Cheney - shut up or take the witness stand

Commy

cropduster82 wrote:

Look, we can go back and forth. Bottom line is no matter who is president, Democrat or Republican, there will always be groups of people out there who will try to kill us or bring our country down. Unfortunately, people will ultimately just point the blame to Washington and our leaders as opposed to the groups responsible.

.../.

Say an arab country had an army in the US, and was supporting some a King that ruled here. who was kind of a dick and killed a lot of dissidents, people like the tea party goers and antiwar activists.

And say,in response to that, someone from this country got a bunch of friends together and blew up some buildings in that arab country.


The guys that blew up the building are responsible for the people they killed, but it at least provides some context for the motivation behind the bombing in the first place. Those guys probably wouldn't have bothered if if the Arab country never got involved in the first place.

Take away the motivation for the attacks, chances are you eliminate the attacks themselves.

less troops. less war. not more.

youngster

Commy wrote:

cropduster82 wrote:

Look, we can go back and forth. Bottom line is no matter who is president, Democrat or Republican, there will always be groups of people out there who will try to kill us or bring our country down. Unfortunately, people will ultimately just point the blame to Washington and our leaders as opposed to the groups responsible.

.../.

Say an arab country had an army in the US, and was supporting some a King that ruled here. who was kind of a dick and killed a lot of dissidents, people like the tea party goers and antiwar activists.

And say,in response to that, someone from this country got a bunch of friends together and blew up some buildings in that arab country.


The guys that blew up the building are responsible for the people they killed, but it at least provides some context for the motivation behind the bombing in the first place. Those guys probably wouldn't have bothered if if the Arab country never got involved in the first place.

Take away the motivation for the attacks, chances are you eliminate the attacks themselves.

less troops. less war. not more.

I agree with you there.

Austicman

Lessons were not learnt by the US from Britain. They locked the Guilford four and the Birmingham Six away for years on false confessions(and faslefied evidence) extracted while being tortured. Torturing someone doesn't get you the information you want. It will get you the information you want to hear.

The Geneva convention was put in place for all human beings. The minute you disregard it is the moment you become like the terrorist organisation you trying to stop. Prisioners of War have rights. Iraq is a war, Afganistan is war. Any prisoners captured have rights. You can keep them prisioner until the conflict is resolved but you cannot torture or abuse them. The US will down in history just like the Japanese in WW2 as abusers of those basic human rights. I'm sure there'll be plenty of you out there who are OK with that or just don't care but you cannot proclaim to police the world(which you do) and then make up your own rules as you go along and think the rest of the world is going to say OK cool.

Trying to justify any kind of abuse of prisioners is just utter fucking bullshit.

You'll say that the taking down of the World trade Centre/Pentagon is an act of terrorism but turn around and level the financial centre and the military headquarters of any country your invading, all the while saying that civillian calualties are inevidable. Reeks of hypocrisy.

Byrnzie

prfctlefts wrote:

Its called war commy and Innocent people get killed it happens .

It happens when flag-sucking morons swallow the lies they're told by their governments with the aid of a subservient, non-functioning media.
I don't support the death penalty, but seeing as Bush and Cheney do, and seeing as the death penalty still operates in Texas, then these two lying scumbags should be sent to the chair.

You think that a handful of Saudi Arabian terrorists killing 3000 Americans justifies invading Iraq and killing over 1 Million civilians? You think it justifies tearing up the constitution and pissing on the Geneva convention?

You want to know a better way to prevent terrorism? Stop participating in it and fueling it across the globe.

WaveCameCrashin

Byrnzie wrote:

prfctlefts wrote:

Its called war commy and Innocent people get killed it happens .

It happens when flag-sucking morons swallow the lies they're told by their governments with the aid of a subservient, non-functioning media.
I don't support the death penalty, but seeing as Bush and Cheney do, and seeing as the death penalty still operates in Texas, then these two lying scumbags should be sent to the chair.

You think that a handful of Saudi Arabian terrorists killing 3000 Americans justifies invading Iraq and killing over 1 Million civilians? You think it justifies tearing up the constitution and pissing on the Geneva convention?

You want to know a better way to prevent terrorism? Stop participating in it and fueling it across the globe.

why didnt you post the whole comment I made instead of making me sound like I could care less about innocent civilians. I guess that's typical of a left wing loon.
Lets get something straight First off who the fuck ars you calling a flag sucking moron and Im willing to bet you wouldn't have the balls to say that to a soldier or a vet cos he or she would hand them back to you in a dogie bag. 2nd 911 is not why we invaded Iraq. Saddam violated 17 sanctions and the US along with other countries thought he had wmd's and it was post 911 People like you have been using that same number 1,000,000 for how many years now? So we all know that's not true and for you to say something like Bush and Cheney should be sent to the chair just goes to show what kind of person you are. You Want to disagree with the war and policies of the past admin that's fine you have every right. But the death Penalty ? :roll: and Alqeda dosent belong to the Geneva convention. also it says that you have to be in a uniform when fighting and you have to be fighting for a country not a perverted form of religion and please tell me how we are ripping up the constitution.Detainees at gitmo get treated 100 time better than our own prisoners do.I find it funny how no one on the board even commented on the national Geo doc on git mo. Could it be that it proved a lot of people were wrong? Probably

Commy

Byrnzie wrote:

You want to know a better way to prevent terrorism? Stop participating in it and fueling it across the globe.

yes

Austicman wrote:

Trying to justify any kind of abuse of prisioners is just utter fucking bullshit.

yes

Byrnzie

prfctlefts wrote:

Saddam violated 17 sanctions and the US along with other countries thought he had wmd's

'The U.S' and 'other countries' you say? Actually, I don't think anyone genuinely thought Iraq had W.M.D's. The U.S and British governments knew perfectly well that Iraq had no W.M.D's before the invasion, as was made clear a couple of years ago with the release of the 'secret Downing Street memo':

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/u ... 387374.ece

23 July 2002
'...Military action was now seen as inevitable. Bush wanted to remove Saddam, through military action, justified by the conjunction of terrorism and WMD. But the intelligence and facts were being fixed around the policy...'

You should also take a look at some of the PNAC statements a year or two before the invasion of Iraq which state clearly that Iraq possessed no WMD's.

prfctlefts wrote:

People like you have been using that same number 1,000,000 for how many years now? So we all know that's not true

People like me and 'The Lancet'; one of the oldest and most respected scientific medical journals in the world. Out of all the Iraqi casualty surveys so far, only the Lancet surveys and the Iraq Family Health Survey were peer-reviewed.

LANCET REPORT CO-AUTHOR RESPONDS TO QUESTIONS
http://www.medialens.org/alerts/06/0610 ... author.php

prfctlefts wrote:

and for ou to say something like Bush and Cheney should be sent to the chair just goes to show what kind of person you are. You Want to disagree with the war and policies of the past admin that's fine you have every right. But the death Penalty ? :roll:

I'm against the death penalty, as I said above. Both Bush and Cheney are in favour of the death penalty. Bush and Cheney are both criminals who are responsible for the deaths of over a million people. Therefore let the fuckers reap what they sow.

prfctlefts wrote:

and Alqeda dosent belong to the Geneva convention.

Neither do those responsible for extreme rendition and Abu Ghraib.

prfctlefts wrote:

also it says that you have to be in a uniform when fighting and you have to be fighting for a country not a perverted form of religion and please tell me how we are ripping up the constitution. Detainees at gitmo get treated 100 time better than our own prisoners do.

Righteo.

prfctlefts wrote:

I find it funny how no one on the board even commented on the national Geo doc on git mo. Could it be that it proved a lot of people were wrong? Probably

So now Nat Geographic have got the bottom line on on Gitmo, human rights and torture? Interesting.
I've not seen the documentary so I'll let someone else comment on it.

WaveCameCrashin

The source you posted said 655,000 as of mach 2003, that's just over a 1/2 million.

and now it's 09, so you figured you would just add another 345,000 huh?

Let me ask you this Why are we responsible for all the suicide bombers,we didnt make those dumb asses strap on a vest and tell them to go down to the market and blow up Innocent Iraqis? Did you ever think that If Saddam would have just surrendered like he was asked to things might have turned out differently ? Also Saddam feared Iran more than he did us and that's why he wanted everyone to think that he had wmd's

Byrnzie

prfctlefts wrote:

The source you posted said 655,000 as of mach 2003, that's just over a 1/2 million.

and now it's 09, so you figured you would just add another 345,000 huh?

I said 1 million because the authors of the report stated that the the figure of 655,000 was a conservative estimate due to the fact that they weren't able to complete a full survey per capita in Iraq, and that they believed the number to be closer to 1 million.
I also said 1 million based on the following 2007 survey:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ORB_survey ... casualties
'On Friday, 14 September 2007, ORB (Opinion Research Business), an independent polling agency located in London, published estimates of the total war casualties in Iraq since the US-led invasion of Iraq in 2003.[1] At over 1.2 million deaths (1,220,580), this estimate is the highest number published so far. From the poll margin of error of +/-2.5% ORB calculated a range of 733,158 to 1,446,063 deaths. The ORB estimate was performed by a random survey of 1,720 adults aged 18+, out of which 1,499 responded, in fifteen of the eighteen governorates within Iraq, between August 12 and August 19, 2007.[2][3] In comparison, the 2006 Lancet survey suggested almost half this number (654,965 deaths) through the end of June 2006. The Lancet authors calculated a range of 392,979 to 942,636 deaths.

On 28 January 2008, ORB published an update based on additional work carried out in rural areas of Iraq. Some 600 additional interviews were undertaken and as a result of this the death estimate was revised to 1,033,000 with a given range of 946,000 to 1,120,000.[4]'

'

prfctlefts wrote:

Let me ask you this Why are we responsible for all the suicide bombers,we didnt make those dumb asses strap on a vest and tell them to go down to the market and blow up Innocent Iraqis?

Because we destabilised the country by tearing it to pieces. The break-up of Iraq and the ensuing chaos and civil war was predicted beforehand by Middle East Analysts and was ignored by Bush et al.

prfctlefts wrote:

Did you ever think that If Saddam would have just surrendered like he was asked to things might have turned out differently ? Also Saddam feared Iran more than he did us and that's why he wanted everyone to think that he had wmd's

Did you ever think that if the U.S and British governments hadn't deliberately lied to the populations of their respective countries, if they had allowed the weapons inspectors to finish their jobs, and that if they had abided by international law instead of side-stepping it, that over 1 million Iraqi's and 4000 American servicemen and women would still be alive?

WaveCameCrashin

flywallyfly wrote:

prfctlefts wrote:

JB811 wrote:

I have no problem with people like Khalid Sheikh Mohammed being tortured.

Isn't it fucked up how these people would kill any of us and our families yet we got people like Pinko and space boy sticking up for them. :?

He is sticking up for the principles this nation is supposed to be based on but that is beyond you because you would have to use reasoning instead of anger to understand this.

No anger just common sense, which obviously isn't that common anymore
My principles have to with saving lives not sticking up for killers. what are yours?

Byrnzie

prfctlefts wrote:

My principles have to with saving lives not sticking up for killers. what are yours?

Yet you'll stick up for killers and torturers if they happen to be wearing U.S army uniforms?

flywallyfly

prfctlefts wrote:

flywallyfly wrote:

Isn't it fucked up how these people would kill any of us and our families yet we got people like Pinko and space boy sticking up for them. :?

He is sticking up for the principles this nation is supposed to be based on but that is beyond you because you would have to use reasoning instead of anger to understand this.

" No anger just common sense, which obviously isn't that common anymore
My principles have to with saving lives not sticking up for killers. what are yours?"

My principles dont include cheering for torture because it might make me feel safe from the boogeyman (which it doesnt).

dcfaithful

Byrnzie wrote:

prfctlefts wrote:

My principles have to with saving lives not sticking up for killers. what are yours?

Yet you'll stick up for killers and torturers if they happen to be wearing U.S army uniforms.

Beautiful. Just beautiful.

Also I jsut have to say prfctlfts, isn't it possible to have a debate without being condescending and calling people names? This isn't grade school man, debate respectfully. If you can't adhere by the rules on this board, then you shouldn't post.

Sorry everybody, not trying to stick up for you, but I just can't ignore the juvenile tactics of discussion.

Commy

prfctlefts wrote:

My principles have to with saving lives not sticking up for killers.

if your goal involves "saving lives" maybe apologizing for the biggest killer of them all isn't the best way to go about it.

Anon

And who is the biggest killer of them all?

Commy

JB811 wrote:

And who is the biggest killer of them all?

the one that has invaded more countries than any other nation on the planet since WWII, and has its fingers in every corner of the globe.


good ole USA.


from supporting dictators in the middle east and south america (the US bears a lot of responsibility to their victims) to implementing international trade policy that is leaving 11-13 million people starving or dying from easily curable diseases (according to the UN). to outright invasions, another category the US leads in, since WWII.

No country on earth compares, nobody affects as much of the world as out policies do.


not an opinion.

Anon

And in which country do you reside?

Commy

Commy wrote:

good ole USA.

WaveCameCrashin

Commy wrote:

prfctlefts wrote:

My principles have to with saving lives not sticking up for killers.

if your goal involves "saving lives" maybe apologizing for the biggest killer of them all isn't the best way to go about it.

were the biggest killer :?
sure commy whatever you say. :roll:

Commy

prfctlefts wrote:

Commy wrote:

prfctlefts wrote:

My principles have to with saving lives not sticking up for killers.

if your goal involves "saving lives" maybe apologizing for the biggest killer of them all isn't the best way to go about it.

were the biggest killer :?
sure commy whatever you say. :roll:

look at the facts. this one isn't too complicated.

The US spends about as much on its military as the rest of the world combined. They label it "defense:"which lets them kick it back to any number of repressive regimes around the world.

but just think about that for a second. The US spends more on weapons and planes and tanks than ALL of Europe, Russia and China combined.

notice we aren't arming countries that want peace. the countries we support inevitably have high resources, low minimum wages, and a horrible human rights record. In fact there is a direct ratio between US aid and human rights abuses. And probably a ratio linking resources and US interest, though I doubt anyone has bothered to figure it out.


Pinochet, Papa Doc Duvalier and Saddam Hussein were all US clients at one time. google them, its important. no country on earth compares to the US when it comes to human rights abuses...and like i mentioned, i can prove it.