The Gay Debate

jlew24asu

this isnt really a gay question, more of a marriage rights question. right now, marriage is defined by a man and a woman. if gays are allowed, do the polygamists have a right to marry too?

know1

Jasunmark wrote:

Nice to know I've got people in my corner, and no, that's not a euphemism for anything.

There's always going to be someone who's going to try to suggest that I chose to be gay.. that I want to be gay or that even if I didn't choose it that I should have the decency to hide when they can see me.

I don't want to force myself into anyone's life but I DO need to stand up and fight for my rights and the rights of my family. Saying it "should be between consenting adults" is just a way to say "I can't stop you from shagging in your house but have the decency to hide it from me."

Sorry, no.

Straight people parade their sexuality all over the place. I see them with their spouse's pictures on their desks, I see them wearing wedding rings, starting sentences with "my girlfriend and a I...." and walking through the streets holding hands. I see them driving through the streets with "JUST MARRIED" signs on their cars, honking their horns and holding up traffic. I see them on every TV show, every movie and 90% of the billboards out there.

And you know what? I don't want it to stop. Please be you, blackredyellow, but please allow me to have the same rights you do. When Britney Spears can stagger drunk into a wedding chapel to get married "for a joke" and get more rights than I do after 17 years with my husband... there's a pretty big problem there and I think that even YOU will agree to that.





(btw... am I the only homo here?)

You make good points and I generally agree with you.

I will say this - people can look down on you, me or anyone for the way we act or our behavior and there isn't anything we can do about it. They might look down on me for my terrible haircut, my atrocious tattoos, my height, my weight, my fake tan, my accent, my ill-fitting jeans, my facial expressions, etc. It happens all the time and it will never end.

People are by nature judgmental. I'm not defending it, but it happens to everyone constantly and the more time individuals spend looking for ways they are being judged in a negative fashion, the more they will see it and the bigger issue it will become for them personally.

And I do agree that it's not fair that Britney has more rights in that "marriage" (if you can call it that) than you do, but then again - and this is going to come off as harsh but I'm saying it to make an illustration and not because I truly believe it - you could have drunkenly married someone of the opposite sex if you had chosen to as well and gotten the same privileges. So does she have more of them than you or not?

soulsinging

jlew24asu wrote:

this isnt really a gay question, more of a marriage rights question. right now, marriage is defined by a man and a woman. if gays are allowed, do the polygamists have a right to marry too?

First of all, sure why not? If everyone is an adult and consents, who cares?

But second of all, marriage between a man and a woman is arbitrary. Why is it so much more strange to say marriage is a social contract between two consenting adults? Then you avoid the polygamy issue.

jlew24asu

soulsinging wrote:

jlew24asu wrote:

this isnt really a gay question, more of a marriage rights question. right now, marriage is defined by a man and a woman. if gays are allowed, do the polygamists have a right to marry too?

First of all, sure why not? If everyone is an adult and consents, who cares?

But second of all, marriage between a man and a woman is arbitrary. Why is it so much more strange to say marriage is a social contract between two consenting adults? Then you avoid the polygamy issue.

you are making the argument for both. which is it? allow polygamist to marriage or not?

IMO, easy way to clear up issues is to define marriage between 2 people. I dont think polygamy should be allowed for legal reasons. it would become way to damn complicated.

soulsinging

jlew24asu wrote:

soulsinging wrote:

jlew24asu wrote:

this isnt really a gay question, more of a marriage rights question. right now, marriage is defined by a man and a woman. if gays are allowed, do the polygamists have a right to marry too?

First of all, sure why not? If everyone is an adult and consents, who cares?

But second of all, marriage between a man and a woman is arbitrary. Why is it so much more strange to say marriage is a social contract between two consenting adults? Then you avoid the polygamy issue.

you are making the argument for both. which is it? allow polygamist to marriage or not?

IMO, easy way to clear up issues is to define marriage between 2 people. I dont think polygamy should be allowed for legal reasons. it would become way to damn complicated.

I can argue for both, because I truly don't care. Though I'd probably tend just to the 2 people thing, solely for the reason you mentioned... the legal gymnastics of dealing with polygamy would be a pain in the ass. I was just making the point that marriage between a man and a woman is an arbitrary stopping point. People always say "if you allow gay marriage, what will stop you from ok'ing people marrying fish or polygamy." That's ridiculous. You can stop it wherever you like. It's between a man and a WOMAN now, but even that definition has changed... I didn't see people crying when we altered the definition to exclude practices like marrying off your 13 year old daughter to a 40 year old man. The fact is it's as much an arbitrary line reflecting social judgment calls as it stands now.

soulsinging

Jasunmark wrote:

Nice to know I've got people in my corner, and no, that's not a euphemism for anything.

There's always going to be someone who's going to try to suggest that I chose to be gay.. that I want to be gay or that even if I didn't choose it that I should have the decency to hide when they can see me.

I don't want to force myself into anyone's life but I DO need to stand up and fight for my rights and the rights of my family. Saying it "should be between consenting adults" is just a way to say "I can't stop you from shagging in your house but have the decency to hide it from me."

Sorry, no.

Straight people parade their sexuality all over the place. I see them with their spouse's pictures on their desks, I see them wearing wedding rings, starting sentences with "my girlfriend and a I...." and walking through the streets holding hands. I see them driving through the streets with "JUST MARRIED" signs on their cars, honking their horns and holding up traffic. I see them on every TV show, every movie and 90% of the billboards out there.

And you know what? I don't want it to stop. Please be you, blackredyellow, but please allow me to have the same rights you do. When Britney Spears can stagger drunk into a wedding chapel to get married "for a joke" and get more rights than I do after 17 years with my husband... there's a pretty big problem there and I think that even YOU will agree to that.

(btw... am I the only homo here?)

Well said, and why I oppose the whole civil union thing (though I didn't use to... well, I still will support it if we do away with government involvement in marriage and make only civil unions for everyone)... the separate but equal thing has never worked.

As to the last question, I don't think so. I believe a few posters have mentioned it before, but they generally seem reluctant to get drawn into debates like this.

know1

soulsinging wrote:

Well said, and why I oppose the whole civil union thing (though I didn't use to... well, I still will support it if we do away with government involvement in marriage and make only civil unions for everyone)... the separate but equal thing has never worked.

This is what I support (above). I think the government should get completely out of sanctioning marriage.

As for the "rights" that married couples have - let's just have provisions that allow someone to legally convey those exact same rights on 1 other adult and be done with it.

soulsinging

know1 wrote:

soulsinging wrote:

Well said, and why I oppose the whole civil union thing (though I didn't use to... well, I still will support it if we do away with government involvement in marriage and make only civil unions for everyone)... the separate but equal thing has never worked.

This is what I support (above). I think the government should get completely out of sanctioning marriage.

As for the "rights" that married couples have - let's just have provisions that allow someone to legally convey those exact same rights on 1 other adult and be done with it.

I've always felt that the people arguing against gay marriage based on some sanctity of marriage ideal should be fighting for this too. Vegas wedding, celebs marrying and divorcing in weeks, tv shows where people compete to marry a rich stranger... heteros destroyed any sanctity of marriage long before the homos got to it.

whitepants

Jasunmark wrote:

Straight people parade their sexuality all over the place. I see them with their spouse's pictures on their desks, I see them wearing wedding rings, starting sentences with "my girlfriend and a I...." and walking through the streets holding hands. I see them driving through the streets with "JUST MARRIED" signs on their cars, honking their horns and holding up traffic. I see them on every TV show, every movie and 90% of the billboards out there.


(btw... am I the only homo here?)

I couldn't agree with you more, and this coming from a gay-friendly straight single female. Hets have ruined "marriage" the world over with the high divorce rates and the constant cheating on one another. If I get married, fine, but it's not something I'm eagerly searching for. it's bullshit, a piece of meaningless paper, and I say meaningless because 60% of those who end up divorcing just trivialized their very vows and the legality of said paper.

Simply put, consenting non-blood related adults who want to marry one another should be allowed to do so. I'm tired of the discrimination against gay people. If people truly believed in God, then they would realize that he/she loves all humankind and want us all to be happy. Period!

cornnifer

whitepants wrote:

Jasunmark wrote:

. If I get married, fine, but it's not something I'm eagerly searching for. it's bullshit, a piece of meaningless paper, and I say meaningless because 60% of those who end up divorcing just trivialized their very vows and the legality of said paper.

Don't get married. Please. Don't get married to a man a woman or anything else. Your attitude towards marriage is why its all fucked up. Marriage is the foundation of human society. If you do get married, which i, once again, beseech you to never do, NEVER EVER reproduce. It won't be fair to your children when you decide to walk away from such "bullshit".

Prince Of Dorkness

know1 wrote:

you could have drunkenly married someone of the opposite sex if you had chosen to as well and gotten the same privileges. So does she have more of them than you or not?

um.. what?

That doesn't even make sense. I'm already married.. and I don't have the rights and protections that she has.

you want me to get drunk and marry a woman so... um...

Is it just me or does it seem that marriage needs protection from straight people now?

deadmosquito

Jasunmark wrote:

(btw... am I the only homo here?)

no, not the only one. there's me and i think a couple others

norm

cornnifer wrote:

Marriage is the foundation of human society.

wtf?!?!?!

know1

Jasunmark wrote:

know1 wrote:

you could have drunkenly married someone of the opposite sex if you had chosen to as well and gotten the same privileges. So does she have more of them than you or not?

um.. what?

That doesn't even make sense. I'm already married.. and I don't have the rights and protections that she has.

you want me to get drunk and marry a woman so... um...

Is it just me or does it seem that marriage needs protection from straight people now?

It makes perfect sense. You asked why Britney has more "rights" in her quickie, drunken marriage than you do. And I'm saying those rights are THEORETICALLY available to you.

(****and my statement/quote was much longer than that and when you pick and choose what part of it to come out, it loses some of its meaning. Perhaps that's why you're struggling to make sense of it)

jlew24asu

know1 wrote:

It makes perfect sense. You asked why Britney has more "rights" in her quickie, drunken marriage than you do. And I'm saying those rights are THEORETICALLY available to you.

(****and my statement/quote was much longer than that and when you pick and choose what part of it to come out, it loses some of its meaning. Perhaps that's why you're struggling to make sense of it)

but he can only do that with a woman. if he wants to go to vegas, get drunk, stumble into some wedding chapel, he can NOT get married to a guy. but britney can.

whitepants

cornnifer wrote:

whitepants wrote:

Jasunmark wrote:

. If I get married, fine, but it's not something I'm eagerly searching for. it's bullshit, a piece of meaningless paper, and I say meaningless because 60% of those who end up divorcing just trivialized their very vows and the legality of said paper.

Don't get married. Please. Don't get married to a man a woman or anything else. Your attitude towards marriage is why its all fucked up. Marriage is the foundation of human society. If you do get married, which i, once again, beseech you to never do, NEVER EVER reproduce. It won't be fair to your children when you decide to walk away from such "bullshit".

Oh please, take a chill pill! I'm one of the smart ones! I reckon it's people like you who has screwed up the meaning of marriage with your narrow views.

BTW, you can sleep good tonight, I don't plan on having kids. and BTW, just ask Eddie, you don't need to be married to have kids and have a happy life.

whitepants

norm wrote:

cornnifer wrote:

Marriage is the foundation of human society.

wtf?!?!?!

yeah, me too.

know1

jlew24asu wrote:

know1 wrote:

It makes perfect sense. You asked why Britney has more "rights" in her quickie, drunken marriage than you do. And I'm saying those rights are THEORETICALLY available to you.

(****and my statement/quote was much longer than that and when you pick and choose what part of it to come out, it loses some of its meaning. Perhaps that's why you're struggling to make sense of it)

but he can only do that with a woman. if he wants to go to vegas, get drunk, stumble into some wedding chapel, he can NOT get married to a guy. but britney can.

But Britney can't do that with a girl.....but he could....

jlew24asu

know1 wrote:

But Britney can't do that with a girl.....but he could....

LOL, I get that. but in that case, its not fair for Britney either. the point you are trying to make is meaningless.

the only point of Jasunmark wanting to get married is for the legal rights that come with it. not because he wants the piece of paper or do the physical act of it. but yes, you are right, Jasunmark can get married to some girl (like britney can with some guy), but so what? he gains nothing from doing that because he doesnt want to share any legal rights or love with a girl.

**Jasunmark, I apologize, correct me if I'm wrong in anything I said. I hate to be speaking for you, and I'm not trying to.

know1

jlew24asu wrote:

know1 wrote:

But Britney can't do that with a girl.....but he could....

LOL, I get that. but in that case, its not fair for Britney either. the point you are trying to make is meaningless.

the only point of Jasunmark wanting to get married is for the legal rights that come with it. not because he wants the piece of paper or do the physical act of it. but yes, you are right, Jasunmark can get married to some girl (like britney can with some guy), but so what? he gains nothing from doing that because he doesnt want to share any legal rights or love with a girl.

**Jasunmark, I apologize, correct me if I'm wrong in anything I said. I hate to be speaking for you, and I'm not trying to.

I know it's meaningless, but the point is that TECHNICALLY he already has the same rights that Britney does.