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dimitrispearljam

I equate this to a good number of companies who will not ship goods outside the US/Europe/etc.[/quote]
A little birdy few by our window tweeting very timely news. You might want to be hanging around tomorrow because birds like to fly into the wild in single pairs and single pairs only... you know? Be sure your Ten Club memberships are up-to-date as of today or come tomorrow you'll be one blue bird singing a sad song. You can log into your accounts from the main page on http://www.pearljam.com to make sure your ducks are in a basket and eggs in a row.... errr, meaning your membership is current, address correct, and such.

Love,
Sea and Kat

ITS MISSING OFCOURSE THE POINT THAT WILL BE TOMORROW SOMETHING NOT FOR ALL OF YOU,,ONLY IN USA MEMBERS ,NOT U EUROPEANS ..WHO PAY MORE EXPENSIVE MEMBERSHIP..THE ONE THAT UPS STOLE YOUR MONEY WITH THE DELUXE BOX
IF YOU DONT LIKE OUR COMPLAINS DONT READ THEM AND DONT ANSWER TO THEM,,ITS NOT YOU THAT ARE WRITTEN TOO,,ITS THE 10C,THE BAND,,IF YOU ARE NOT IN 10C PEOPLE DONT HAVE TO ANSWER AND TRY TO GIVE EXPLENATION TO EVERYTHING HAPPEN AROUND HERE,,
AND LAST TIME I CHECK USA HAD DEMOCRACY?PEOPLE CAN TELL THEIR OPINION OR WHAT?AND YOU DO THE SAME IN THE DELUXE BOX IN THE EUROPEANS FANS PROBLEM,AND ITS GETTING TIRED YOU DONT HAVE TO ANSWER FOR THEM,,,WHEN YOU ARE OUT OF THE DANCEFLOOR YOU CAN TELL AS MUCH SONGS YOU LIKE...
SO IF YOU DONT HAVE PROBLEMS WITH BUYING TICKETS LET US TO MAKE COMPLAINS COUSE WE CANT BUY,,..WE ARE MEMBERS TOO,WE PAY TOO,WE LOVE THE BAND TOO AND WE WANT THE SAME RIGHTS TOO,
PEACE LOVE AND DEMOCRACY,

Yellow Ledbelly

I've been a member for quite some time now, but I have never applied for fan club tickets.
Based on last year's Ed tour, how many pairs should we expect to be sold for the shows?
I look at it as a shot in the dark at best, but I am hopeful.
And, were all the 10C tickets for last year's run primo seats for members? Front row? First couple of rows?

Heineken Helen

redrock wrote:

dimitrispearljam wrote:

HA HA HA,,,EV TOUR SOLO? ? AND YOU WANNA GO????AND YOU ARE FROM EUROPE???????????????????????????????? SORRY YOU CANT GO!!!!CHANGE YOUR COUNTRY TO USA AND WE WILL SEE YOUR MATTER WITH
LOVE AND...UNDERSTANDING...

You know what guys.... just revoke your membership and find yourself another band. Constructive criticism is good and needed, but this, once again, is just being flippant. Once or twice.. fine but constantly?

We don't know what is in store for future dates (EV or PJ) so putting stupid words in his/10C's mouth is just plain silly.

I equate this to a good number of companies who will not ship goods outside the US/Europe/etc.

To be honest, I AM considering revoking my membership and not going to see them again. If they play London I'd definitely go to the meetup but the more it seems about money to the band the more it's starting to feel like it's about money to ME. I've GIVEN constructive criticism to perhaps consider their fans who have loved and supported them thus far... but apparently those fans are only American and have survived the recession :shock: have I missed something? Also, I appreciate this is just the solo tour and the band tour may be completely different... we'll wait and see... I still have respect for PJ the band but I'm losing respect for Ed the singer. You may not agree with my opinion but my opinion is as valid as yours... and evidentally I'm not alone in this.

Those companies who don't ship outside the US don't allow you to become a paid member if you're outside the US... why would they? And why would you join if the benefits weren't applicable to you?

Heineken Helen

dimitrispearljam wrote:

ITS MISSING OFCOURSE THE POINT THAT WILL BE TOMORROW SOMETHING NOT FOR ALL OF YOU,,ONLY IN USA MEMBERS ,NOT U EUROPEANS ..WHO PAY MORE EXPENSIVE MEMBERSHIP..

Very good point... 10c could have a problem on their hands for misleading people into joining up and paying the membership fee... when there were no benefits to be had. I was already fully paid up anyway but, if I wasn't, and saw that reminder, I would have rushed out to pay money for the membership, it said NOTHING about North American fans only... it was misleading!

For the record, I wouldn't be going anyway... but I know plenty of European or Australian fans who WOULD have been there... and who have been HUGE supporters, both financially and in every other way, of Ed and the band... and this is a RIGHT 'fuck you' to them.

redrock

dimitrispearljam wrote:

IF YOU DONT LIKE OUR COMPLAINS DONT READ THEM AND DONT ANSWER TO THEM....
AND LAST TIME I CHECK USA HAD DEMOCRACY? PEOPLE CAN TELL THEIR OPINION OR WHAT?
SO IF YOU DONT HAVE PROBLEMS WITH BUYING TICKETS LET US TO MAKE COMPLAINS COUSE WE CANT BUY,,..WE ARE MEMBERS TOO,WE PAY TOO,WE LOVE THE BAND TOO AND WE WANT THE SAME RIGHTS TOO,
PEACE LOVE AND DEMOCRACY,

Ummm... why are you bringing up the USA and democracy? Anyway, I guess I can give my opinion too then? I don't live in the US and I can't buy tix for the EV shows if I wanted to. BUT... I read and understand the fine print (ie the 'legal info' bit) before I go into things and I read and understand what I am getting into when I give the 10C my membership fees (most people do). Maybe that is why I cannot get on my high horses for things like this. Have another look at my post where it is explained what your membership 'entitles' you to. Then you might think again about 'rights'

Anyway... I'm done with this... use your capital letters as much as you want to moan and whine before even trying to understand things. Again, if you are so unhappy with the service, don't use it. You can still be a PJ fan without being in the fan club. I guess all you will miss is a newsletter and a lil' vinyl. Tix and other merchandise (such as the box set) can be had elsewhere.

zootown

Heineken Helen wrote:

dimitrispearljam wrote:

ITS MISSING OFCOURSE THE POINT THAT WILL BE TOMORROW SOMETHING NOT FOR ALL OF YOU,,ONLY IN USA MEMBERS ,NOT U EUROPEANS ..WHO PAY MORE EXPENSIVE MEMBERSHIP..

Very good point... 10c could have a problem on their hands for misleading people into joining up and paying the membership fee... when there were no benefits to be had. I was already fully paid up anyway but, if I wasn't, and saw that reminder, I would have rushed out to pay money for the membership, it said NOTHING about North American fans only... it was misleading!

For the record, I wouldn't be going anyway... but I know plenty of European or Australian fans who WOULD have been there... and who have been HUGE supporters, both financially and in every other way, of Ed and the band... and this is a RIGHT 'fuck you' to them.

HH, Im surprised you are not seeing the logic here....."plenty" of fans from overseas? Really? It would be different if this was a 40,000 person PJ show, but it's not...These venues only hold a few thousand folks, and I for one ( though I am not going to any shows) think its actually cool that PJ is catering a bit to the fans who live close to those venues. I for one would not be uttering a single gripe if the situation was reversed, and Ed was playing small shows in Europe, and thus European fans get the first and best chances for a very limited # of tickets- it seems to make sense to me....

heather_honey

Yellow Ledbelly wrote:

I've been a member for quite some time now, but I have never applied for fan club tickets.
Based on last year's Ed tour, how many pairs should we expect to be sold for the shows?
I look at it as a shot in the dark at best, but I am hopeful.
And, were all the 10C tickets for last year's run primo seats for members? Front row? First couple of rows?

I was unable to get 10c tickets to EV shows last year but I did get a single from TM in the public sale. Some 10c members I met in my general seating area, which was the balcony, had 10c tickets. A few had been to more than 1 show and had better tickets than the ones they had the night they were in the balcony when I met them.

Based on my experience, I'd say the tickets can be anywhere, not just primo seats. Another thing to bear in mind with that is the fact that most of these places are really small and not like getting level 300 at MSG or something. I don't think I could have complained from any seat in the house in the NYC area shows last year.

dimitrispearljam

redrock wrote:

dimitrispearljam wrote:

IF YOU DONT LIKE OUR COMPLAINS DONT READ THEM AND DONT ANSWER TO THEM....
AND LAST TIME I CHECK USA HAD DEMOCRACY? PEOPLE CAN TELL THEIR OPINION OR WHAT?
SO IF YOU DONT HAVE PROBLEMS WITH BUYING TICKETS LET US TO MAKE COMPLAINS COUSE WE CANT BUY,,..WE ARE MEMBERS TOO,WE PAY TOO,WE LOVE THE BAND TOO AND WE WANT THE SAME RIGHTS TOO,
PEACE LOVE AND DEMOCRACY,

Ummm... why are you bringing up the USA and democracy? Anyway, I guess I can give my opinion too then? I don't live in the US and I can't buy tix for the EV shows if I wanted to. BUT... I read and understand the fine print (ie the 'legal info' bit) before I go into things and I read and understand that I am getting into when I give the 10C my membership fees. Maybe that is why I cannot get on my high horses for things like this. Have another look at my post where it is explained what your membership 'entitles' you to. Then you might think again about 'rights'

Anyway... I'm done with this... use your capital letters as much as you want to moan and whine before even trying to understand things. Again, if you are so unhappy with the service, don't use it. You can still be a PJ fan without being in the fan club. I guess all you will miss is a newsletter and a lil' vinyl. Tix and other merchandise (such as the box set) can be had elsewhere.

im a little sensitive with democracy and rights maybe couse i was born and live in the mother base of democracy..ill travel to see ev tour ,,ill find the way,,the same i did to new york after the solt out,,i dont care about money i have to overpay for that,,,
but this again is a fault,,,they 10c is make a post and say to ALL,and not only some of the fans to renewing the membership couse a pre-sale comes up,,,,but people renewing their membership,from south america ,europe,africa,asia,australia,for something that will not happen for them,,,
and people based on that,,one day before post,,
and when i have problem with a service,i dont tern my back and leave,,i put my words up to make the service better,,and exactly this a fan club,,for fans,not for customers only,,couse from customers they take the money,,,but for fans they take the FAME.....19 years now....

dimitrispearljam

zootown wrote:

Heineken Helen wrote:

dimitrispearljam wrote:

ITS MISSING OFCOURSE THE POINT THAT WILL BE TOMORROW SOMETHING NOT FOR ALL OF YOU,,ONLY IN USA MEMBERS ,NOT U EUROPEANS ..WHO PAY MORE EXPENSIVE MEMBERSHIP..

Very good point... 10c could have a problem on their hands for misleading people into joining up and paying the membership fee... when there were no benefits to be had. I was already fully paid up anyway but, if I wasn't, and saw that reminder, I would have rushed out to pay money for the membership, it said NOTHING about North American fans only... it was misleading!

For the record, I wouldn't be going anyway... but I know plenty of European or Australian fans who WOULD have been there... and who have been HUGE supporters, both financially and in every other way, of Ed and the band... and this is a RIGHT 'fuck you' to them.

HH, Im surprised you are not seeing the logic here....."plenty" of fans from overseas? Really? It would be different if this was a 40,000 person PJ show, but it's not...These venues only hold a few thousand folks, and I for one ( though I am not going to any shows) think its actually cool that PJ is catering a bit to the fans who live close to those venues. I for one would not be uttering a single gripe if the situation was reversed, and Ed was playing small shows in Europe, and thus European fans get the first and best chances for a very limited # of tickets- it seems to make sense to me....

u are correct to your thoughts,,its very logic what u say..the problem is that they generally put the post..for renewing membership..people did it for have the chance to buy tickets..but suddenly,,was only for us,,and is the whole history with the problems for european fans with deluxe box edition with the over pay to ups(we pay double the box couse ups charge more,)and a lot of europeans are with less trust ,angree,and for sure dont like more mistakes like those

vedderfan10

If I was Ed and catered only to the few overseas fans that populate this board, I'd cancel my possibly already planned european/austrailian/japan/china/russia/new zealand/india/africa/etc. tour.

You don't know what is planned for 2010...sounds like PJ isn't touring that year, leaving Ed to perhaps tour on his own...and yeah, if this tour was only open to European fans, I think a lot of us in North America might be able to accept it and move on with our lives. If we really wanted to go, we'd get tix from TM or whatever...

If you are so angry about this, write to the Ten Club or Kelly Curtis...none of us here can do anything for you.

Bide your time. Take deep breaths. Watch DVDs (btw Immagine did not include ANY north american footage, so I guess we should all be hostile about that, huh?), listen to music and wait for them to play at a town near you.

Heineken Helen

Vedderfan10 wrote:

If I was Ed and catered only to the few overseas fans that populate this board, I'd cancel my possibly already planned european/austrailian/japan/china/russia/new zealand/india/africa/etc. tour.

You don't know what is planned for 2010...sounds like PJ isn't touring that year, leaving Ed to perhaps tour on his own...and yeah, if this tour was only open to European fans, I think a lot of us in North America might be able to accept it and move on with our lives. If we really wanted to go, we'd get tix from TM or whatever...

If you are so angry about this, write to the Ten Club or Kelly Curtis...none of us here can do anything for you.

Bide your time. Take deep breaths. Watch DVDs (btw Immagine did not include ANY north american footage, so I guess we should all be hostile about that, huh?), listen to music and wait for them to play at a town near you.

NOT a good choice to compare us to the US fans and say how the US fans would be much more accepting of all this NOT true... they'd be just as pissed as we are.

evenkat

Heineken Helen wrote:

redrock wrote:

dimitrispearljam wrote:

HA HA HA,,,EV TOUR SOLO? ? AND YOU WANNA GO????AND YOU ARE FROM EUROPE???????????????????????????????? SORRY YOU CANT GO!!!!CHANGE YOUR COUNTRY TO USA AND WE WILL SEE YOUR MATTER WITH
LOVE AND...UNDERSTANDING...

You know what guys.... just revoke your membership and find yourself another band. Constructive criticism is good and needed, but this, once again, is just being flippant. Once or twice.. fine but constantly?

We don't know what is in store for future dates (EV or PJ) so putting stupid words in his/10C's mouth is just plain silly.

I equate this to a good number of companies who will not ship goods outside the US/Europe/etc.

To be honest, I AM considering revoking my membership and not going to see them again. If they play London I'd definitely go to the meetup but the more it seems about money to the band the more it's starting to feel like it's about money to ME. I've GIVEN constructive criticism to perhaps consider their fans who have loved and supported them thus far... but apparently those fans are only American and have survived the recession :shock: have I missed something? Also, I appreciate this is just the solo tour and the band tour may be completely different... we'll wait and see... I still have respect for PJ the band but I'm losing respect for Ed the singer. You may not agree with my opinion but my opinion is as valid as yours... and evidentally I'm not alone in this.

Those companies who don't ship outside the US don't allow you to become a paid member if you're outside the US... why would they? And why would you join if the benefits weren't applicable to you?

No you're not! Calm down!

EV and/or the band can't always play everywhere, all of the time. PJ didn't play Europe for years but then did back to back tours in Europe and the US was pretty much left out. I believe it has paid off in the past for the dedicated European 10C fans too. IMO the boots prove that the band loved playing over there. Nah, they don’t like American fans better than European fans. That’s just nonsense. And it's not about money either. It probably is just a little easier to tour in North America because they live here and their families are here. If they lived in Europe I'm sure it would be the opposite.

We get 2 tickets to 1 show, not all of them...and that's if we're lucky. Now I’ve no clue why the tix are just for US and Canadian fans only. There probably is a very good reason though. I would love to meet up with many of the European fans again at the show. I had a blast with them in NYC and Chicago, including with you chickie.

Yes, we ALL get upset when they don't play close by! Lets just hope there is more to come. I hope there is a London show for you and Babs in the near future

vedderfan10

Heineken Helen wrote:

To be honest, I AM considering revoking my membership and not going to see them again. but the more it seems about money to the band the more it's starting to feel like it's about money to ME. I still have respect for PJ the band but I'm losing respect for Ed the singer.

Can I buy all your Vedder things then? Cheap? I still respect him and appreciate most of what he does...

So, PJ hasn't played in Western Canada since 2005... should I be angry and say I don't like them anymore because Ed is touring in the US only...or that the band toured the eastern US last summer AND Ed toured there too? No...I'm going to wait until they come back here - or if I feel so inclined I will purchase a ticket or ten from TM for as many shows I want and travel travel travel. People outside North America are also free to do the same. There are also contests and other things through the Ten Club in which Canadians cannot participate, and while it might be annoying and we groan a bit, it's not the end of the world...

As for the ticket prices...this has been discussed in many other threads...

And I'm spent!

SOLAT319

zootown wrote:

I for one would not be uttering a single gripe if the situation was reversed, and Ed was playing small shows in Europe, and thus European fans get the first and best chances for a very limited # of tickets-.

Hah! If that ever happens, I am SO gonna make my sister a member. She lives in the Netherlands

evolution1_1973

I so wish I could go again and see and listen to Eddie once more. So many think I lust for him, and yes, even though I think he's the man, I honestly wish I could meet him at least once and tell him how much I admire him, how much his words and music mean to me. I am sure I speak for so many out there, but at the same time I speak for myself, how the music has been a companion to me in times where I've felt so lonely and his music has been the only comfort I've head at arms reach. If I were a guy I'd love to be him and even though I'm a female I still wish I'd be him. I've been a fan since my last year in high school, through my college years, and now in my professional life. I've been a fan through his long hair days, through his short hair days, through his beard days, and now again through his long hair-beard days, he get better and better. I've been a fan since I didn't have money to buy a concert ticket when I lived in Hayward, CA and Pearl Jam was in concert at the Warfield in San Francisco.... San Francisco was a distant city to me back then. Now I was able to afford a ticket to see Pearl Jam in Hawaii and as far as Mansfield, MA. Pearl Jam and Eddie mean the world to me. My beloved kitty's name is Pearl and she's now almost 15 years old and like their music she's still going strong. I just cannot say how much I love the music and what Eddie embodies. I truly wish to one day meet Eddie.

burtschips

why are there europeans getting stressed about this... i seem to remember PJ touring two years running and 10C making the entire floor (at wembley) available for fan club members.

Fuck, the show in Maui would be amazing. Springsteen in Hyde Park on the same day is pretty amazing too!

Heineken Helen

evenkat wrote:

No you're not! Calm down!

EV and/or the band can't always play everywhere, all of the time. PJ didn't play Europe for years but then did back to back tours in Europe and the US was pretty much left out. I believe it has paid off in the past for the dedicated European 10C fans too. IMO the boots prove that the band loved playing over there. Nah, they don’t like American fans better than European fans. That’s just nonsense. And it's not about money either. It probably is just a little easier to tour in North America because they live here and their families are here. If they lived in Europe I'm sure it would be the opposite.

We get 2 tickets to 1 show, not all of them...and that's if we're lucky. Now I’ve no clue why the tix are just for US and Canadian fans only. There probably is a very good reason though. I would love to meet up with many of the European fans again at the show. I had a blast with them in NYC and Chicago, including with you chickie.

Yes, we ALL get upset when they don't play close by! Lets just hope there is more to come. I hope there is a London show for you and Babs in the near future

Oh I'm sure there will be in the next year or two.

Heineken Helen

Vedderfan10 wrote:

Can I buy all your Vedder things then? Cheap? I still respect him and appreciate most of what he does...

So, PJ hasn't played in Western Canada since 2005... should I be angry and say I don't like them anymore because Ed is touring in the US only...or that the band toured the eastern US last summer AND Ed toured there too? No...I'm going to wait until they come back here - or if I feel so inclined I will purchase a ticket or ten from TM for as many shows I want and travel travel travel. People outside North America are also free to do the same. There are also contests and other things through the Ten Club in which Canadians cannot participate, and while it might be annoying and we groan a bit, it's not the end of the world...

As for the ticket prices...this has been discussed in many other threads...

And I'm spent!

I'll send ya the link to my ebay account when I put them up well they've made enough money out of me over the years

Heineken Helen

burtschips wrote:

why are there europeans getting stressed about this... i seem to remember PJ touring two years running and 10C making the entire floor (at wembley) available for fan club members.

Fuck, the show in Maui would be amazing. Springsteen in Hyde Park on the same day is pretty amazing too!

but that was open to ALL 10c members... not just English ones!

Looking forward to springsteen though what was that? £45 for an entire days worth of music?

Irish Al

Heineken Helen wrote:

burtschips wrote:

why are there europeans getting stressed about this... i seem to remember PJ touring two years running and 10C making the entire floor (at wembley) available for fan club members.

Fuck, the show in Maui would be amazing. Springsteen in Hyde Park on the same day is pretty amazing too!

but that was open to ALL 10c members... not just English ones!

Looking forward to springsteen though what was that? £45 for an entire days worth of music?

Hey hells, havent read all the post so dont know the context but wasnt the Astoria for UK jammers only?? and didnt you get there, there are ways and means m'dear

evenkat

Heineken Helen wrote:

evenkat wrote:

No you're not! Calm down!

EV and/or the band can't always play everywhere, all of the time. PJ didn't play Europe for years but then did back to back tours in Europe and the US was pretty much left out. I believe it has paid off in the past for the dedicated European 10C fans too. IMO the boots prove that the band loved playing over there. Nah, they don’t like American fans better than European fans. That’s just nonsense. And it's not about money either. It probably is just a little easier to tour in North America because they live here and their families are here. If they lived in Europe I'm sure it would be the opposite.

We get 2 tickets to 1 show, not all of them...and that's if we're lucky. Now I’ve no clue why the tix are just for US and Canadian fans only. There probably is a very good reason though. I would love to meet up with many of the European fans again at the show. I had a blast with them in NYC and Chicago, including with you chickie.

Yes, we ALL get upset when they don't play close by! Lets just hope there is more to come. I hope there is a London show for you and Babs in the near future

Oh I'm sure there will be in the next year or two.

I don't know, what's worse not being able to get tickets through 10C for a show in another country or not being able to get tickets for a show that is right in the city you live because members from across the country or from another country got the 10C tickets instead?

Ed's coming to my city but it's not a guarantee that I'll get 10C tickets. And yes I will cry lol.

Heineken Helen

Irish Al wrote:

Heineken Helen wrote:

burtschips wrote:

why are there europeans getting stressed about this... i seem to remember PJ touring two years running and 10C making the entire floor (at wembley) available for fan club members.

Fuck, the show in Maui would be amazing. Springsteen in Hyde Park on the same day is pretty amazing too!

but that was open to ALL 10c members... not just English ones!

Looking forward to springsteen though what was that? £45 for an entire days worth of music?

Hey hells, havent read all the post so dont know the context but wasnt the Astoria for UK jammers only?? and didnt you get there, there are ways and means m'dear

I don't think it was... cos I bought my ticket from an American but, of course there are always ways and means and there are brilliant people here who WILL give their spare to a European desperate to travel... but shouldn't that European be able to buy their own?

idratherbe

WildChildRose wrote:

Mjswan76 wrote:

No Seattle again... that's what 3 solo ed tours without a legit seattle show. weak. :(

Agreed.... :(

AGREED AGREED. WTF? Throw us a bone for Chrissakes.

Oh well, at least I'm going to the FTM show.

~peace~

IamMine

idratherbe wrote:

WildChildRose wrote:

Mjswan76 wrote:

No Seattle again... that's what 3 solo ed tours without a legit seattle show. weak. :(

Agreed.... :(

AGREED AGREED. WTF? Throw us a bone for Chrissakes.

Oh well, at least I'm going to the FTM show.

~peace~

LIZ!!!! Good to :geek: you! ((((hugs))) We miss you so much, me and bobby.

Sorry Seattle didn't work out...but hopefully later on this year, something will happen in your hometown. It's just starting.


I'll PM you next week after the Easter weekend - we have so much to catch up!

Good to see ya back and have fun at FTM show!

Happy Easter, liz and to everyone else here...

xoxo

BEnglish017

sucks i have to pass on this. can't spend the money, i would rather see pj

Heatherj43

Does that mean we get them free? Oh, like is this that big, bold free thing we were told about a few years back? LOL! So, its the EV solo tour, eh?

SOLAT319

Yeah, I got one of those "Eddie doesn't love you anymore" messages for Philly night 1. Oh well, more money for the full tour Seriously though, I think if there was gonna be yet another solo tour, it should have been to Europe. (You see I can say that now since I got the shaft from pre-sale :twisted: )

CJMST3K

Where do you hope the next tweet is for? I'm hoping for more PJ dates on the East Coast, but wouldn't mind additional EV dates too... Seeing as how East Coast got so much love last year, I wonder if they'd play it again so quickly.

josevolution

I'm hoping for west coast dates .

BeerBaron

josevolution wrote:

I'm hoping for west coast dates .

Me too