Release The CIA Memo's
WaveCameCrashin
Posts: 2,929
Since Obama administration released the memos on the methods they used to extract information then shouldn't they release what info they got and what they didn't. It's documented in the memos that they did stop a second wave of attacks (flying planes into the Library tower in L.A.) from water borting Khalid sheik Mohamed,The Master mind of 911. IMO I really think this is a bad move on Obama and didn't he say that we were going to move forward in his first press conference and he was not going to pursue criminal charges. I really think this is going to have disastrous consequence's. I hope Im wrong.
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It all comes down to perspective.. from which vantage point you stand... but, overall, from a non-objective viewpoint... it is all the same. If you condone the act of doing whatever it takes to extract information from people suspected to do harm to the people whom you govern... then, you must support the methods Saddam Hussein used in order to extract information from people in his country who were doing the same thing... trying to inflict harm to the people of Hussein's regime. It can be said that Hussein ALSO stopped acts of terrorism in his country by using torture to get people to give up the names, therfore, it was justified.
It can also be argued that it is okay for the people who capture our military people to torture them to get strategic or tactical information. We don't condone that... we condemn that. but, by saying it's okay for us to do it.. it is saying it's okay for them to do it, too.
And what i don't understand is all of the anger about the release of the memos. I feel the acts of torture are far worse on the image if America... than the admission of guilt for doing such things.
To me... personally... the good guys don't torture. Because when they do, they become the same as the bad guys.
Hail, Hail!!!
you are painting way to broad of a brush. saddam and the US didnt use the "same" techniques. its very easy to support one and not the other...here is a post of mine in another thread regarding this...
we are talking about different levels of torture IMO. water boarding is far less hurtful that whats been reported by Saddam's henchmen.
http://archives.tcm.ie/businesspost/200 ... 592643.asp
Victims described how they were beaten with canes,whips, hosepipes and metal rods, and how other victims were forced to watch as their family members were tortured in front of them.
In a report dated February 11, Amnesty said other methods of physical torture de-scribed by victims include the use of falaqa (beating on the soles of the feet), extinguishing of cigarettes on various parts of the body, extraction of fingernails and toenails and piercing of the hands with an electric drill.
Some victims - both male and female - were sexually abused. Others had objects, including broken bottles, inserted into their bodies.
In addition to physical torture, detainees have been threatened with rape and subjected to mock execution. "They have been placed in cells where they could hear the screams of others being tortured and have been deprived of sleep," said the Amnesty report.
Some were kept in solitary confinement for long periods. "Detainees have also been threatened with bringing in a female relative, especially the wife or the mother, and raping her in front of the detainee. Some of these threats have been carried out."
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AND why were they tortured??...."Many victims of torture have been Shi'a Muslims suspected of anti-government activities."
all that torture listed above was punishment for simply being "suspected" of disagreeing with Saddam. that really puts it in prospective.
torture is a touchy subject and I've researched it alot lately. there are definitely 2 sides to the story in terms of so called American "torture".
If indeed it is credible, accurate information then no they can't release it as that would be classified information.
The question is; Was the information actually good or was it just fabricated by someone who just wanted to stop being tortured? You can torture someone all you want, but if they don't have the information that you want, it doesn't help. In fact, they will probably just make something up so you will stop torturing them.
On the other hand, if they do have the information that doesn't mean they won't just make something up to stop the torture. In other words, torture doesn't always work and therefore shouldn't be a means of investigation.
Obama did say he would not seek prosecution of those who commited torture, which to me was really disappointing. However, from what I understand the Attorney General Eric Holder is opening an investigation of the officials who were responsible for the policy. It's unlikely anybody will be prosecuted.
There's an article that casts serious doubts on whether or not we actually foiled a plot to attack the Library Tower. There are quite a few counterterrorism experts who had doubts about it.
Article: http://www.smh.com.au/news/world/bush-s ... 03036.html
Sorry but Im sticking to what the memos say ,I don't have much faith in an op ed piece from an Aussie news paper :roll:
Dude, I saw that episode of "24" too. That was a good one.
http://www.reverbnation.com/brianzilm
Whether any more memos are released or not. Whether or not President Obama, DOJ or Congress pursues these allegations any further. Those memos that have been released and by Cheney's own admission, the U.S. used torture which is a war crime.
The disastrous consequence is that Cheney seems to have a vengeful obsession to prove he is not a failure. In Cheney's narcissistic, napoleon ramblings, his mentality is set on that fact that, he and he alone protected America. I sincerely believe he has the will and capability of planning and implementing an attack on America just to prove to the world that he was right and President Obama is wrong and weak.
sorry smart ass I dont watch 24 ,all you guys never have any solutions to any of these issues you just like to bash people that disagree with you.
Well how the hell can they be war crimes when they the terrorist don't belong to the Geneva convention ?
Look I don't think people should be tortured but I also don't think we should be playing patty cake with these guys either. You think Chenny has the ability to launch an attack on america
The Geneva conventions didn't include everyone on the planet "except terrorists"
There were no exceptions.
And who gets to decide who the terrorists are? Or what terrorism means?
Last I checked the 'good guys' were at the top of list with 'violence against civilians for political gain', basically the webster dictionary definition of terrorism.
That is the general point I'm trying to make... that anyone can justify torture... but, it doesn't make it right. Whether it's Hussein's justification for weeding out dissidents or us trying to extract information from detainees. Both sides can justify their reasons by saying the people being tortured deserved it for being enemies of the state. if you can justify your reasoning, then you can justify theirs.
To me... we are Americans. We are not the Soviets... and we are not the Iraqis under Hussein's regime. We despise those whom torture... yet, when we do it ourselves, we accept and utilize Hussein's reasoning... we become more like the enemy we are trying to defeat.
Hail, Hail!!!
How do we know? I'm pretty certain that they would admit to shooting Kennedy if it gets you to stop torturing them.
Hail, Hail!!!
How would you KNOW the person you are questioning has information on an impending attack? The only way you would know.. without him offering up the information... is E.S.P.
I do not soley blame the people who were doing the torturing... I blame the authority that allows America to act like the Soviet Union. But, I don't buy the, 'I vas jes following orders' excuse. I refuse to buy it from the defendants at Nuremburg and I refuse to accept it from the people in Washington.
Hail, Hail!!!
You are missing the point. You are only fixating on one thing... justifying the use of torture.
By your excusing our use of torture... you are basically okaying the act of torture. You try to justify it by saying we have to use it. But, in sayng so... you are saying that it was okay to Iraqis under Hussein to accept the torture of his dissidents... for the people of the former Soviet Union to justify the agents of KGB to torture... for the German people of the Third Reich to excuse the torture inflicted by the SS... for the religious people of Spain to justify the use of torture during the Inquisition... for the citizens of the Roman Empire to agree with torture.
All i am saying is that we are Americans. We're suppose to be the good guys. Since when do the good guys resort to the same tactics as the bad guys?
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Justify all you want... torture is torture. The only difference is on which side of the act you are on.
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And honestly... i don't know why I even bother to try to explain this to you. You are obviously on one track and apparently incapable of even trying to see anything other than what you believe. Trying to talk to you is... well, torture.
Hail, Hail!!!
I understand what you are saying but "torture" needs to be put into context. There is never justification for raping and beating someone with canes, whips, hosepipes and metal rods for something as inconsequential as (allegedly) speaking out against the government.
on the flip side, one can make a good case to justify "enhanced interrogations methods" of a prisoner who is DIRECTLY involved in killing innocent civilians and has DIRECT knowledge of future attacks. its the governments job to protect its citizens.
and it should also be noted (according to the memo) that each detainee who was subject to these interrogations were evaluated by medical and physiological professionals to ensure they were not likely to suffer any severe physical or mental pain or suffering. these medical professionals were also on scene during these interrogations to ensure their safety.
I'm not making this up, its right in the memo. look, I'm not condoning torture...I'm just trying to put it in context compared to Saddam, the Soviets, etc.
I understand the requirements they are looking to fufill... acquiring information that will lead to the planning of the next attack so it can be stopped and lives can be saved. I also believe that is a high priority. But, you want to make sure you have the right person, with the right information... and he gives up that correct information. That is the tough part.
It's a fine line you walk between protecting your people and using whatever means is necessary . But, you run the risk of becoming the evil you are seeking to defeat. It feel that it is more important that we secure the principles of our nation, than sell her soul to Satan in the name of National Security.
The way I see it... torture is torture. For example, if it were being done to you, you may accept the water boarding to a caning... but the bottom line... they are STILL torturing you. And the 'Humanitarian Torture' thing also works both ways... you can claim that you are caring for the health and well being of the detainee... when your real reasoning is to make sure he doesn't die on you because you understand that dead men tell no tales.
Also, the examples I point out are not based upon their methods... rather the rationale used to exercise the means they used to justify the ends. The KGB, for example, did the same things to the Mujahadin in Afghanistan in the 1980s. We are taking a page right out of their playbook. The way that one panned out... they swept up detainees from the field and tortured them in order to protect their soldiers who were being targeted by hit and run insurgents who were blowing up their convoys. But, they never caught the 'Freedom Fighter's' leader... Usama bin Laden. So, how good was the information they received?
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So.. for me... yes, information attained is good... as long as the information is good information and useful information. For all we know, the John Belushi looking sheik gave up information on low level bullshit (but actual attacks, such as the previously mentioned attack on the L.A. Central Library... which, by the way... the Library? Really? What... do the terrorist want to kill as little people as possible... or the highest amount of homeless?). When the high value attack... the one that hits the New York city subway system during rush hour... remains secure in his head. We just don't know for sure.
How do we solve it? Good police work. A co-ordinated effort from ALL law enforcement. We had all the precise and correct information we needed to prevent the attacks... but, the law enforcement in Florida, Michigan, New York and Washington failed to share it with anyone because they wanted the credit for any arrest they could come up with.
Hail, Hail!!!
Slip of the mouse click... my bad.
Hail, Hail!!!
Just know that every man tortured in a cell in some dungeon ...every time that happens, it gives the forces fighting US troops a reason to fight. A perfectly good reason to fight.
And that list about waterboarding and walling, released by the Obama administration is bullshit.
Torture is torture. They don't put a neck brace on a guy before they slam him into a wall...that is the stupidest thing i have ever heard...they sodomize people with nightsticks...they beat them senseless, they electrocute them, sometimes they die. Broken bones, cuts, broken jaws, broken teeth. its not regulated like they would have you believe with the release of the information. and lot of guys are literally tortured to death.
Here's torture, and i'm betting not many people here have seen the following pictures.
They are all very disturbing.
http://www.clintonfein.com/torture/imag ... -large.jpg
New from Abu Ghraib-
http://www.informationclearinghouse.inf ... raib_4.jpg
http://www.informationclearinghouse.inf ... hraib6.jpg
http://www.informationclearinghouse.inf ... x375,0.jpg
And probably the most disturbing
http://www.antiwar.com/photos/perm/ag20.jpg
yes that's blood, a lot of blood. And yes those are drag marks from the body they pulled out of the cell. The guy didn't survive that session.
how do you know it's bullshit ? did you get briefed on it by the white house? :roll: Abu ghraib ? those soldiers are being punished for what they did and we all know that. these pics do nothing but make things worse. You make it sound like all the troops partake in these things when you know goddamn well they dont. Nobody died so quit making this shit up Pinko.
if you seriously think we put neck braces on these guys before kicking the shit out of them I don't know what to tell you.
Do your own research. I did.
Like the Contras?
Have you even heard about those guys?
They make Al-Quaeda look like a bunch of pussies.
Dropping pregnant women out of helicopters into villages, torture you can't imagine, burning people alive in front of their families, killing babies and displaying their bodies...
Here's a story about these guys...and I can provide a source if you want, its not propaganda, as hard to believe as it seems
The Contras were directly funded by the US Congress.
Trained right here in the USA.
I guarantee the info in the memo is a tiny part of the story.
The daily beating by your brothers... okay... that explains the permanent brain damage and your inability to engage in a reasoned debate.
Hail, Hail!!!
The only people with any brain damage are you and PINKO.
Reasoned debate on AMT? yeah right... since when have you ever made any sense. Not once have you ever given any solutions on this topic. It's just were the bad guys you seem to think making some one just a little uncomfortable classifies as torture and then you point to the Soviets, the Germans,and all this other B.S. that has nothing to do with the issue. so let me ask you this. When we get hit again Wtf are you going to say then. What kind of bull shit will you come up with. Your post are about as pointless and dumb as that avatar you got .
We dont, all Obama did by doing this was weaken our defenses
Please tell me wtf this has to do with us now.See this what Im talking about You and Space Boy always refer to shit that happened 30.50, or 100 yrs ago.