Isn't it fucked up how these people would kill any of us and our families yet we got people like Pinko and space boy sticking up for them. :?
He is sticking up for the principles this nation is supposed to be based on but that is beyond you because you would have to use reasoning instead of anger to understand this.
" No anger just common sense, which obviously isn't that common anymore
My principles have to with saving lives not sticking up for killers. what are yours?"
My principles dont include cheering for torture because it might make me feel safe from the boogeyman (which it doesnt).
My principles have to with saving lives not sticking up for killers. what are yours?
Yet you'll stick up for killers and torturers if they happen to be wearing U.S army uniforms.
Beautiful. Just beautiful.
Also I jsut have to say prfctlfts, isn't it possible to have a debate without being condescending and calling people names? This isn't grade school man, debate respectfully. If you can't adhere by the rules on this board, then you shouldn't post.
Sorry everybody, not trying to stick up for you, but I just can't ignore the juvenile tactics of discussion.
7/2/06 - Denver, CO
6/12/08 - Tampa, FL
8/23/09 - Chicago, IL
9/28/09 - Salt Lake City, UT (11 years too long!!!)
9/03/11 - East Troy, WI - PJ20 - Night 1
9/04/11 - East Troy, WI - PJ20 - Night 2
the one that has invaded more countries than any other nation on the planet since WWII, and has its fingers in every corner of the globe.
good ole USA.
from supporting dictators in the middle east and south america (the US bears a lot of responsibility to their victims) to implementing international trade policy that is leaving 11-13 million people starving or dying from easily curable diseases (according to the UN). to outright invasions, another category the US leads in, since WWII.
No country on earth compares, nobody affects as much of the world as out policies do.
My principles have to with saving lives not sticking up for killers.
if your goal involves "saving lives" maybe apologizing for the biggest killer of them all isn't the best way to go about it.
were the biggest killer :?
sure commy whatever you say. :roll:
look at the facts. this one isn't too complicated.
The US spends about as much on its military as the rest of the world combined. They label it "defense:"which lets them kick it back to any number of repressive regimes around the world.
but just think about that for a second. The US spends more on weapons and planes and tanks than ALL of Europe, Russia and China combined.
notice we aren't arming countries that want peace. the countries we support inevitably have high resources, low minimum wages, and a horrible human rights record. In fact there is a direct ratio between US aid and human rights abuses. And probably a ratio linking resources and US interest, though I doubt anyone has bothered to figure it out.
Pinochet, Papa Doc Duvalier and Saddam Hussein were all US clients at one time. google them, its important. no country on earth compares to the US when it comes to human rights abuses...and like i mentioned, i can prove it.
You know what commy ? I dont think you have ever had one positive thing to say about america. Sure past administrations have made hudge mistakes, but what good does it do when we dwell on the past and point fingers.We cant' change it. So why dont you try offering up some solutions for a change and stop bashig our country.
You know what commy ? I dont think you have ever had one positive thing to say about america. Sure past administrations have made hudge mistakes, but what good does it do when we dwell on the past and point fingers.We cant' change it. So why dont you try offering up some solutions for a change and stop bashig our country.
we can change it. that's the point of all of this.
the line "change don't come from one its a wave...building before it breaks"
has everything to do with this.
and i know this is a message board that 5 people read, fuck all that....if 1 person comes away saying, "you know that's kind of fucked up" it will have been worth it.
its how i am in the real world. and i know i've affect people around me.
its like the civil rights movement. if they would have said "ah fuck it, lets not be so negative," they would still be second class citizens. it took people railing against the system to eachother, for over a century, 100 years of it, before martin luther king was even able to rise up and lead everyone to equality. through dogs and firehoses and bullets and batons- but they won.
and we will too. this movement is worldwide. people are tired of this , this is not the way we're wired....to kill and take and conquer and control.. its not the way its gonna be for long.
but it takes people understanding what's wrong before it can be changed.
education leads to action which leads to change. and it will change.
You know what commy ? I dont think you have ever had one positive thing to say about america. Sure past administrations have made hudge mistakes, but what good does it do when we dwell on the past and point fingers.We cant' change it. So why dont you try offering up some solutions for a change and stop bashig our country.
we can change it. that's the point of all of this.
the line "change don't come from one its a wave...building before it breaks"
has everything to do with this.
and i know this is a message board that 5 people read, fuck all that....if 1 person comes away saying, "you know that's kind of fucked up" it will have been worth it.
its how i am in the real world. and i know i've affect people around me.
its like the civil rights movement. if they would have said "ah fuck it, lets not be so negative," they would still be second class citizens. it took people railing against the system to eachother, for over a century, 100 years of it, before martin luther king was even able to rise up and lead everyone to equality. through dogs and firehoses and bullets and batons- but they won.
and we will too. this movement is worldwide. people are tired of this , this is not the way we're wired....to kill and take and conquer and control.. its not the way its gonna be for long.
but it takes people understanding what's wrong before it can be changed.
education leads to action which leads to change. and it will change.
You know what commy ? I dont think you have ever had one positive thing to say about america. Sure past administrations have made hudge mistakes, but what good does it do when we dwell on the past and point fingers.We cant' change it. So why dont you try offering up some solutions for a change and stop bashig our country.
I mean no disrespect to you prfctlefts, but i honestly struggle with the mentality that when anyone speaks out about some injustice or wrong that we feel has been committed by the government, we are accused of hating America. I don't hate America. Far from it. Patriotism has never have been blind allegiance to people or policy. Patriotism is loyalty to an ideal - to principle. When i feel that our ideals or principles have been betrayed, i can't help but to speak out in defense of them. I speak out to preserve what I feel is great. I speak out because of what I love about my country, not out of hate. Don't you see this?
How can anyone condone authorizing and promoting the illegal use of torture on captives of America's wars on Iraq, Afghanistan, and "terror?" Speaking out against it is not hating America. When I see the fundamental values of this nation being assaulted, when I see our moral authority slipping away, i see hating America as not speaking out. Hating America is remaining silent. Hating America is defending and excusing such actions.
Cheney is guilty of war crimes. What kind of message is this sending to the world, and to our other citizens in the States? If you commit a crime and you are important enough, it's not prosecutable in America?
I just can't swallow it and say nothing, but i'm far from a hater.
You know what commy ? I dont think you have ever had one positive thing to say about america. Sure past administrations have made hudge mistakes, but what good does it do when we dwell on the past and point fingers.We cant' change it. So why dont you try offering up some solutions for a change and stop bashig our country.
I mean no disrespect to you prfctlefts, but i honestly struggle with the mentality that when anyone speaks out about some injustice or wrong that we feel has been committed by the government, we are accused of hating America. I don't hate America. Far from it. Patriotism has never have been blind allegiance to people or policy. Patriotism is loyalty to an ideal - to principle. When i feel that our ideals or principles have been betrayed, i can't help but to speak out in defense of them. I speak out to preserve what I feel is great. I speak out because of what I love about my country, not out of hate. Don't you see this?
How can anyone condone authorizing and promoting the illegal use of torture on captives of America's wars on Iraq, Afghanistan, and "terror?" Speaking out against it is not hating America. When I see the fundamental values of this nation being assaulted, when I see our moral authority slipping away, i see hating America as not speaking out. Hating America is remaining silent. Hating America is defending and excusing such actions.
Cheney is guilty of war crimes. What kind of message is this sending to the world, and to our other citizens in the States? If you commit a crime and you are important enough, it's not prosecutable in America?
I just can't swallow it and say nothing, but i'm far from a hater.
This is a great post, I hope you don't mind if I save it to show my parents sometime.
You know what commy ? I dont think you have ever had one positive thing to say about america. Sure past administrations have made hudge mistakes, but what good does it do when we dwell on the past and point fingers.We cant' change it. So why dont you try offering up some solutions for a change and stop bashig our country.
I mean no disrespect to you prfctlefts, but i honestly struggle with the mentality that when anyone speaks out about some injustice or wrong that we feel has been committed by the government, we are accused of hating America. I don't hate America. Far from it. Patriotism has never have been blind allegiance to people or policy. Patriotism is loyalty to an ideal - to principle. When i feel that our ideals or principles have been betrayed, i can't help but to speak out in defense of them. I speak out to preserve what I feel is great. I speak out because of what I love about my country, not out of hate. Don't you see this?
How can anyone condone authorizing and promoting the illegal use of torture on captives of America's wars on Iraq, Afghanistan, and "terror?" Speaking out against it is not hating America. When I see the fundamental values of this nation being assaulted, when I see our moral authority slipping away, i see hating America as not speaking out. Hating America is remaining silent. Hating America is defending and excusing such actions.
Cheney is guilty of war crimes. What kind of message is this sending to the world, and to our other citizens in the States? If you commit a crime and you are important enough, it's not prosecutable in America?
I just can't swallow it and say nothing, but i'm far from a hater.
Jesus man I never said a damn thing about anyone hating America or did I even use the word hate. :roll: But when you say things like America is the biggest killer of all I have a problem with that. B/C it's a goddamn lie and anyone with half a freakin brain knows it. But just like I said you guys say all kinds of things like that but offer no solution's. It's always the same rhetoric out of the same people., and half the shit that's regurgitated isn't even true or it's taken out of context. Also I never acused anyone of being a hater so please don't put words in my mouth.
Obama is currently bombing villages where innocent women and children are being killed. Apparently that's ok but 2 people get water borted and it's been proven that it prevented further attacks and terrorist cells were broken up. So it's ok for Obama but we should indite the Bush administration for war crimes? :? :roll:
Jesus man I never said a damn thing about anyone hating America or did I even use the word hate. :roll: But when you say things like America is the biggest killer of all I have a problem with that. B/C it's a goddamn lie and anyone with half a freakin brain knows it.
its not a lie just because you say it is.
According to the UN (don't believe me, i don't care-this is from the UN) 11-13 million people die every year from easily curable diseases or starvation. in countries directly affected by US policy, things like the WTO and WB. that's an american holocaust, and its annual.
add 30,000 dead in nicaragua and thousands from panama and thousands from afghanistan nad the philipines and millions from iraq and on and on-the direct confrontations.
add support for mass murderers like saddam hussein and people like him, still standard US policy today, and the number is even higher.
name 1 country that even comes close-in the last 50 years.
But just like I said you guys say all kinds of things like that but offer no solution's. It's always the same rhetoric out of the same people., and half the shit that's regurgitated isn't even true or it's taken out of context. Also I never acused anyone of being a hater so please don't put words in my mouth.
find 2 things i've posted ever that are untrue.
i cite my posts more than most, more than anyone apoligizing for war or torture, to be sure.
the solution is this.
non-violent mas popular protests and strikes. if no one shows up to work tomorrow, instead hit the streets with signs, they don't have a country to run. they HAVE to listen to that type of action, martin luthar king showed us that. and the labor movement in the 1900's, and the women's right movement and the workers rights movement, and the anti-war movement that ended vietnam. all examples of how to affect change in the government..
Obama is currently bombing villages where innocent women and children are being killed. Apparently that's ok but 2 people get water borted and it's been proven that it prevented further attacks and terrorist cells were broken up. So it's ok for Obama but we should indite the Bush administration for war crimes? :? :roll:
i think that position is in the minority these days. you're either anti-war all the time, even if obama does it, or your a hypocrite.
and that proves one of my points.
US foreign policy is violent, and it changes little with the parties at home.
Bush1 invaded Iraq
Clinton upheld the sanctions, bombed a Sudanese pharmeceutical plant for some reason, killing 30,000 it been estimated. and bombed Iraq repeatedly.
Bush2 invaded and destroyed 2 countries, killing hundreds of thousands.
Obama upped the war in afghanistan and will probably continue support for torturous regimes like Turkey and colombia.
not much changes on election day, in terms of foreign policy.
its not bitterness that motivates me, its education. people need to know what's wrong before it can be fixed. i pissed, don't get me wrong, but the only way to change anything is with mass popular protests and strikes. if we don't change it from within, the rest of the world might decide one day they've had enough of being pushed around. lets hope we change it from within before that day comes.
You know what commy ? I dont think you have ever had one positive thing to say about america. Sure past administrations have made hudge mistakes, but what good does it do when we dwell on the past and point fingers.We cant' change it. So why dont you try offering up some solutions for a change and stop bashig our country.
I mean no disrespect to you prfctlefts, but i honestly struggle with the mentality that when anyone speaks out about some injustice or wrong that we feel has been committed by the government, we are accused of hating America. I don't hate America. Far from it. Patriotism has never have been blind allegiance to people or policy. Patriotism is loyalty to an ideal - to principle. When i feel that our ideals or principles have been betrayed, i can't help but to speak out in defense of them. I speak out to preserve what I feel is great. I speak out because of what I love about my country, not out of hate. Don't you see this?
How can anyone condone authorizing and promoting the illegal use of torture on captives of America's wars on Iraq, Afghanistan, and "terror?" Speaking out against it is not hating America. When I see the fundamental values of this nation being assaulted, when I see our moral authority slipping away, i see hating America as not speaking out. Hating America is remaining silent. Hating America is defending and excusing such actions.
Cheney is guilty of war crimes. What kind of message is this sending to the world, and to our other citizens in the States? If you commit a crime and you are important enough, it's not prosecutable in America?
I just can't swallow it and say nothing, but i'm far from a hater.
Jesus man I never said a damn thing about anyone hating America or did I even use the word hate. :roll: But when you say things like America is the biggest killer of all I have a problem with that. B/C it's a goddamn lie and anyone with half a freakin brain knows it. But just like I said you guys say all kinds of things like that but offer no solution's. It's always the same rhetoric out of the same people., and half the shit that's regurgitated isn't even true or it's taken out of context. Also I never acused anyone of being a hater so please don't put words in my mouth.
Obama is currently bombing villages where innocent women and children are being killed. Apparently that's ok but 2 people get water borted and it's been proven that it prevented further attacks and terrorist cells were broken up. So it's ok for Obama but we should indite the Bush administration for war crimes? :? :roll:
I apologize if it seemed i was putting words in your mouth regarding the hating. Your posts seemed very angry towards the people you disagreed with and you were big on the name calling.
Thanks for understanding.
As to the rest of your post, i agree with Commy's reply. What he said was right on.
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Surfing The far side of THE Sombrero Galaxy Posts: 18,209
I hope he gets on the stand to so all you far left kooks will see that we did get valuable Intel that saved american lives. But it's obvious that most of you could care less cos it's all about ideology and politics
you think the guys fighting US troops think about what it means to surrender?
Like say a guy had a choice to surrender or die fighting...
But he knows if he surrenders he'll probably be tortured , so chooses to keep fighting to the death.
how many Americans would have been saved if that guy just surrendered? 1? 5? 10?
who knows.
Saving lives? maybe not.
this is insane. The US has invaded IRAQ. WE invaded IRAQ
OF course they are trying to kill our troops. its called defending your country you dumb mother fuckers.
What if Iraqi troops were now occupying the US and were running around torturing all the patriots trying to find the militia hideouts?
would you defend the torture then? They are trying to save lives. right?
right?
you are all insane.
What in the fuck.
Cheney should spend the rest of his life in prison. along with every other scumbag from that administration.
the only dumb mother fucker around here is you. You fckin pinko. You don't have a clue. The people you want to put in prison kept your stupid ass safe for the past 8 years. But guess what? since your boy Obama declassified all the memos now we will get hit again and then maybe you will get your head out of your ass and you'll see things for what they really are
For the life of me why do people keep saying this. The Bush Administration DID NO such thing! If my memory serves me right Bush was well into his administration by at least 6 months, 9/11 happen ON HIS watch and ONLY his. Maybe if Bush had gotten off his month long vacation and paid attention to this country's national security, maybe he could have been the hero and prevented this tragedy. However, he had his head too far up his ass to figure that out and left this country vulnerable to those attacks.
If between now and 9/11 2009 there's some attack does Obama get a pass I don't think that will ever happen so why do you prfctslefts/Cheney and others can now say they've kept this country safe for 8 years and they clearly did no such thing.
Peace
*We CAN bomb the World to pieces, but we CAN'T bomb it into PEACE*...Michael Franti
*MUSIC IS the expression of EMOTION.....and that POLITICS IS merely the DECOY of PERCEPTION*
.....song_Music & Politics....Michael Franti
*The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite INSANE*....Nikola Tesla(a man who shaped our world of electricity with his futuristic inventions)
Comments
Yet you'll stick up for killers and torturers if they happen to be wearing U.S army uniforms?
" No anger just common sense, which obviously isn't that common anymore
My principles have to with saving lives not sticking up for killers. what are yours?"
My principles dont include cheering for torture because it might make me feel safe from the boogeyman (which it doesnt).
Beautiful. Just beautiful.
Also I jsut have to say prfctlfts, isn't it possible to have a debate without being condescending and calling people names? This isn't grade school man, debate respectfully. If you can't adhere by the rules on this board, then you shouldn't post.
Sorry everybody, not trying to stick up for you, but I just can't ignore the juvenile tactics of discussion.
6/12/08 - Tampa, FL
8/23/09 - Chicago, IL
9/28/09 - Salt Lake City, UT (11 years too long!!!)
9/03/11 - East Troy, WI - PJ20 - Night 1
9/04/11 - East Troy, WI - PJ20 - Night 2
if your goal involves "saving lives" maybe apologizing for the biggest killer of them all isn't the best way to go about it.
good ole USA.
from supporting dictators in the middle east and south america (the US bears a lot of responsibility to their victims) to implementing international trade policy that is leaving 11-13 million people starving or dying from easily curable diseases (according to the UN). to outright invasions, another category the US leads in, since WWII.
No country on earth compares, nobody affects as much of the world as out policies do.
not an opinion.
were the biggest killer
sure commy whatever you say. :roll:
look at the facts. this one isn't too complicated.
The US spends about as much on its military as the rest of the world combined. They label it "defense:"which lets them kick it back to any number of repressive regimes around the world.
but just think about that for a second. The US spends more on weapons and planes and tanks than ALL of Europe, Russia and China combined.
notice we aren't arming countries that want peace. the countries we support inevitably have high resources, low minimum wages, and a horrible human rights record. In fact there is a direct ratio between US aid and human rights abuses. And probably a ratio linking resources and US interest, though I doubt anyone has bothered to figure it out.
Pinochet, Papa Doc Duvalier and Saddam Hussein were all US clients at one time. google them, its important. no country on earth compares to the US when it comes to human rights abuses...and like i mentioned, i can prove it.
the line "change don't come from one its a wave...building before it breaks"
has everything to do with this.
and i know this is a message board that 5 people read, fuck all that....if 1 person comes away saying, "you know that's kind of fucked up" it will have been worth it.
its how i am in the real world. and i know i've affect people around me.
its like the civil rights movement. if they would have said "ah fuck it, lets not be so negative," they would still be second class citizens. it took people railing against the system to eachother, for over a century, 100 years of it, before martin luther king was even able to rise up and lead everyone to equality. through dogs and firehoses and bullets and batons- but they won.
and we will too. this movement is worldwide. people are tired of this , this is not the way we're wired....to kill and take and conquer and control.. its not the way its gonna be for long.
but it takes people understanding what's wrong before it can be changed.
education leads to action which leads to change. and it will change.
Spot on dude.
I mean no disrespect to you prfctlefts, but i honestly struggle with the mentality that when anyone speaks out about some injustice or wrong that we feel has been committed by the government, we are accused of hating America. I don't hate America. Far from it. Patriotism has never have been blind allegiance to people or policy. Patriotism is loyalty to an ideal - to principle. When i feel that our ideals or principles have been betrayed, i can't help but to speak out in defense of them. I speak out to preserve what I feel is great. I speak out because of what I love about my country, not out of hate. Don't you see this?
How can anyone condone authorizing and promoting the illegal use of torture on captives of America's wars on Iraq, Afghanistan, and "terror?" Speaking out against it is not hating America. When I see the fundamental values of this nation being assaulted, when I see our moral authority slipping away, i see hating America as not speaking out. Hating America is remaining silent. Hating America is defending and excusing such actions.
Cheney is guilty of war crimes. What kind of message is this sending to the world, and to our other citizens in the States? If you commit a crime and you are important enough, it's not prosecutable in America?
I just can't swallow it and say nothing, but i'm far from a hater.
This is a great post, I hope you don't mind if I save it to show my parents sometime.
Jesus man I never said a damn thing about anyone hating America or did I even use the word hate. :roll: But when you say things like America is the biggest killer of all I have a problem with that. B/C it's a goddamn lie and anyone with half a freakin brain knows it. But just like I said you guys say all kinds of things like that but offer no solution's. It's always the same rhetoric out of the same people., and half the shit that's regurgitated isn't even true or it's taken out of context. Also I never acused anyone of being a hater so please don't put words in my mouth.
Obama is currently bombing villages where innocent women and children are being killed. Apparently that's ok but 2 people get water borted and it's been proven that it prevented further attacks and terrorist cells were broken up. So it's ok for Obama but we should indite the Bush administration for war crimes? :? :roll:
According to the UN (don't believe me, i don't care-this is from the UN) 11-13 million people die every year from easily curable diseases or starvation. in countries directly affected by US policy, things like the WTO and WB. that's an american holocaust, and its annual.
add 30,000 dead in nicaragua and thousands from panama and thousands from afghanistan nad the philipines and millions from iraq and on and on-the direct confrontations.
add support for mass murderers like saddam hussein and people like him, still standard US policy today, and the number is even higher.
name 1 country that even comes close-in the last 50 years.
find 2 things i've posted ever that are untrue.
i cite my posts more than most, more than anyone apoligizing for war or torture, to be sure.
the solution is this.
non-violent mas popular protests and strikes. if no one shows up to work tomorrow, instead hit the streets with signs, they don't have a country to run. they HAVE to listen to that type of action, martin luthar king showed us that. and the labor movement in the 1900's, and the women's right movement and the workers rights movement, and the anti-war movement that ended vietnam. all examples of how to affect change in the government.. i think that position is in the minority these days. you're either anti-war all the time, even if obama does it, or your a hypocrite.
and that proves one of my points.
US foreign policy is violent, and it changes little with the parties at home.
Bush1 invaded Iraq
Clinton upheld the sanctions, bombed a Sudanese pharmeceutical plant for some reason, killing 30,000 it been estimated. and bombed Iraq repeatedly.
Bush2 invaded and destroyed 2 countries, killing hundreds of thousands.
Obama upped the war in afghanistan and will probably continue support for torturous regimes like Turkey and colombia.
not much changes on election day, in terms of foreign policy.
its not bitterness that motivates me, its education. people need to know what's wrong before it can be fixed. i pissed, don't get me wrong, but the only way to change anything is with mass popular protests and strikes. if we don't change it from within, the rest of the world might decide one day they've had enough of being pushed around. lets hope we change it from within before that day comes.
Thanks for understanding.
As to the rest of your post, i agree with Commy's reply. What he said was right on.
For the life of me why do people keep saying this. The Bush Administration DID NO such thing! If my memory serves me right Bush was well into his administration by at least 6 months, 9/11 happen ON HIS watch and ONLY his. Maybe if Bush had gotten off his month long vacation and paid attention to this country's national security, maybe he could have been the hero and prevented this tragedy. However, he had his head too far up his ass to figure that out and left this country vulnerable to those attacks.
If between now and 9/11 2009 there's some attack does Obama get a pass I don't think that will ever happen so why do you prfctslefts/Cheney and others can now say they've kept this country safe for 8 years and they clearly did no such thing.
Peace
*MUSIC IS the expression of EMOTION.....and that POLITICS IS merely the DECOY of PERCEPTION*
.....song_Music & Politics....Michael Franti
*The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite INSANE*....Nikola Tesla(a man who shaped our world of electricity with his futuristic inventions)