Just know that every man tortured in a cell in some dungeon ...every time that happens, it gives the forces fighting US troops a reason to fight. A perfectly good reason to fight.
And that list about waterboarding and walling, released by the Obama administration is bullshit.
Torture is torture. They don't put a neck brace on a guy before they slam him into a wall...that is the stupidest thing i have ever heard...they sodomize people with nightsticks...they beat them senseless, they electrocute them, sometimes they die. Broken bones, cuts, broken jaws, broken teeth. its not regulated like they would have you believe with the release of the information. and lot of guys are literally tortured to death.
Here's torture, and i'm betting not many people here have seen the following pictures.
yes that's blood, a lot of blood. And yes those are drag marks from the body they pulled out of the cell. The guy didn't survive that session.
how do you know it's bullshit ? did you get briefed on it by the white house? :roll: Abu ghraib ? those soldiers are being punished for what they did and we all know that. these pics do nothing but make things worse. You make it sound like all the troops partake in these things when you know goddamn well they dont. Nobody died so quit making this shit up Pinko.
Lol, did you forget about all the memos being released that authorized these soldiers that are being punished for what they did. The orders came from the top and you completely seem to forget that.
Please tell me wtf this has to do with us now.See this what Im talking about You and Space Boy always refer to shit that happened 30.50, or 100 yrs ago.
right.
First a war on "terrorism".
Then it was war on "drugs".
Now its war on "terrorism"
Or a war to "liberate" a country. (much like Hitler "liberated" Poland)
Same school different class.
Its always a war on something. And people have such a short memory the US keeps getting away with it.
If more people knew their history, Washington would have a hard time getting involved in third world country every few years.
The goal is always the same, whatever the excuse.
Resources and control.
Why do you think Chavez is a threat? Or Cuba? They are using the resources of their countries to benefit their people, not some foreign corporation. The threat is independence, is in their ability to provide examples to others on how to operate outside of US influence. Resources that benefit the people of the region and not some few individuals? what a concept.
Can't have that.
Why do you think the US has over 700 military bases around the world? Its called empire. And its growing.
But we need to know our history to understand any of that.
So that's why i was bringing things that happened 30 years ago. Because nothing has changed. Still torturing, raping and killing innocent people in the name of liberty or justice or freedom or whatever.
Lol, did you forget about all the memos being released that authorized these soldiers that are being punished for what they did. The orders came from the top and you completely seem to forget that.
no.
that's the point. its not a few douchebags running around, its policy from Washington.
the douchebag in the abu ghraib abuses had orders. only him. granger or whateve his name is. Its why they refuse to allow him to be interviewed, even today. I've seen interviews with everyone else involved. they had no idea what he was doing at first, but saw he obviously had a plan. he had orders. specific orders. and he was following them
the CIA probably gave the orders, but they are all free to do it again next war.
the rest sit in prison (most of them rightfully so). the soldier who took most of the photos had very little to do with any of the abuse, but she was charged with destruction of a crime scene -she moved a dead guys bandages that were applied post mortem to take a photo. ? the "crime scene" had already been changed, when they put bandages on an already dead guy. and some other equally bs charge. 10 years she got, for taking pictures. something like that.
Lol, did you forget about all the memos being released that authorized these soldiers that are being punished for what they did. The orders came from the top and you completely seem to forget that.
no.
that's the point. its not a few douchebags running around, its policy from Washington.
the douchebag in the abu ghraib abuses had orders. only him. granger or whateve his name is. Its why they refuse to allow him to be interviewed, even today. I've seen interviews with everyone else involved. they had no idea what he was doing at first, but saw he obviously had a plan. he had orders. specific orders. and he was following them
the CIA probably gave the orders, but they are all free to do it again next war.
the rest sit in prison (most of them rightfully so). the soldier who took most of the photos had very little to do with any of the abuse, but she was charged with destruction of a crime scene -she moved a dead guys bandages that were applied post mortem to take a photo. ? the "crime scene" had already been changed, when they put bandages on an already dead guy. and some other equally bs charge. 10 years she got, for taking pictures. something like that.
What? That's kind of what I was referring to. I'm a bit confused as to why you are saying "no" there.
...
The only people with any brain damage are you and PINKO.
Reasoned debate on AMT? yeah right... since when have you ever made any sense. Not once have you ever given any solutions on this topic. It's just were the bad guys you seem to think making some one just a little uncomfortable classifies as torture and then you point to the Soviets, the Germans,and all this other B.S. that has nothing to do with the issue. so let me ask you this. When we get hit again Wtf are you going to say then. What kind of bull shit will you come up with. Your post are about as pointless and dumb as that avatar you got .
...
The more you speak... the more you convince me that your 'Uncle' did bad things to your butt when you were 9... didn't he?
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
...
The only people with any brain damage are you and PINKO.
Reasoned debate on AMT? yeah right... since when have you ever made any sense. Not once have you ever given any solutions on this topic. It's just were the bad guys you seem to think making some one just a little uncomfortable classifies as torture and then you point to the Soviets, the Germans,and all this other B.S. that has nothing to do with the issue. so let me ask you this. When we get hit again Wtf are you going to say then. What kind of bull shit will you come up with. Your post are about as pointless and dumb as that avatar you got .
...
The more you speak... the more you convince me that your 'Uncle' did bad things to your butt when you were 9... didn't he?
Is that suppose to make me mad or something ? you just proved what kind of person you really are only a person with a low self image of ones self would resort to statements like that. I know it's easy for you to sit in front of your computer and talk shit all day and not have to see the person face to face cos that's what a real man does right? What if I was molested when I was a kid how would you feel then. probably wouldn't even bother you would it. It's pretty obvious you can't agree to disagree on issues but, do yourself a favor and stop with the personal attacks.
how do you know it's bullshit ? did you get briefed on it by the white house? :roll: Abu ghraib ? those soldiers are being punished for what they did and we all know that. these pics do nothing but make things worse. You make it sound like all the troops partake in these things when you know goddamn well they dont. Nobody died so quit making this shit up Pinko.
if you seriously think we put neck braces on these guys before kicking the shit out of them I don't know what to tell you.
Do your own research. I did.
Like the Contras?
Have you even heard about those guys?
They make Al-Quaeda look like a bunch of pussies.
Dropping pregnant women out of helicopters into villages, torture you can't imagine, burning people alive in front of their families, killing babies and displaying their bodies...
Here's a story about these guys...and I can provide a source if you want, its not propaganda, as hard to believe as it seems
The men had left the village. Only the women and children were left. The Contras came, went into a house and raped and killed everybody there. They went on to cut the heads off their victims. Even the young baby. 8 people, all young or women.
They set the table with fine silverware and plates, and placed the bodies around the table, with the heads on the plates. And the hands on top of the heads. They couldn't get the babies hands to stay on its head, so they used nails. The cups and bowls were filled with blood.
That scene was left for the men to come back to.
The Contras were directly funded by the US Congress.
Trained right here in the USA.
I guarantee the info in the memo is a tiny part of the story.
Please tell me wtf this has to do with us now.See this what Im talking about You and Space Boy always refer to shit that happened 30.50, or 100 yrs ago.
Wait a minute, the U.S. support of the Contras was under President Reagan and the almighty Olie North, the GOP heroes, this shit didn't happen 100 years ago. Heavy recruitment of Contras mercenaries was conducted by the CIA. It was the U.S. who used these same mercenary forces in Angola. It was the same use of these mercenaries by Blackwater and the CIA that operated within the black prison systems for interrogation of captured or retention suspects under the protection of the U.S. flag.
The Iran-Contra was same era under which the U.S. supplies massive weapons to Iran. Yes, Iran the same country that the Bush/Cheney/Rumsfeld blamed for supplying weapons to the taliban and al-quaeda to kill American soldiers. Isn't that right Mr. Olie (blood-on-your-hands) North!!!
The more memos that come out, only further demonstrates that the Bush administration knowingly used torture in violation of U.S. and international laws and treaties. No matter how you want to play the scrabble word game, they committed war crimes.
SIN EATERS--We take the moral excrement we find in this equation and we bury it down deep inside of us so that the rest of our case can stay pure. That is the job. We are morally indefensible and absolutely necessary.
But from all this dont you think now since they know our techniques we probably wont be able to get info from the terrorist If another attack is in the works?
Psst!!! Did someone forget to tell you WE COPIED THEIR TECHNIQUES, lol.
SIN EATERS--We take the moral excrement we find in this equation and we bury it down deep inside of us so that the rest of our case can stay pure. That is the job. We are morally indefensible and absolutely necessary.
why does the public - NEED - to know this information? Can someone explain it?
We dont, all Obama did by doing this was weaken our defenses
Cool response, I also liked 'A Few Good Men'.
By your logic, I guess you think all police officers are weak because they can't stop a murder before it happens. They are responsible for protecting the people 24/7 and yet crime is still happening on their watch. President Obama, the Pope, any world military, or police officer can't stop a person who wants to kill or die trying.
SIN EATERS--We take the moral excrement we find in this equation and we bury it down deep inside of us so that the rest of our case can stay pure. That is the job. We are morally indefensible and absolutely necessary.
why does the public - NEED - to know this information? Can someone explain it?
The public didn't ask to know, most didn't care to know; and, frankly, the public really didn't care if prisoners were being torture, but the Bush administration got power hungry. It was no longer about prisoners, they changed the name to 'enemy combants' and began rounding up anybody, including citizens from friendly countries. They began threatening American citizens on U.S. soil and dismantling the liberties this nation gave so many father and sons to from the Revolutionary War, the Civil War and two World Worlds.
The Bush administration began to think they were more powerful than the nation they served. They got cocky and in response, the public got curious. Now, as they tried to cover their asses the shit just keeps coming and will continue until there's a sacrificial lamb. (Abram & Scooter)
SIN EATERS--We take the moral excrement we find in this equation and we bury it down deep inside of us so that the rest of our case can stay pure. That is the job. We are morally indefensible and absolutely necessary.
But from all this dont you think now since they know our techniques we probably wont be able to get info from the terrorist If another attack is in the works?
Psst!!! Did someone forget to tell you WE COPIED THEIR TECHNIQUES, lol.
Their techniques? :? :roll: Since when did we start chopping people's heads off ?
I didnt say 100 years. I said 30,50, or 100. Im not going to comment on the Iran contra situation b/c I really don't know a whole lot about it. Im sorry but I really dont think water borting classifies as torture that's my opinion though. Also I can't understand why so many people are more concerned about a terrorist's being subjected to cohurse interrogation who would kill you and your family and not think twice about it. But yet you are more worried about what happens to him. Are you people forgetting these are not American citizens so please tell me why we should abide by the constitution and they are not part of the Geneva convenyion.
This dosent mean I want anybody to be tortured ok. But when it comes down to saving lives in any part of the world !! I could care less what happens to these dirtbags!!
I didnt say 100 years. I said 30,50, or 100. Im not going to comment on the Iran contra situation b/c I really don't know a whole lot about it. Im sorry but I really dont think water borting classifies as torture that's my opinion though. Also I can't understand why so many people are more concerned about a terrorist's being subjected to cohurse interrogation who would kill you and your family and not think twice about it. But yet you are more worried about what happens to him. Are you people forgetting these are not American citizens so please tell me why we should abide by the constitution and they are not part of the Geneva convenyion.
This dosent mean I want anybody to be tortured ok. But when it comes down to saving lives in any part of the world !! I could care less what happens to these dirtbags!!
So, should the Japanese soldiers who waterboarded American soldiers during WWII been given the death penalty? I mean, if we say it is torture when they do it to us...shouldn't it be the same going the other direction?
why does the public - NEED - to know this information? Can someone explain it?
The public didn't ask to know, most didn't care to know; and, frankly, the public really didn't care if prisoners were being torture, but the Bush administration got power hungry. It was no longer about prisoners, they changed the name to 'enemy combants' and began rounding up anybody, including citizens from friendly countries. They began threatening American citizens on U.S. soil and dismantling the liberties this nation gave so many father and sons to from the Revolutionary War, the Civil War and two World Worlds.
The Bush administration began to think they were more powerful than the nation they served. They got cocky and in response, the public got curious. Now, as they tried to cover their asses the shit just keeps coming and will continue until there's a sacrificial lamb. (Abram & Scooter)
Americans should be clear on what Obama has done. In a breath taking display of self righteousness and intellectual arrogance,the president told americans that his personal beliefs are more important than protecting their country,homes,and their families. The Interrogation techniques in question,the pres.asserted,are a sign that americans have lost their " moral compass" a compliment similar to Eric holder's identifying them as "moral cowards" Mulling Obama's claims,one can wonder what can be the more moral for a president than doing all that is needed to defend America and it's citizens ? Or,asked another way,is it moral for him to abandon the intelligence tools that have SAVEDTHE LIVES AND PROPERTY OF AMERICANS AND THEIR ALLIES in favor of his own ideological beliefs.
Before enthroning Obama personal morality as a US defense policy,of course,some dirty work had top be done. Last Sunday, Obama hit man and white House chief of staff Rhame Manual led the charge by telling the american people that the interrogation are a major recruiting tool for AL qaeda and it's partners. Well, no Mr.E that's not it all the case.The techniques surely are not popular with our foes and their supporters---should this be a concern in any event? but they don't even make the islamist hit parade of anti US recruiting tools. That list is headed by Washington's support for Arab tyrannies in Saudi Arabia and Egypt,it's presence on the Arabian peninsula and it's unqualified support for Israel. Still Emmanuel's statement surely surrounded plausible to americans who have received no education about our Islamist enemies true motivation from Obama, G.W.Bush,Clinton,or G.H.W.Bush.
Next the President used his personal popularity and the stature of his office to implicitly identify as liars those former U.S. senior officials who know--not argue "or contend" or "assert" but know that the interrogation techniques have yielded Intel. essential to the nations defense. The integrity,intellect,and reputations of judge M.Mukasey, Gen.M.V. Hayden and others have now been besmirched by Obama b/c their realistic worldview and first hand experience's do not mesh with the Obama's desire to install his personal "MORAL COMPASS' as the core OF U.S. foreign and defense policy.And after visiting CIA headquarters last week ,Obama made it clear that he rejected statements surely made by CIA Officers who risked their careers to tell him how many successful covert operations against Al-Qaeda have flowed from INTERROGATION INFORMATION :shock:
why does the public - NEED - to know this information? Can someone explain it?
The public didn't ask to know, most didn't care to know; and, frankly, the public really didn't care if prisoners were being torture, but the Bush administration got power hungry. It was no longer about prisoners, they changed the name to 'enemy combants' and began rounding up anybody, including citizens from friendly countries. They began threatening American citizens on U.S. soil and dismantling the liberties this nation gave so many father and sons to from the Revolutionary War, the Civil War and two World Worlds.
The Bush administration began to think they were more powerful than the nation they served. They got cocky and in response, the public got curious. Now, as they tried to cover their asses the shit just keeps coming and will continue until there's a sacrificial lamb. (Abram & Scooter)
Americans should be clear on what Obama has done. In a breath taking display of self righteousness and intellectual arrogance,the president told americans that his personal beliefs are more important than protecting their country,homes,and their families. The Interrogation techniques in question,the pres.asserted,are a sign that americans have lost their " moral compass" a compliment similar to Eric holder's identifying them as "moral cowards" Mulling Obama's claims,one can wonder what can be the more moral for a president than doing all that is needed to defend America and it's citizens ? Or,asked another way,is it moral for him to abandon the intelligence tools that have SAVEDTHE LIVES AND PROPERTY OF AMERICANS AND THEIR ALLIES in favor of his own ideological beliefs.
Before enthroning Obama personal morality as a US defense policy,of course,some dirty work had top be done. Last Sunday, Obama hit man and white House chief of staff Rhame Manual led the charge by telling the american people that the interrogation are a major recruiting tool for AL qaeda and it's partners. Well, no Mr.E that's not it all the case.The techniques surely are not popular with our foes and their supporters---should this be a concern in any event? but they don't even make the islamist hit parade of anti US recruiting tools. That list is headed by Washington's support for Arab tyrannies in Saudi Arabia and Egypt,it's presence on the Arabian peninsula and it's unqualified support for Israel. Still Emmanuel's statement surely surrounded plausible to americans who have received no education about our Islamist enemies true motivation from Obama, G.W.Bush,Clinton,or G.H.W.Bush.
Next the President used his personal popularity and the stature of his office to implicitly identify as liars those former U.S. senior officials who know--not argue "or contend" or "assert" but know that the interrogation techniques have yielded Intel. essential to the nations defense. The integrity,intellect,and reputations of judge M.Mukasey, Gen.M.V. Hayden and others have now been besmirched by Obama b/c their realistic worldview and first hand experience's do not mesh with the Obama's desire to install his personal "MORAL COMPASS' as the core OF U.S. foreign and defense policy.And after visiting CIA headquarters last week ,Obama made it clear that he rejected statements surely made by CIA Officers who risked their careers to tell him how many successful covert operations against Al-Qaeda have flowed from INTERROGATION INFORMATION :shock:
When the hell did you turn so wordy? That's a Drifting length post there.
I didnt say 100 years. I said 30,50, or 100. Im not going to comment on the Iran contra situation b/c I really don't know a whole lot about it. Im sorry but I really dont think water borting classifies as torture that's my opinion though. Also I can't understand why so many people are more concerned about a terrorist's being subjected to cohurse interrogation who would kill you and your family and not think twice about it. But yet you are more worried about what happens to him. Are you people forgetting these are not American citizens so please tell me why we should abide by the constitution and they are not part of the Geneva convenyion.
This dosent mean I want anybody to be tortured ok. But when it comes down to saving lives in any part of the world !! I could care less what happens to these dirtbags!!
Because every study ever done shows that information you get from torture is unreliable. Coercive interrogation does not make us any safer. It does not get us better information. And it hurts our credibility and ability to ally ourselves with other countries interested in fighting terrorism, because they don't want to line up with the guys openly advocating torture. That's why I care about what happens to these "dirtbags." It's not making us safer, it's making us less safe.
Before enthroning Obama personal morality as a US defense policy,of course,some dirty work had top be done.
That's rich coming from the supporter of Dubya's attempts to enthrone his personal morality as US domestic and foreign policy with respect to stem cell research, abstinence-only sex ed, and a number of other ridiculous measures.
Americans should be clear on what Obama has done. In a breath taking display of self righteousness and intellectual arrogance,the president told americans that his personal beliefs are more important than protecting their country,homes,and their families. The Interrogation techniques in question,the pres.asserted,are a sign that americans have lost their " moral compass" a compliment similar to Eric holder's identifying them as "moral cowards" Mulling Obama's claims,one can wonder what can be the more moral for a president than doing all that is needed to defend America and it's citizens ? Or,asked another way,is it moral for him to abandon the intelligence tools that have SAVEDTHE LIVES AND PROPERTY OF AMERICANS AND THEIR ALLIES in favor of his own ideological beliefs.
If he is so self righteous and arrogant that he ended US policy of torture, you know I'm really ok with that. If he did it JUST to spite republicans, I would be ok with that too. The point, however you hide it behind partisan BS, is that the policy of torture has (apparently) ended. That's the important thing to get out of all of this.
The rest is distractionary. Equating torture to losing your "moral compass" sounds about right to me, whatever the term implies. But the only way to even enter the above argument is to accept the idea that the US is spreading freedom or democracy, to accept conventional ideology regarding US foreign policy, which I don't subscribe too.
And using the premise "torture saves american lives" requires some proof before its even addressed.
Before enthroning Obama personal morality as a US defense policy,of course,some dirty work had top be done. Last Sunday, Obama hit man and white House chief of staff Rhame Manual led the charge by telling the american people that the interrogation are a major recruiting tool for AL qaeda and it's partners. Well, no Mr.E that's not it all the case.The techniques surely are not popular with our foes and their supporters---should this be a concern in any event? but they don't even make the islamist hit parade of anti US recruiting tools. That list is headed by Washington's support for Arab tyrannies in Saudi Arabia and Egypt,it's presence on the Arabian peninsula and it's unqualified support for Israel. Still Emmanuel's statement surely surrounded plausible to americans who have received no education about our Islamist enemies true motivation from Obama, G.W.Bush,Clinton,or G.H.W.Bush.
the poster (who?) recognizes the motivation behind terrorism, and in the next sentence condones US torture. Strange. If we are causing the attacks in the first place, wouldn't the best way to prevent them be to stop doing whatever it we were doing that caused them? Why bring in more violence, like torture, to solve something we've already caused? It only adds to that mentality of resistance, and yes torture ADDS to that.
Not even I would suggest that US policy is SO bad in Arab countries that torture doesn't even register, that it doesn't even make the recruitment list. Which is what the above states. Torture is shitty. Really really shitty. However they shade it with these press releases and memos, its shitty. You can bet they don't put neck braces on guys before they kick the shit out of them.
Next the President used his personal popularity and the stature of his office to implicitly identify as liars those former U.S. senior officials who know--not argue "or contend" or "assert" but know that the interrogation techniques have yielded Intel. essential to the nations defense. The integrity,intellect,and reputations of judge M.Mukasey, Gen.M.V. Hayden and others have now been besmirched by Obama b/c their realistic worldview and first hand experience's do not mesh with the Obama's desire to install his personal "MORAL COMPASS' as the core OF U.S. foreign and defense policy.And after visiting CIA headquarters last week ,Obama made it clear that he rejected statements surely made by CIA Officers who risked their careers to tell him how many successful covert operations against Al-Qaeda have flowed from INTERROGATION INFORMATION :shock:
Who wrote this?
You know. Lets say they electrocuted some guy for 14 hours a day and didn't let him sleep and starved him to near death in freezing conditions with loud music playing for 6 months straight and at the end of it all he says some of his buddies were about to blow up the capital building.
Chances are the US has already bombed his capital building (you've admitted above that US policy is the cause of terrorism, that is in fact SO bad over there that torture doesn't even make the list). Chances are most every other building in town too. What moral ground are you standing on? Of course they want to kill us, "do unto others". When you start torturing, you become no better than the enemy your claiming to fight. That in fact, it is them who have the moral high ground. Quite the statement, considering we're dealing with religious extremists who blow up innocent people to make a political statement.
Its a cycle of violence. We blow up their buildings and kill their families, they want to do the same to us.
The solution to the situation is not more violence. And this should be obvious. That we are even in this discussion says a lot about US propaganda.
Supporting torture? what in the hell.
That will only encourage them to adopt the same practice.
The solution lies with a fundamental shift in US foreign policy. (which you agreed was the cause of terrorism).
A big first step would be to stop participating in it.
Another would be to address grievances legitimately. They don't want our troops near Mecca, Islam's holiest site. Sounds legitimate. They don't want us arming and giving political support to tyrants and dictators. Seems reasonable. They don' t want us to invade countries and kill hundreds of thousands of innocent people. And on.
But again, all of the above argument takes a few conditions for granted. One, that the US goal is to stop the spread of violence, and 2 US policy accounts for innocent casualties. And implied is a desire on the US part to actually want to end the current status quo.
Which I don't believe are true. Its about resources and control, and US policy has reflected those goals for over 60 years. But from the beginning you've admitted that the US is causing terrorism, so I think you realize that.
(probably just responded to some random plagiarism from perfect lefts, but whatever)
I never said I wrote it. Whenever I try to post a link it says "link broken". :? I wasn't trying to plagiarise anyone commy
Michael Scheuer From The Washington Post did who was head of the Bin Laden Unit In the CIA . But what the hell does he know ? :roll:
I never said I wrote it. Whenever I try to post a link it says "link broken". :? I wasn't trying to plagiarise anyone commy
Michael Scheuer From The Washington Post did who was head of the Bin Laden Unit In the CIA . But what the hell does he know ? :roll:
That if he doesn't keep us jumping at shadows and constantly terrified of our Arabic neighbors we might start to wonder if the CIA really needs all the money we give it and he'll lose his job to budget cuts like everyone else in America?
I didnt say 100 years. I said 30,50, or 100. Im not going to comment on the Iran contra situation b/c I really don't know a whole lot about it. Im sorry but I really dont think water borting classifies as torture that's my opinion though. Also I can't understand why so many people are more concerned about a terrorist's being subjected to cohurse interrogation who would kill you and your family and not think twice about it. But yet you are more worried about what happens to him. Are you people forgetting these are not American citizens so please tell me why we should abide by the constitution and they are not part of the Geneva convenyion.
This dosent mean I want anybody to be tortured ok. But when it comes down to saving lives in any part of the world !! I could care less what happens to these dirtbags!!
Because every study ever done shows that information you get from torture is unreliable. Coercive interrogation does not make us any safer. It does not get us better information. And it hurts our credibility and ability to ally ourselves with other countries interested in fighting terrorism, because they don't want to line up with the guys openly advocating torture. That's why I care about what happens to these "dirtbags." It's not making us safer, it's making us less safe.
so how would you gather Intelligence? everybody seems to think we've been going about it the wrong way yet none of you have any other Ideas
I didnt say 100 years. I said 30,50, or 100. Im not going to comment on the Iran contra situation b/c I really don't know a whole lot about it. Im sorry but I really dont think water borting classifies as torture that's my opinion though. Also I can't understand why so many people are more concerned about a terrorist's being subjected to cohurse interrogation who would kill you and your family and not think twice about it. But yet you are more worried about what happens to him. Are you people forgetting these are not American citizens so please tell me why we should abide by the constitution and they are not part of the Geneva convenyion.
This dosent mean I want anybody to be tortured ok. But when it comes down to saving lives in any part of the world !! I could care less what happens to these dirtbags!!
Because every study ever done shows that information you get from torture is unreliable. Coercive interrogation does not make us any safer. It does not get us better information. And it hurts our credibility and ability to ally ourselves with other countries interested in fighting terrorism, because they don't want to line up with the guys openly advocating torture. That's why I care about what happens to these "dirtbags." It's not making us safer, it's making us less safe.
so how would you gather Intelligence? everybody seems to think we've been going about it the wrong way yet none of you have any other Ideas
The same way we've always done it before we started torturing people. We had the info on 9/11 before it happened, it was just split up amongst so many agencies unwilling to share it lest they lose their "scoop" and thus have budget cuts. There was too much bureaucracy, red tape, and protectionism going on to make sense of the intelligence we had. A lot of that was targeted for reform after 9/11 and so far it appears to be working.
Comments
Lol, did you forget about all the memos being released that authorized these soldiers that are being punished for what they did. The orders came from the top and you completely seem to forget that.
right.
First a war on "terrorism".
Then it was war on "drugs".
Now its war on "terrorism"
Or a war to "liberate" a country. (much like Hitler "liberated" Poland)
Same school different class.
Its always a war on something. And people have such a short memory the US keeps getting away with it.
If more people knew their history, Washington would have a hard time getting involved in third world country every few years.
The goal is always the same, whatever the excuse.
Resources and control.
Why do you think Chavez is a threat? Or Cuba? They are using the resources of their countries to benefit their people, not some foreign corporation. The threat is independence, is in their ability to provide examples to others on how to operate outside of US influence. Resources that benefit the people of the region and not some few individuals? what a concept.
Can't have that.
Why do you think the US has over 700 military bases around the world? Its called empire. And its growing.
But we need to know our history to understand any of that.
So that's why i was bringing things that happened 30 years ago. Because nothing has changed. Still torturing, raping and killing innocent people in the name of liberty or justice or freedom or whatever.
no.
that's the point. its not a few douchebags running around, its policy from Washington.
the douchebag in the abu ghraib abuses had orders. only him. granger or whateve his name is. Its why they refuse to allow him to be interviewed, even today. I've seen interviews with everyone else involved. they had no idea what he was doing at first, but saw he obviously had a plan. he had orders. specific orders. and he was following them
the CIA probably gave the orders, but they are all free to do it again next war.
the rest sit in prison (most of them rightfully so). the soldier who took most of the photos had very little to do with any of the abuse, but she was charged with destruction of a crime scene -she moved a dead guys bandages that were applied post mortem to take a photo. ? the "crime scene" had already been changed, when they put bandages on an already dead guy. and some other equally bs charge. 10 years she got, for taking pictures. something like that.
What? That's kind of what I was referring to. I'm a bit confused as to why you are saying "no" there.
i thought you were suggesting i was saying that it was a few bad apples, not policy, but i was confused, which happens.
you are right, its policy that allows this, not some random bad apples.
carry on.
Well, to be fair, my statement could probably use some rewording to make more sense.
http://wikileaks.org/wiki/US_Justice_to ... 0_May_2005
http://wikileaks.org/wiki/US_Justice_to ... 0_May_2005
http://wikileaks.org/wiki/US_Justice_to ... 0_May_2005
http://wikileaks.org/wiki/US_Justice_to ... 1_Aug_2002
sure sounds like torture to me. Some of it sounds even worse than the popular water boarding.
http://hi-octanecreative.com/__GNN/Sabr ... ctim.jpgok
-US soldier, posing with torture victim. He is dead.
# Dietary manipulation
I don't even want to know what that is.
I don't know offhand or want to know either...I'd imagine it isn't very nutritional.
The way they term it "manipulation".. it sounds like a modified version of a Jenny Craig diet when in reality..
The more you speak... the more you convince me that your 'Uncle' did bad things to your butt when you were 9... didn't he?
Hail, Hail!!!
Is that suppose to make me mad or something ? you just proved what kind of person you really are only a person with a low self image of ones self would resort to statements like that. I know it's easy for you to sit in front of your computer and talk shit all day and not have to see the person face to face cos that's what a real man does right? What if I was molested when I was a kid how would you feel then. probably wouldn't even bother you would it. It's pretty obvious you can't agree to disagree on issues but, do yourself a favor and stop with the personal attacks.
Wait a minute, the U.S. support of the Contras was under President Reagan and the almighty Olie North, the GOP heroes, this shit didn't happen 100 years ago. Heavy recruitment of Contras mercenaries was conducted by the CIA. It was the U.S. who used these same mercenary forces in Angola. It was the same use of these mercenaries by Blackwater and the CIA that operated within the black prison systems for interrogation of captured or retention suspects under the protection of the U.S. flag.
The Iran-Contra was same era under which the U.S. supplies massive weapons to Iran. Yes, Iran the same country that the Bush/Cheney/Rumsfeld blamed for supplying weapons to the taliban and al-quaeda to kill American soldiers. Isn't that right Mr. Olie (blood-on-your-hands) North!!!
The more memos that come out, only further demonstrates that the Bush administration knowingly used torture in violation of U.S. and international laws and treaties. No matter how you want to play the scrabble word game, they committed war crimes.
Psst!!! Did someone forget to tell you WE COPIED THEIR TECHNIQUES, lol.
By your logic, I guess you think all police officers are weak because they can't stop a murder before it happens. They are responsible for protecting the people 24/7 and yet crime is still happening on their watch. President Obama, the Pope, any world military, or police officer can't stop a person who wants to kill or die trying.
The public didn't ask to know, most didn't care to know; and, frankly, the public really didn't care if prisoners were being torture, but the Bush administration got power hungry. It was no longer about prisoners, they changed the name to 'enemy combants' and began rounding up anybody, including citizens from friendly countries. They began threatening American citizens on U.S. soil and dismantling the liberties this nation gave so many father and sons to from the Revolutionary War, the Civil War and two World Worlds.
The Bush administration began to think they were more powerful than the nation they served. They got cocky and in response, the public got curious. Now, as they tried to cover their asses the shit just keeps coming and will continue until there's a sacrificial lamb. (Abram & Scooter)
Their techniques? :? :roll: Since when did we start chopping people's heads off ?
This dosent mean I want anybody to be tortured ok. But when it comes down to saving lives in any part of the world !! I could care less what happens to these dirtbags!!
So, should the Japanese soldiers who waterboarded American soldiers during WWII been given the death penalty? I mean, if we say it is torture when they do it to us...shouldn't it be the same going the other direction?
http://www.reverbnation.com/brianzilm
Americans should be clear on what Obama has done. In a breath taking display of self righteousness and intellectual arrogance,the president told americans that his personal beliefs are more important than protecting their country,homes,and their families. The Interrogation techniques in question,the pres.asserted,are a sign that americans have lost their " moral compass" a compliment similar to Eric holder's identifying them as "moral cowards" Mulling Obama's claims,one can wonder what can be the more moral for a president than doing all that is needed to defend America and it's citizens ? Or,asked another way,is it moral for him to abandon the intelligence tools that have SAVEDTHE LIVES AND PROPERTY OF AMERICANS AND THEIR ALLIES in favor of his own ideological beliefs.
Before enthroning Obama personal morality as a US defense policy,of course,some dirty work had top be done. Last Sunday, Obama hit man and white House chief of staff Rhame Manual led the charge by telling the american people that the interrogation are a major recruiting tool for AL qaeda and it's partners. Well, no Mr.E that's not it all the case.The techniques surely are not popular with our foes and their supporters---should this be a concern in any event? but they don't even make the islamist hit parade of anti US recruiting tools. That list is headed by Washington's support for Arab tyrannies in Saudi Arabia and Egypt,it's presence on the Arabian peninsula and it's unqualified support for Israel. Still Emmanuel's statement surely surrounded plausible to americans who have received no education about our Islamist enemies true motivation from Obama, G.W.Bush,Clinton,or G.H.W.Bush.
Next the President used his personal popularity and the stature of his office to implicitly identify as liars those former U.S. senior officials who know--not argue "or contend" or "assert" but know that the interrogation techniques have yielded Intel. essential to the nations defense. The integrity,intellect,and reputations of judge M.Mukasey, Gen.M.V. Hayden and others have now been besmirched by Obama b/c their realistic worldview and first hand experience's do not mesh with the Obama's desire to install his personal "MORAL COMPASS' as the core OF U.S. foreign and defense policy.And after visiting CIA headquarters last week ,Obama made it clear that he rejected statements surely made by CIA Officers who risked their careers to tell him how many successful covert operations against Al-Qaeda have flowed from INTERROGATION INFORMATION :shock:
When the hell did you turn so wordy? That's a Drifting length post there.
http://www.reverbnation.com/brianzilm
There are several four/five syllable words in that post....he didn't write it
Because every study ever done shows that information you get from torture is unreliable. Coercive interrogation does not make us any safer. It does not get us better information. And it hurts our credibility and ability to ally ourselves with other countries interested in fighting terrorism, because they don't want to line up with the guys openly advocating torture. That's why I care about what happens to these "dirtbags." It's not making us safer, it's making us less safe.
That's rich coming from the supporter of Dubya's attempts to enthrone his personal morality as US domestic and foreign policy with respect to stem cell research, abstinence-only sex ed, and a number of other ridiculous measures.
If he is so self righteous and arrogant that he ended US policy of torture, you know I'm really ok with that. If he did it JUST to spite republicans, I would be ok with that too. The point, however you hide it behind partisan BS, is that the policy of torture has (apparently) ended. That's the important thing to get out of all of this.
The rest is distractionary. Equating torture to losing your "moral compass" sounds about right to me, whatever the term implies. But the only way to even enter the above argument is to accept the idea that the US is spreading freedom or democracy, to accept conventional ideology regarding US foreign policy, which I don't subscribe too.
And using the premise "torture saves american lives" requires some proof before its even addressed.
the poster (who?) recognizes the motivation behind terrorism, and in the next sentence condones US torture. Strange. If we are causing the attacks in the first place, wouldn't the best way to prevent them be to stop doing whatever it we were doing that caused them? Why bring in more violence, like torture, to solve something we've already caused? It only adds to that mentality of resistance, and yes torture ADDS to that.
Not even I would suggest that US policy is SO bad in Arab countries that torture doesn't even register, that it doesn't even make the recruitment list. Which is what the above states. Torture is shitty. Really really shitty. However they shade it with these press releases and memos, its shitty. You can bet they don't put neck braces on guys before they kick the shit out of them.
Who wrote this?
You know. Lets say they electrocuted some guy for 14 hours a day and didn't let him sleep and starved him to near death in freezing conditions with loud music playing for 6 months straight and at the end of it all he says some of his buddies were about to blow up the capital building.
Chances are the US has already bombed his capital building (you've admitted above that US policy is the cause of terrorism, that is in fact SO bad over there that torture doesn't even make the list). Chances are most every other building in town too. What moral ground are you standing on? Of course they want to kill us, "do unto others". When you start torturing, you become no better than the enemy your claiming to fight. That in fact, it is them who have the moral high ground. Quite the statement, considering we're dealing with religious extremists who blow up innocent people to make a political statement.
Its a cycle of violence. We blow up their buildings and kill their families, they want to do the same to us.
The solution to the situation is not more violence. And this should be obvious. That we are even in this discussion says a lot about US propaganda.
Supporting torture? what in the hell.
That will only encourage them to adopt the same practice.
The solution lies with a fundamental shift in US foreign policy. (which you agreed was the cause of terrorism).
A big first step would be to stop participating in it.
Another would be to address grievances legitimately. They don't want our troops near Mecca, Islam's holiest site. Sounds legitimate. They don't want us arming and giving political support to tyrants and dictators. Seems reasonable. They don' t want us to invade countries and kill hundreds of thousands of innocent people. And on.
But again, all of the above argument takes a few conditions for granted. One, that the US goal is to stop the spread of violence, and 2 US policy accounts for innocent casualties. And implied is a desire on the US part to actually want to end the current status quo.
Which I don't believe are true. Its about resources and control, and US policy has reflected those goals for over 60 years. But from the beginning you've admitted that the US is causing terrorism, so I think you realize that.
(probably just responded to some random plagiarism from perfect lefts, but whatever)
Michael Scheuer From The Washington Post did who was head of the Bin Laden Unit In the CIA . But what the hell does he know ? :roll:
That if he doesn't keep us jumping at shadows and constantly terrified of our Arabic neighbors we might start to wonder if the CIA really needs all the money we give it and he'll lose his job to budget cuts like everyone else in America?
so how would you gather Intelligence? everybody seems to think we've been going about it the wrong way yet none of you have any other Ideas
The same way we've always done it before we started torturing people. We had the info on 9/11 before it happened, it was just split up amongst so many agencies unwilling to share it lest they lose their "scoop" and thus have budget cuts. There was too much bureaucracy, red tape, and protectionism going on to make sense of the intelligence we had. A lot of that was targeted for reform after 9/11 and so far it appears to be working.