So you wouldn't call the Columbus day parades a celebration?
What do they do then? Just walk along looking miserable and uninterested? Why don't you try being honest for once instead of just being obnoxious?
what a joke of a thread. seriously, no one in America gives a flying fuck about Columbus day. its just another day to have a random day off (for some). and besides, its only symbolically "celebrated" not because Columbus discovered America but because Columbus initiated widespread contact between Europeans and indigenous Americans. glad we cleared that up.
i would definitely agree with you ... no one cares - similar to how no one cares what the gov't decides to do with the people who enlist in the armed forces or what they do with their tax dollars in overseas occupations ... north americans (put north in there so i don't get the typical defensive posts from americans) are in general pretty apathethic about everything ...
having said that - having columbus day as a holiday speaks volumes as to what americans think about invastions and exploitation - they just dont' know it
wow..."volumes", oh the drama...
For the record, State Employees in NC don't get the day off. We get Veterans Day in November.
Seriously, there are all kinds of holiday's on the calender...in fact May 16th is Armed Forces Day...I guess it's a day to celebrate wars and death, right...? May 23rd is World Turtle Day...I think it's a damn shame there is no parade...
I hope you don't celebrate Remembrance Day in Canada...that's a bad thing, right...
For the record, State Employees in NC don't get the day off. We get Veterans Day in November.
Seriously, there are all kinds of holiday's on the calender...in fact May 16th is Armed Forces Day...I guess it's a day to celebrate wars and death, right...? May 23rd is World Turtle Day...I think it's a damn shame there is no parade...
I hope you don't celebrate Remembrance Day in Canada...that's a bad thing, right...
if americans really cared - iraq would never have been allowed to happen ... if you think remembrance day is the same as columbus day - i would have to humbly disagree ...
For the record, State Employees in NC don't get the day off. We get Veterans Day in November.
Seriously, there are all kinds of holiday's on the calender...in fact May 16th is Armed Forces Day...I guess it's a day to celebrate wars and death, right...? May 23rd is World Turtle Day...I think it's a damn shame there is no parade...
I hope you don't celebrate Remembrance Day in Canada...that's a bad thing, right...
LOL I know, it really speaks volumes!
and its too bad you live where you do. World Turtle Day has a parade and concert every year in the middle of downtown Chicago. you're really missin out man
For the record, State Employees in NC don't get the day off. We get Veterans Day in November.
Seriously, there are all kinds of holiday's on the calender...in fact May 16th is Armed Forces Day...I guess it's a day to celebrate wars and death, right...? May 23rd is World Turtle Day...I think it's a damn shame there is no parade...
I hope you don't celebrate Remembrance Day in Canada...that's a bad thing, right...
if americans really cared - iraq would never have been allowed to happen ... if you think remembrance day is the same as columbus day - i would have to humbly disagree ...
you're right...we don't care... :?
as for remembrance day, you're celebrating/remembering those who died is war...well, if you really cared, those wars would have never happened...
if americans really cared - iraq would never have been allowed to happen ...
that is such crap. many Americans supported the Iraq war back in 2003...obviously based on false information but by then it was too late. and as it was known, the anti movement was huge...arguably partly the reason why democrats took over Congress and eventually the Presidency.
For the record, State Employees in NC don't get the day off. We get Veterans Day in November.
Seriously, there are all kinds of holiday's on the calender...in fact May 16th is Armed Forces Day...I guess it's a day to celebrate wars and death, right...? May 23rd is World Turtle Day...I think it's a damn shame there is no parade...
I hope you don't celebrate Remembrance Day in Canada...that's a bad thing, right...
if americans really cared - iraq would never have been allowed to happen ... if you think remembrance day is the same as columbus day - i would have to humbly disagree ...
you're right...we don't care... :?
as for remembrance day, you're celebrating/remembering those who died is war...well, if you really cared, those wars would have never happened...
we are by no means perfect in canada - but i do know that we have not engaged in your cia funded proxy wars or occupied any country nor have we paid to have democratically elected leaders deposed ... again - if you think remembering those that fought against hitler's germany is the same as celebrating the genocide of native americans - i will again humbly disagree ...
did you or did you not make this thread to try and make Americans look stupid by saying we celebrate a person who did not discover America?
Not guilty.
Edit: I was watching a documentary on the history of the English language - 'The Adventure of English' - and it touched on the Vikings journeys across the North Atlantic. It got me to thinking about the whole Columbus issue and if and how it effects it as far as Americans are concerned. That's all.
if americans really cared - iraq would never have been allowed to happen ...
that is such crap. many Americans supported the Iraq war back in 2003...obviously based on false information but by then it was too late. and as it was known, the anti movement was huge...arguably partly the reason why democrats took over Congress and eventually the Presidency.
well ... choose stupidity or apathy - it's up to you ... there is a reason why the REST of the world did not join in that war ... the anti-war people showed that the information was false well before the invasion and occupation ... the anti-war movement failed - if it was remotely successful, bush would never have been "re-elected" ... the democrats are largely in office because this economic downturn happened under W's watch ...
Well actually, the Asians who walked across the Bering land bridge about 15,000 years ago discovered America. They stayed, but for some reason practiced isolationism and did not spread the news of their discovery back to the "Old World."
Then the Norse stopped by for a visit. Hung around a while....decided that this "new found land" was not to their liking and left. Being the good European neighbors that they were, they did not spread the news about their adventures across the sea.
So then, this here Columbus fellow attempts to make a bee-line for India. He encounters a number of large islands where there supposed to be dragons....apparently there was a whole damn continent in his way towards India. His Spanish overlords decide that this new continent would be good for the royal treasury, so they stay. Then just about every major European power follows suit. This was a "New World" because any knowledge of what the Norsemen discovered once upon a time was lost during the Dark Ages, buried deep in an Abbey or never recorded. The same goes for any Irish or Basque fishermen adventures to the "New World" that predated Columbus. So for many a generation, Columbus was the only KNOWN discover of America.
As our knowledge and scientific methods grow and improve, we discover more of what was hidden from our sight. Some now believe that the Chinese ventured to the west coast of present-day California prior to Columbus's journeys. There is also now evidence that the Polynesians visited South America before 1492. Of course if you are a Mormon, part of your belief system is that one of the tribes of Israel migrated to the Americas way before Columbus.
All the world will be your enemy, Prince with a thousand enemies, and whenever they catch you, they will kill you. But first they must catch you, digger, listener, runner, prince with the swift warning. Be cunning and full of tricks and your people shall never be destroyed.
we are by no means perfect in canada - but i do know that we have not engaged in your cia funded proxy wars or occupied any country nor have we paid to have democratically elected leaders deposed ... again - if you think remembering those that fought against hitler's germany is the same as celebrating the genocide of native americans - i will again humbly disagree ...
you present as if I have the power to call up the CIA and tell them what to do...will I understand you're point, it's just a silly one...I suppose I should be upset at my parents of birthing my in the US...I guess all Americans are bad people based on some actions and choices made by our gov't....sadly, the best I can do is vote and contact my elected representative when I don't agree with there stance...
and more drama... as celebrating the genocide of native americans[/i]... :roll:
By the way, when are you going to give Canada back to the Inuit's and Métis...?
if americans really cared - iraq would never have been allowed to happen ...
that is such crap. many Americans supported the Iraq war back in 2003...obviously based on false information but by then it was too late. and as it was known, the anti movement was huge...arguably partly the reason why democrats took over Congress and eventually the Presidency.
well ... choose stupidity or apathy - it's up to you ... there is a reason why the REST of the world did not join in that war ... the anti-war people showed that the information was false well before the invasion and occupation ... the anti-war movement failed - if it was remotely successful, bush would never have been "re-elected" ... the democrats are largely in office because this economic downturn happened under W's watch ...
this is such crap....lots and lots of it...but you seem to know more that everyone else...so carry on..keep painting everyone with such a broad paintbrush...it keeps things simple for you...
you present as if I have the power to call up the CIA and tell them what to do...will I understand you're point, it's just a silly one...I suppose I should be upset at my parents of birthing my in the US...I guess all Americans are bad people based on some actions and choices made by our gov't....sadly, the best I can do is vote and contact my elected representative when I don't agree with there stance...
and more drama... as celebrating the genocide of native americans[/i]... :roll:
By the way, when are you going to give Canada back to the Inuit's and Métis...?
you miss my point completely
have i said americans are bad people? i don't believe i have ... all i am saying is that americans choose to be ignroant of the actions of their gov't ... it is this general apathy that allows iraq to happen ...
as for columbus day - let's be honest here ... it is celebrating the arrival of christopher columbus ... knowing what we know now about what he started - is he really worth having a holiday over? ... as you or someone else indicated earlier - many states and municipalities have done the right thing and have chosen to not celebrate it but again (in line with the apathy theme) most places just go along with it ...
and as for your last point - i wholeheartedly agree that we have done irrepairable damange to our first nations - a wrong that probably can't be made right ... i do know tho that 1. i don't treat your criticism as an afront to my nationalistic pride and 2. that we don't have a holiday celebrating our treatment of our first nations ...
you present as if I have the power to call up the CIA and tell them what to do...will I understand you're point, it's just a silly one...I suppose I should be upset at my parents of birthing my in the US...I guess all Americans are bad people based on some actions and choices made by our gov't....sadly, the best I can do is vote and contact my elected representative when I don't agree with there stance...
and more drama... as celebrating the genocide of native americans[/i]... :roll:
By the way, when are you going to give Canada back to the Inuit's and Métis...?
you miss my point completely
have i said americans are bad people? i don't believe i have ... all i am saying is that americans choose to be ignroant of the actions of their gov't ... it is this general apathy that allows iraq to happen ...
as for columbus day - let's be honest here ... it is celebrating the arrival of christopher columbus ... knowing what we know now about what he started - is he really worth having a holiday over? ... as you or someone else indicated earlier - many states and municipalities have done the right thing and have chosen to not celebrate it but again (in line with the apathy theme) most places just go along with it ...
and as for your last point - i wholeheartedly agree that we have done irrepairable damange to our first nations - a wrong that probably can't be made right ... i do know tho that 1. i don't treat your criticism as an afront to my nationalistic pride and 2. that we don't have a holiday celebrating our treatment of our first nations ...
o ok I understand. we arent bad people. just ignorant assholes who never speak their minds and who celebrate genocide.
you present as if I have the power to call up the CIA and tell them what to do...will I understand you're point, it's just a silly one...I suppose I should be upset at my parents of birthing my in the US...I guess all Americans are bad people based on some actions and choices made by our gov't....sadly, the best I can do is vote and contact my elected representative when I don't agree with there stance...
and more drama... as celebrating the genocide of native americans[/i]... :roll:
By the way, when are you going to give Canada back to the Inuit's and Métis...?
you miss my point completely
have i said americans are bad people? i don't believe i have ... all i am saying is that americans choose to be ignroant of the actions of their gov't ... it is this general apathy that allows iraq to happen ...
as for columbus day - let's be honest here ... it is celebrating the arrival of christopher columbus ... knowing what we know now about what he started - is he really worth having a holiday over? ... as you or someone else indicated earlier - many states and municipalities have done the right thing and have chosen to not celebrate it but again (in line with the apathy theme) most places just go along with it ...
and as for your last point - i wholeheartedly agree that we have done irrepairable damange to our first nations - a wrong that probably can't be made right ... i do know tho that 1. i don't treat your criticism as an afront to my nationalistic pride and 2. that we don't have a holiday celebrating our treatment of our first nations ...
Most of the remaining celebrations tied to Columbus Day are rooted in the Roman Catholic Church and their Knights of Columbus organizations...one has to wonder how the Catholic church would have emerged from the Reformation without the funds created by New World enterprises started by Columbus.
All the world will be your enemy, Prince with a thousand enemies, and whenever they catch you, they will kill you. But first they must catch you, digger, listener, runner, prince with the swift warning. Be cunning and full of tricks and your people shall never be destroyed.
o ok I understand. we arent bad people. just ignorant assholes who never speak their minds and who celebrate genocide.
your close! haha
yea, maybe its funny to you to insult an entire nation of people but not to me. some piece of work you are
i put in "north" americans in my original post with a specific disclaimer ... knowing full well that you can't say anything remotely bad about americans without some people taking it so defensively ...
oh well ... you try and offer an honest opinion and this is the result ...
... knowing full well that you can't say anything remotely bad about americans without some people taking it so defensively ...
oh well ... you try and offer an honest opinion and this is the result ...
here's a newsflash for you, when you call someone an ignorant genocide loving scumbag, people are going to be defensive and insulted. and you even have to guts to laugh about it.
... knowing full well that you can't say anything remotely bad about americans without some people taking it so defensively ...
oh well ... you try and offer an honest opinion and this is the result ...
here's a newsflash for you, when you call someone an ignorant genocide loving scumbag, people are going to be defensive and insulted. and you even have to guts to laugh about it.
i do wish you were able to understand the words i typed better - it's unfortunate that is what you gleamed from this discussion ... but again - when you engage in a conversation with your back up already - chances are you aren't gonna get it because you already are in a defensive state ...
i'm dating an american and i can guarantee you that if she thought i believed all americans were ingorant genocidal loving scumbag - she wouldn't be dating me ... having said that - she would agree 100% of what i said ...
My whole life
was like a picture
of a sunny day
“We can complain because rose bushes have thorns, or rejoice because thorn bushes have roses.”
― Abraham Lincoln
i do wish you were able to understand the words i typed better - it's unfortunate that is what you gleamed from this discussion ... but again - when you engage in a conversation with your back up already - chances are you aren't gonna get it because you already are in a defensive state ...
i'm dating an american and i can guarantee you that if she thought i believed all americans were ingorant genocidal loving scumbag - she wouldn't be dating me ... having said that - she would agree 100% of what i said ...
spare me. you come across as condescending and taking the moral high ground as if you are better then everyone. a few times you specifically said Americans are ignorant for allowing the government to go to war with Iraq. and also said Americans celebrate the genocide of Native Americans on Columbus day. both of which are complete horseshit and very insulting thing to say. get your fucking high horse.
but even the "native americans" might not have been the first in America (probably- though others knew about it).
This map shows an accurate African coast, American coast, and Antarctic coast.
the problem with that
1) South America wasn't discovered yet (according to standard history)
2) the map uses high level math, not supposed to have been discovered until a few hundred years ago.
3) the map show an accurate coastline of Antarctica, under the ICE, which was only visible around 4000 B.C. at the earliest. It is so accurate that some maps today have been corrected.
high level math/advanced cartography/advanced maritime activity...all the signs of a very advanced civilization that no one knows about. so advanced we are using some of their data to this day.
The map is what Columbus used to "discover" a land that was already accurately charted some 5000 years before his time.
spare me. you come across as condescending and taking the moral high ground as if you are better then everyone. a few times you specifically said Americans are ignorant for allowing the government to go to war with Iraq. and also said Americans celebrate the genocide of Native Americans on Columbus day. both of which are complete horseshit and very insulting thing to say. get your fucking high horse.
really - you miss my point completely ... i could write what you come across as but it totally has nothing to do with the discussion at hand ... and pointless ...
i have never said americans celebrate the genocide of native americans - they celebrate columbus day, which to most means http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Columbus_day and like i previously stated - people don't really care about the day and the ignorance part is that most people just view columbus as the guy who landed the ship ... they don't consider the resulting history ...
but even the "native americans" might not have been the first in America (probably- though others knew about it).
This map shows an accurate African coast, American coast, and Antarctic coast.
the problem with that
1) South America wasn't discovered yet (according to standard history)
2) the map uses high level math, not supposed to have been discovered until a few hundred years ago.
3) the map show an accurate coastline of Antarctica, under the ICE, which was only visible around 4000 B.C. at the earliest. It is so accurate that some maps today have been corrected.
high level math/advanced cartography/advanced maritime activity...all the signs of a very advanced civilization that no one knows about. so advanced we are using some of their data to this day.
The map is what Columbus used to "discover" a land that was already accurately charted some 5000 years before his time.
If it beat the natives here it would have to be a map that was older than 10-15,000 years old
All the world will be your enemy, Prince with a thousand enemies, and whenever they catch you, they will kill you. But first they must catch you, digger, listener, runner, prince with the swift warning. Be cunning and full of tricks and your people shall never be destroyed.
Hmm, calling the people who were in this hemisphere Native "American" is , quite frankly an insult in itself.Wide and varied cultures were present for a long time before ANY european explorers came to these shores to TAKE what was valuable/exploitable. What did they call this place? North/South America? I think Not.
The Dutch , English ,French , Spanish brought their little world rape pissing match to these shores long before USA was even contemplated.
So please , own up to your own countries histrories and leave us to ours.
And further , It sure would be nice to NOT have Wiki quoted as a source knowing that any asshole that can type can create or change a definition as they see fit. Thanks.
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
Hmm, calling the people who were in this hemisphere Native "American" is , quite frankly an insult in itself.Wide and varied cultures were present for a long time before ANY european explorers came to these shores to TAKE what was valuable/exploitable. What did they call this place? North/South America? I think Not.
The Dutch , English ,French , Spanish brought their little world rape pissing match to these shores long before USA was even contemplated.
So please , own up to your own countries histrories and leave us to ours.
And further , It sure would be nice to NOT have Wiki quoted as a source knowing that any asshole that can type can create or change a definition as they see fit. Thanks.
Don't forget the Portuguese. :twisted:
All the world will be your enemy, Prince with a thousand enemies, and whenever they catch you, they will kill you. But first they must catch you, digger, listener, runner, prince with the swift warning. Be cunning and full of tricks and your people shall never be destroyed.
Comments
wow..."volumes", oh the drama...
For the record, State Employees in NC don't get the day off. We get Veterans Day in November.
Seriously, there are all kinds of holiday's on the calender...in fact May 16th is Armed Forces Day...I guess it's a day to celebrate wars and death, right...? May 23rd is World Turtle Day...I think it's a damn shame there is no parade...
I hope you don't celebrate Remembrance Day in Canada...that's a bad thing, right...
if americans really cared - iraq would never have been allowed to happen ... if you think remembrance day is the same as columbus day - i would have to humbly disagree ...
awww can I get you a tissue? dont cry that I exposed you for trying to make Americans look stupid. and made you look really foolish in doing so.
LOL I know, it really speaks volumes!
and its too bad you live where you do. World Turtle Day has a parade and concert every year in the middle of downtown Chicago. you're really missin out man
you're right...we don't care... :?
as for remembrance day, you're celebrating/remembering those who died is war...well, if you really cared, those wars would have never happened...
that is such crap. many Americans supported the Iraq war back in 2003...obviously based on false information but by then it was too late. and as it was known, the anti movement was huge...arguably partly the reason why democrats took over Congress and eventually the Presidency.
Far be it for me to burst the little bubble of delusion in which you love to stroke yourself.
did you or did you not make this thread to try and make Americans look stupid by saying we celebrate a person who did not discover America?
we are by no means perfect in canada - but i do know that we have not engaged in your cia funded proxy wars or occupied any country nor have we paid to have democratically elected leaders deposed ... again - if you think remembering those that fought against hitler's germany is the same as celebrating the genocide of native americans - i will again humbly disagree ...
Not guilty.
Edit: I was watching a documentary on the history of the English language - 'The Adventure of English' - and it touched on the Vikings journeys across the North Atlantic. It got me to thinking about the whole Columbus issue and if and how it effects it as far as Americans are concerned. That's all.
well ... choose stupidity or apathy - it's up to you ... there is a reason why the REST of the world did not join in that war ... the anti-war people showed that the information was false well before the invasion and occupation ... the anti-war movement failed - if it was remotely successful, bush would never have been "re-elected" ... the democrats are largely in office because this economic downturn happened under W's watch ...
Then the Norse stopped by for a visit. Hung around a while....decided that this "new found land" was not to their liking and left. Being the good European neighbors that they were, they did not spread the news about their adventures across the sea.
So then, this here Columbus fellow attempts to make a bee-line for India. He encounters a number of large islands where there supposed to be dragons....apparently there was a whole damn continent in his way towards India. His Spanish overlords decide that this new continent would be good for the royal treasury, so they stay. Then just about every major European power follows suit. This was a "New World" because any knowledge of what the Norsemen discovered once upon a time was lost during the Dark Ages, buried deep in an Abbey or never recorded. The same goes for any Irish or Basque fishermen adventures to the "New World" that predated Columbus. So for many a generation, Columbus was the only KNOWN discover of America.
As our knowledge and scientific methods grow and improve, we discover more of what was hidden from our sight. Some now believe that the Chinese ventured to the west coast of present-day California prior to Columbus's journeys. There is also now evidence that the Polynesians visited South America before 1492. Of course if you are a Mormon, part of your belief system is that one of the tribes of Israel migrated to the Americas way before Columbus.
you present as if I have the power to call up the CIA and tell them what to do...will I understand you're point, it's just a silly one...I suppose I should be upset at my parents of birthing my in the US...I guess all Americans are bad people based on some actions and choices made by our gov't....sadly, the best I can do is vote and contact my elected representative when I don't agree with there stance...
and more drama... as celebrating the genocide of native americans[/i]... :roll:
By the way, when are you going to give Canada back to the Inuit's and Métis...?
this is such crap....lots and lots of it...but you seem to know more that everyone else...so carry on..keep painting everyone with such a broad paintbrush...it keeps things simple for you...
LOL ok??
you miss my point completely
have i said americans are bad people? i don't believe i have ... all i am saying is that americans choose to be ignroant of the actions of their gov't ... it is this general apathy that allows iraq to happen ...
as for columbus day - let's be honest here ... it is celebrating the arrival of christopher columbus ... knowing what we know now about what he started - is he really worth having a holiday over? ... as you or someone else indicated earlier - many states and municipalities have done the right thing and have chosen to not celebrate it but again (in line with the apathy theme) most places just go along with it ...
and as for your last point - i wholeheartedly agree that we have done irrepairable damange to our first nations - a wrong that probably can't be made right ... i do know tho that 1. i don't treat your criticism as an afront to my nationalistic pride and 2. that we don't have a holiday celebrating our treatment of our first nations ...
o ok I understand. we arent bad people. just ignorant assholes who never speak their minds and who celebrate genocide.
your close! haha
yea, maybe its funny to you to insult an entire nation of people but not to me. some piece of work you are
i put in "north" americans in my original post with a specific disclaimer ... knowing full well that you can't say anything remotely bad about americans without some people taking it so defensively ...
oh well ... you try and offer an honest opinion and this is the result ...
how noble of you. yet sadly, you went on to specify Americans.
here's a newsflash for you, when you call someone an ignorant genocide loving scumbag, people are going to be defensive and insulted. and you even have to guts to laugh about it.
i do wish you were able to understand the words i typed better - it's unfortunate that is what you gleamed from this discussion ... but again - when you engage in a conversation with your back up already - chances are you aren't gonna get it because you already are in a defensive state ...
i'm dating an american and i can guarantee you that if she thought i believed all americans were ingorant genocidal loving scumbag - she wouldn't be dating me ... having said that - she would agree 100% of what i said ...
was like a picture
of a sunny day
“We can complain because rose bushes have thorns, or rejoice because thorn bushes have roses.”
― Abraham Lincoln
spare me. you come across as condescending and taking the moral high ground as if you are better then everyone. a few times you specifically said Americans are ignorant for allowing the government to go to war with Iraq. and also said Americans celebrate the genocide of Native Americans on Columbus day. both of which are complete horseshit and very insulting thing to say. get your fucking high horse.
but even the "native americans" might not have been the first in America (probably- though others knew about it).
This map shows an accurate African coast, American coast, and Antarctic coast.
the problem with that
1) South America wasn't discovered yet (according to standard history)
2) the map uses high level math, not supposed to have been discovered until a few hundred years ago.
3) the map show an accurate coastline of Antarctica, under the ICE, which was only visible around 4000 B.C. at the earliest. It is so accurate that some maps today have been corrected.
high level math/advanced cartography/advanced maritime activity...all the signs of a very advanced civilization that no one knows about. so advanced we are using some of their data to this day.
The map is what Columbus used to "discover" a land that was already accurately charted some 5000 years before his time.
http://www.world-mysteries.com/sar_1.htm
really - you miss my point completely ... i could write what you come across as but it totally has nothing to do with the discussion at hand ... and pointless ...
i have never said americans celebrate the genocide of native americans - they celebrate columbus day, which to most means http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Columbus_day and like i previously stated - people don't really care about the day and the ignorance part is that most people just view columbus as the guy who landed the ship ... they don't consider the resulting history ...
The Dutch , English ,French , Spanish brought their little world rape pissing match to these shores long before USA was even contemplated.
So please , own up to your own countries histrories and leave us to ours.
And further , It sure would be nice to NOT have Wiki quoted as a source knowing that any asshole that can type can create or change a definition as they see fit. Thanks.
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14