The Gay Debate
soulsinging
Posts: 13,202
has been all downhill since Seinfeld's "Outing" episode. Hilarious.
Not that there's anything wrong with that.
Not that there's anything wrong with that.
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Agreed. But that episode so hilariously captures how awkward the subject was just 15 years ago.
if anything, it gave people who are still uncomfortable a humorous way to show it
the flat earth society is well on its way....
Religious fundemantalcases are the only reason this debate hasn't been put out of its misery.
I'm a huge Seinfield fan. excellent show.
heres a good debate on the issue...
are gay people born that way?
All the emotional spinning around the topic disguises the unfairness of the restrictions they face!!
On top of that, many of the more flamboyant members of their community tend to alienate people and make it more difficult for unreflective people to see it as a topic that needs to be seriously addressed.
I think that's what struck me about the episode (aside from laughing my ass off). Even people that are supportive of equal rights (like everyone in the show essentially) don't necessarily know how to respond to the issue or how to help. It's not so much like that anymore, but there are a lot of people who probably don't give a fuck if gay people can get married, but still aren't very comfortable talking about the issue.
Or, perhaps it's something that needs to be unwrapped for people so that they can see it properly?
Right now it's still wearing the clothes from two generations ago and people have just gotten accustomed to the frumpy outfit it wears as if the issue is just some kooky old relative everyone ignores.
I thought the world...Turns out the world thought me
You are comparing apples to zebras... Global warming (or at least the cause of it) is open for debate, and we will never know the exact cause(s) or if/when the trend will go the other way.
As far as the gay issue, there isn't one... there have always been gay people, and there always will.... nothing really to debate about that. People can pretend that they don't exist, or somehow think that it's a choice, but judgements made against homosexuality are always based on religion, or the belief that it's "icky".
I don't even know why I am even responding to your post anyway... you always just throw in some hannity-like drive-by talking point and never follow up on it anyway.
was like a picture
of a sunny day
“We can complain because rose bushes have thorns, or rejoice because thorn bushes have roses.”
― Abraham Lincoln
That being said, it's not a civil rights issue.
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
Sexual preference isn't a civil rights issue, but being discriminated because of it is. Whether that goes as far as marriage is up to debate, but people have the right to be treated as far as hiring, firing, renting to, etc., regardless of sexual preference.
was like a picture
of a sunny day
“We can complain because rose bushes have thorns, or rejoice because thorn bushes have roses.”
― Abraham Lincoln
Yes. That's the point. Anytime they aren't given the same treatment because they are not heterosexual, it is a civil rights issue.
Five states, 45 more to go!
First PJ Show: March 20, 1994 | Ann Arbor | Crisler Arena
There's always going to be someone who's going to try to suggest that I chose to be gay.. that I want to be gay or that even if I didn't choose it that I should have the decency to hide when they can see me.
I don't want to force myself into anyone's life but I DO need to stand up and fight for my rights and the rights of my family. Saying it "should be between consenting adults" is just a way to say "I can't stop you from shagging in your house but have the decency to hide it from me."
Sorry, no.
Straight people parade their sexuality all over the place. I see them with their spouse's pictures on their desks, I see them wearing wedding rings, starting sentences with "my girlfriend and a I...." and walking through the streets holding hands. I see them driving through the streets with "JUST MARRIED" signs on their cars, honking their horns and holding up traffic. I see them on every TV show, every movie and 90% of the billboards out there.
And you know what? I don't want it to stop. Please be you, blackredyellow, but please allow me to have the same rights you do. When Britney Spears can stagger drunk into a wedding chapel to get married "for a joke" and get more rights than I do after 17 years with my husband... there's a pretty big problem there and I think that even YOU will agree to that.
(btw... am I the only homo here?)
This isn't really your point and it's probably just semantics, but I don't think anyone - hetero or otherwise - DESERVES to get married. I don't think marriage is a right for anyone, either. It probably falls more into the category of a privilege if anything.
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
You make good points and I generally agree with you.
I will say this - people can look down on you, me or anyone for the way we act or our behavior and there isn't anything we can do about it. They might look down on me for my terrible haircut, my atrocious tattoos, my height, my weight, my fake tan, my accent, my ill-fitting jeans, my facial expressions, etc. It happens all the time and it will never end.
People are by nature judgmental. I'm not defending it, but it happens to everyone constantly and the more time individuals spend looking for ways they are being judged in a negative fashion, the more they will see it and the bigger issue it will become for them personally.
And I do agree that it's not fair that Britney has more rights in that "marriage" (if you can call it that) than you do, but then again - and this is going to come off as harsh but I'm saying it to make an illustration and not because I truly believe it - you could have drunkenly married someone of the opposite sex if you had chosen to as well and gotten the same privileges. So does she have more of them than you or not?
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
First of all, sure why not? If everyone is an adult and consents, who cares?
But second of all, marriage between a man and a woman is arbitrary. Why is it so much more strange to say marriage is a social contract between two consenting adults? Then you avoid the polygamy issue.
you are making the argument for both. which is it? allow polygamist to marriage or not?
IMO, easy way to clear up issues is to define marriage between 2 people. I dont think polygamy should be allowed for legal reasons. it would become way to damn complicated.
I can argue for both, because I truly don't care. Though I'd probably tend just to the 2 people thing, solely for the reason you mentioned... the legal gymnastics of dealing with polygamy would be a pain in the ass. I was just making the point that marriage between a man and a woman is an arbitrary stopping point. People always say "if you allow gay marriage, what will stop you from ok'ing people marrying fish or polygamy." That's ridiculous. You can stop it wherever you like. It's between a man and a WOMAN now, but even that definition has changed... I didn't see people crying when we altered the definition to exclude practices like marrying off your 13 year old daughter to a 40 year old man. The fact is it's as much an arbitrary line reflecting social judgment calls as it stands now.
Well said, and why I oppose the whole civil union thing (though I didn't use to... well, I still will support it if we do away with government involvement in marriage and make only civil unions for everyone)... the separate but equal thing has never worked.
As to the last question, I don't think so. I believe a few posters have mentioned it before, but they generally seem reluctant to get drawn into debates like this.
This is what I support (above). I think the government should get completely out of sanctioning marriage.
As for the "rights" that married couples have - let's just have provisions that allow someone to legally convey those exact same rights on 1 other adult and be done with it.
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
I've always felt that the people arguing against gay marriage based on some sanctity of marriage ideal should be fighting for this too. Vegas wedding, celebs marrying and divorcing in weeks, tv shows where people compete to marry a rich stranger... heteros destroyed any sanctity of marriage long before the homos got to it.
I couldn't agree with you more, and this coming from a gay-friendly straight single female. Hets have ruined "marriage" the world over with the high divorce rates and the constant cheating on one another. If I get married, fine, but it's not something I'm eagerly searching for. it's bullshit, a piece of meaningless paper, and I say meaningless because 60% of those who end up divorcing just trivialized their very vows and the legality of said paper.
Simply put, consenting non-blood related adults who want to marry one another should be allowed to do so. I'm tired of the discrimination against gay people. If people truly believed in God, then they would realize that he/she loves all humankind and want us all to be happy. Period!
First PJ Show: March 20, 1994 | Ann Arbor | Crisler Arena
Don't get married. Please. Don't get married to a man a woman or anything else. Your attitude towards marriage is why its all fucked up. Marriage is the foundation of human society. If you do get married, which i, once again, beseech you to never do, NEVER EVER reproduce. It won't be fair to your children when you decide to walk away from such "bullshit".