the size of the Taliban within our borders... different religion, same mindset. There is a big difference between the German culture and the culture that thrives on religious fundamentalism. Nationalism and Religious Fundametalism are two very different creatures.
As for Shria law spreading... I don't see it. It is oppressive and brutal and people will not want it if it is forced down their throats.
Pakistan created the Taliban... Pakistan has to be responsible for them. It is a difficult problem that we have compounded by our neglect. Our hands are not clean in this matter, we also share in the responsibility.
Hail, Hail!!!
and with Shara law, there certainly is some aspects that are widely accepted by them but not us. but I'm talking about the basic human rights that are completely ignored in Sharia Law. that is not accepted by anyone expect the leaders of the taliban.
what does this have to do with the Taliban?
I have no worries or concerns about Pakistan being a nuclear country, their weapons will not fall into the wrongs hands.
I'm more concerned about the people of Afghanistan for the betterment of the country food and medicine would do them better than the fighting happening there now. More troops won't be the answer, people can't eat troops and wounds can't heal without medicine. This more than anything else will help bring this country back, the Taliban will not be eradicated, haven't the US learned anything after what happened with the Russians in Afghanistan?
HOWARD ZINN: We ought to stop thinking that we must have military solutions to the problems that we face in the world. The solutions that we need are the solutions of dealing with sickness and disease and hunger. That’s fundamental. If you want to end terrorism you have to stop being terrorists, which is what war is.
Peace
*MUSIC IS the expression of EMOTION.....and that POLITICS IS merely the DECOY of PERCEPTION*
.....song_Music & Politics....Michael Franti
*The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite INSANE*....Nikola Tesla(a man who shaped our world of electricity with his futuristic inventions)
how in the world are you so sure about this? would you be concerned if the Taliban took over the country? or say a poitical party or person who is sympathetic to them?
I'm all for new solutions to this problem but its obvious you dont know much about the Taliban. they are a militant group. they dont negotiate. giving Afgans food and medicine makes me all warm and fuzzy inside but whats the point of doing that when the Taliban are in control?
Ask... and ye shall receive:
http://www.time.com/time/world/article/ ... 69,00.html
excerpt
"Abdul Rahman and others like him still face the possibility of being charged with apostasy for converting out of Islam, an offense that carries a penalty of death unless they renounce their new faith. While Afghanistan's constitution embraces international human rights conventions that guarantee freedom of worship, it also codifies the role of Islamic Sharia law — under which Abdul Rahman was charged."
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You can change the leaders... but, you ain't gonna change the peoples... unless the peoples wants to change.. y'noe?
Hail, Hail!!!
One reason why I'm sure about this is the Taliban won't take over Pakistan because then they'll be fighting two wars just like the US and we haven't faired so well in either wars. In the US case we're supposed to be a superpower and we don't have control of either country, troops and civilians are still being killed in both country.
Glad you appear to be happy inside about the civilians having some food and some medicine but maybe then they can be strong enough to rise up against the Taliban.
Peace
*MUSIC IS the expression of EMOTION.....and that POLITICS IS merely the DECOY of PERCEPTION*
.....song_Music & Politics....Michael Franti
*The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite INSANE*....Nikola Tesla(a man who shaped our world of electricity with his futuristic inventions)
ok fine, maybe not the Taliban per say, but what about political elements who sympathize to their cause? to say you are not concerned about a country as volatile as Pakistan is alarming
but getting the food and medicine to areas controlled by the Taliban is impossible...so what you say can not happen.
I, personally, feel that the scariest thing about the Taliban and Pakistan is how much support the people of Pakistan give to the Taliban. I'm don't know. But, from what I've learned about them, it is a bit unnerving.
Think about it... who do you think they distrust more... the Taliban... or us? And keep in mind, the most popular name for new born males, according to an L.A. Times report I read in 2004 or 2005, was Usama. The Taliban, even being fundamentalist, is Islamic... Americans are mostly Christian. Pakistan is closer in culture, language, customs, proximity and religion to the Taliban, than they are to the U.S. Given the right to choose their leaders, if a great number of people hate or distrust us... it is more than likely they will choose a leader who hates and distrusts us.
And we only seem to relate to Pakistan in terms of their leadership... Musharef (who overthrew an elected government by military force) as 'Our ally in the War On Terror'. As we funneled billions of tax dollars and weapons to the Musharef regime to 'Fight Terrorists', we were building their ability to wage war. For all we know, the Generals may have wanted Bin Laden captured, but lower elements on the military, the privates, sargeants, etc... that were doing the actual work, looking for him, may have well been turning a blind eye to his whereabouts.
We need to stop thinking in the perspective from an America-centric point of view and try to understand the complexities of other countries. The thinking that if everyone has a job and is earning a paycheck to buy shit makes them happy, like we are.
The Taliban mindset may become nuclear capable without firing a shot.
Hail, Hail!!!
I agree with your post and this statement is very true and worrisome. not to mention the Mardrasas that dominate the education system. those are nothing but fundamentalist factories. thats why I cant understand why qp isnt concerned