Finally proof that Pearl Jam is not ripping off their fans!

pj23yankspj23yanks Posts: 262
edited April 2009 in The Porch
Anyone who still thinks ticket prices for a Pearl Jam show are out of control don't need to look any further than the upcoming U2 tour. I just tried buying tickets to their upcoming show in Giants Stadium. The top price ticket is a whopping $250 unlike Pearl Jam which is still below $100. Even mezzanine tickets which are half decent tickets at best are $250 plus fees! If you want nose bleeds upstairs they are $95 plus fees which is more expensive than the best Pearl Jam seat. Yes they do have $30 & $55 seats but all of those are obstructive view seats.
98: East Rutherford
00: Saratoga Springs
03: Albany, Uniondale, DC, MSG I & II, Holmdel
04: Boston I
05: Montreal, Ottawa, Toronto, Pittsburgh
06: Toronto I & II, Hartford, Chicago I, Cleveland, Boston I & II, Philly I & II, DC, Milwaukee I, Vegas
07: Lollapalooza
08: Philly I, DC, MSG I & II
09: Chicago I & II, LA III & IV, Philly I, II & IV
10: St. Louis, Columbus, Buffalo, DC, Hartford, Boston
11: PJ20 I & II, Montreal, Toronto I & II, Ottawa, Hamilton, Winnipeg, Calgary, Edmonton, Vancouver, Sao Paulo I & II, Rio, Costa Rica, Mexico City
12: Berlin I & II, Stockholm, Oslo, Copenhagen, Philly, Pensacola
13: Chicago, Worcester I & II, Brooklyn II, Philly I & II, Hartford, Baltimore, Charlotte, Phoenix, San Diego, LA II, Oakland, Vancouver
14: Milan, Trieste, Cincinnati, Austin I, Memphis, St Paul, Denver, Bridge School II
15: NYC, Bogota, Mexico City
16: Miami, Tampa, Hampton, NYC I & II, Quebec, Toronto I, Fenway II, Wrigley II
18: Barcelona, Madrid, Seattle I, Boston I & II
22: Glendale, Oakland I, Sacramento, Toronto, Quebec, Hamilton, MSG, Camden, Nashville, Denver, Amsterdam I, Zurich, Vienna, Prague
Post edited by Unknown User on
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Comments

  • CJMST3KCJMST3K Posts: 9,722
    pj23yanks wrote:
    Anyone who still thinks ticket prices for a Pearl Jam show are out of control don't need to look any further than the upcoming U2 tour. I just tried buying tickets to their upcoming show in Giants Stadium. The top price ticket is a whopping $250 unlike Pearl Jam which is still below $100. Even mezzanine tickets which are half decent tickets at best are $250 plus fees! If you want nose bleeds upstairs they are $95 plus fees which is more expensive than the best Pearl Jam seat. Yes they do have $30 & $55 seats but all of those are obstructive view seats.


    I believe PJ does not discount for obstructed view, so to some degree you can say that PJ obstructed view tickets cost double what a U2 ticket do. :D
    ADD 5,200 to the post count you see, thank you. :)
    *NYC 9/28/96 *NYC 9/29/96 *NJ 9/8/98 (front row "may i play drums with you")
    *MSG 9/10/98 (backstage) *MSG 9/11/98 (backstage)
    *Jones Beach 8/23/00 *Jones Beach 8/24/00 *Jones Beach 8/25/00
    *Mansfield 8/29/00 *Mansfield 8/30/00 *Nassau 4/30/03 *Nissan VA 7/1/03
    *Borgata 10/1/05 *Camden 5/27/06 *Camden 5/28/06 *DC 5/30/06
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    *EV DC 8/17/08 *EV Baltimore 6/15/09 *Philly 10/31/09
    *Bristow VA 5/13/10 *MSG 5/20/10 *MSG 5/21/10
  • AllEncompassingTripAllEncompassingTrip IL Posts: 647
    edited March 2009
    pj23yanks wrote:
    Anyone who still thinks ticket prices for a Pearl Jam show are out of control don't need to look any further than the upcoming U2 tour. I just tried buying tickets to their upcoming show in Giants Stadium. The top price ticket is a whopping $250 unlike Pearl Jam which is still below $100. Even mezzanine tickets which are half decent tickets at best are $250 plus fees! If you want nose bleeds upstairs they are $95 plus fees which is more expensive than the best Pearl Jam seat. Yes they do have $30 & $55 seats but all of those are obstructive view seats.

    Those are not obstructed view seats, you yahoo! The $55 are general admission and the $30 are nose bleeds.. I should know.. I am going to in the nose bleeds at the Soldier Field show ;)
    Post edited by AllEncompassingTrip on
  • uglybabouglybabo Posts: 527
    I think the idea behind the U2360 tour is no obstructed seats.

    Granted, nosebleed seats at a stadium aren't that great for a concert.
  • uglybabo wrote:
    I think the idea behind the U2360 tour is no obstructed seats.

    Granted, nosebleed seats at a stadium aren't that great for a concert.

    I have a feeling that this one is going to be different, and that you'll want to be sitting further away that usual... To take it all in, so to speak
  • hopethatuchokehopethatuchoke Posts: 2,927
    No comparison. Have you seen the stage U2 is bringing with them? It's a show....a very expensive show that will probably blow your mind. It's also awesome the best tickets are the cheapest for U2.

    http://360.u2.com/

    Pearl Jam shows up with a few rows of lights and a carpet on stage for $75+. Great concert musically but as far as a "show" and value for your dollar they suck. Metallica shows are awesome, in the round and full of pyro and are cheaper.
  • PJammer4lifePJammer4life Los Angeles Posts: 2,656
    No comparison. Have you seen the stage U2 is bringing with them? It's a show....a very expensive show that will probably blow your mind. It's also awesome the best tickets are the cheapest for U2.

    http://360.u2.com/

    Pearl Jam shows up with a few rows of lights and a carpet on stage for $75+. Great concert musically but as far as a "show" and value for your dollar they suck. Metallica shows are awesome, in the round and full of pyro and are cheaper.


    You don't understand the aesthetics of a Pearl Jam show at all..they have long said its all about the music..go to a show and see for yourself..i have seen Popmart and Zooropa..and I have seen PJ in small venues..music rules over showmanship any day..and we also have the best fans for sing alongs...
    Bridge Benefit 1994, San Francisco 1995, San Diego 1995 1 & 2, Missoula 1998, Los Angeles 2000, San Diego 2000, Eddie Vedder/Beck 2/26/2002, Santa Barbara 2003, Irvine 2003, San Diego 2003, Vancouver 2005, Gorge 2005, San Diego 2006, Los Angeles 2006 1 & 2, Santa Barbara 2006, Eddie Vedder 4/10/08, Eddie Vedder 4/12/08, Eddie Vedder 4/15/08, 7/12/2008, SF 8/28/09, LA 9/30/09, LA 10/1/09, LA 10/06/09, LA 10/07/09, San Diego 10/09/09, Eddie Vedder 7/6/2011, Eddie Vedder 7/8/2011, PJ20 9/3/2011, PJ20 9/4/2011, Vancouver 9/25/2011, San Diego 11/21/13, LA 11/24/13, Ohana 9/25/21, Ohana 9/26/21, Ohana 10/1/21, EV 2/17/22, LA Forum 5/6/22, LA Forum 5/7/22, EV 10/1/22, EV 9/30/23
  • CJMST3KCJMST3K Posts: 9,722
    No comparison. Have you seen the stage U2 is bringing with them? It's a show....a very expensive show that will probably blow your mind. It's also awesome the best tickets are the cheapest for U2.

    http://360.u2.com/

    Pearl Jam shows up with a few rows of lights and a carpet on stage for $75+. Great concert musically but as far as a "show" and value for your dollar they suck. Metallica shows are awesome, in the round and full of pyro and are cheaper.


    You don't understand the aesthetics of a Pearl Jam show at all..they have long said its all about the music..go to a show and see for yourself..i have seen Popmart and Zooropa..and I have seen PJ in small venues..music rules over showmanship any day..and we also have the best fans for sing alongs...

    I don't think he's suggesting that PJ up their staging to match their ticket prices. I think he's suggesting that they lower their ticket prices to match their staging.
    ADD 5,200 to the post count you see, thank you. :)
    *NYC 9/28/96 *NYC 9/29/96 *NJ 9/8/98 (front row "may i play drums with you")
    *MSG 9/10/98 (backstage) *MSG 9/11/98 (backstage)
    *Jones Beach 8/23/00 *Jones Beach 8/24/00 *Jones Beach 8/25/00
    *Mansfield 8/29/00 *Mansfield 8/30/00 *Nassau 4/30/03 *Nissan VA 7/1/03
    *Borgata 10/1/05 *Camden 5/27/06 *Camden 5/28/06 *DC 5/30/06
    *VA Beach 6/17/08 *DC 6/22/08 *MSG 6/24/08 (backstage) *MSG 6/25/08
    *EV DC 8/17/08 *EV Baltimore 6/15/09 *Philly 10/31/09
    *Bristow VA 5/13/10 *MSG 5/20/10 *MSG 5/21/10
  • CROJAM95CROJAM95 Posts: 10,029
    No comparison. Have you seen the stage U2 is bringing with them? It's a show....a very expensive show that will probably blow your mind. It's also awesome the best tickets are the cheapest for U2.

    http://360.u2.com/

    Pearl Jam shows up with a few rows of lights and a carpet on stage for $75+. Great concert musically but as far as a "show" and value for your dollar they suck. Metallica shows are awesome, in the round and full of pyro and are cheaper.


    ever think that some bands use this as distractions to the fact that their lead singers and other band members are a bit crap....if u haven't then I have
  • DPrival78DPrival78 CT Posts: 2,263
    CJMST3K wrote:
    No comparison. Have you seen the stage U2 is bringing with them? It's a show....a very expensive show that will probably blow your mind. It's also awesome the best tickets are the cheapest for U2.

    http://360.u2.com/

    Pearl Jam shows up with a few rows of lights and a carpet on stage for $75+. Great concert musically but as far as a "show" and value for your dollar they suck. Metallica shows are awesome, in the round and full of pyro and are cheaper.


    You don't understand the aesthetics of a Pearl Jam show at all..they have long said its all about the music..go to a show and see for yourself..i have seen Popmart and Zooropa..and I have seen PJ in small venues..music rules over showmanship any day..and we also have the best fans for sing alongs...

    I don't think he's suggesting that PJ up their staging to match their ticket prices. I think he's suggesting that they lower their ticket prices to match their staging.

    pj should go back to their 98 tour set.. 5 candles, some basic lights, and a set of batwings. not that their recent stage setups are that elaborate, but they could certainly scale it back a bit without hurting the show. they don't need a light show to enhance the music, and it would lower costs for them (and in turn, i would hope, us too).
    i'm more a fan of popular bands.. like the bee-gees, pearl jam
  • pdalowskypdalowsky Doncaster,UK Posts: 15,092
    i'm gonna make a very sweeping statement that U2 are shit live.

    There i said it....$20 would be too much
  • walkunafraidwalkunafraid Posts: 2,613
    Regardless of whether the prices you quote are accurate are not, can you please explain how the prices that another band charges for tickets provides "proof that Pearl Jam is not ripping off their fans"?

    Hey, I just found out that I can go see Berlin for about $20 per ticket...this must be final proof that Pearl Jam IS ripping off their fans, right?

    (in other words, this is one of the stupidest threads i have ever seen on this board.)
    Everything has chains...Absolutely nothing's changed. - PJ

    “The only way to deal with an unfree world is to become so absolutely free that your very existence is an act of rebellion.” - Albert Camus
  • samnationsamnation Los Angeles, CA Posts: 277
    I believe PJ's ticket prices are going to help them survive this economic slump the country is in. U2's $250 is freakin' ridiculous for a rock concert these days. People are getting laid off, losing their houses, getting pay cuts, it's almost insulting to charge that much right now.
    Sam
  • evenflowmanevenflowman Posts: 1,347
    uglybabo wrote:
    I think the idea behind the U2360 tour is no obstructed seats.

    Granted, nosebleed seats at a stadium aren't that great for a concert.

    I have a feeling that this one is going to be different, and that you'll want to be sitting further away that usual... To take it all in, so to speak


    Sorta like a tool show I have sat really close but if u sit up above u get way more affect on all the lasers.
  • evenflowmanevenflowman Posts: 1,347
    samnation wrote:
    I believe PJ's ticket prices are going to help them survive this economic slump the country is in. U2's $250 is freakin' ridiculous for a rock concert these days. People are getting laid off, losing their houses, getting pay cuts, it's almost insulting to charge that much right now.

    When I bought my Elton John and billie joel tickets they kepty trying to sell me the 179.00 dollar seats I was like no way so i ended up with the 100 dollar ones still. I mean I am not even that old I say page and plant for under 35 and same with kiss.
  • hopethatuchokehopethatuchoke Posts: 2,927
    CJMST3K wrote:
    I don't think he's suggesting that PJ up their staging to match their ticket prices. I think he's suggesting that they lower their ticket prices to match their staging.


    Correct. I loved last year when the PJ summer ticket prices came out and people were defending them and saying it was due to gas prices :lol: Yup, $20 more a ticket per person compared to 06 was definitely due to gas and had nothing to do with the band wanting more money.

    And FWIW, I saw 2 shows on the Elevation tour with the heart shaped stage and they were both amazing. Right up there with pearl jam. Loud crowd really into it it too. I really loved the stage and the screens.
  • 12345AGNST112345AGNST1 Posts: 4,906
    Lets wait until their next tour. You never know if they are going to raise prices.
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  • brolocobroloco Posts: 1,237
    no this ain't a stupid thread. better than many around here. (how many more poster thread people gonna start?!) anyway I hear all sides of the argument, whether PJ's prices are too high or low (depending on your view). I really think PJ can get their prices lower though. Last year I spent $95 for average seats! what is all that money being spent on with the minimal set-up, etc. I think it all boils down to a supply and demand thing with most big bands. they charge what they do because they can. recession or not people will pay to go see their fav artist in concert. they'll find a way. I mean I won't. but people will. :lol:
  • walkunafraidwalkunafraid Posts: 2,613
    broloco wrote:
    no this ain't a stupid thread. better than many around here. (how many more poster thread people gonna start?!) anyway I hear all sides of the argument, whether PJ's prices are too high or low (depending on your view). I really think PJ can get their prices lower though. Last year I spent $95 for average seats! what is all that money being spent on with the minimal set-up, etc. I think it all boils down to a supply and demand thing with most big bands. they charge what they do because they can. recession or not people will pay to go see their fav artist in concert. they'll find a way. I mean I won't. but people will. :lol:

    it's a stupid thread because the op claims that the prices another band charges for tickets "proves" that pj doesn't rip off their fans. how the fuck does one prove the other? you will always be able to find at least one band who charges more or less for tickets than another band...does that "prove" that every band is simultaneously ripping off and not ripping off their fans?

    i think the question of ticket prices is certainly valid. i just don't think the title of this thread makes any sense whatsoever.
    Everything has chains...Absolutely nothing's changed. - PJ

    “The only way to deal with an unfree world is to become so absolutely free that your very existence is an act of rebellion.” - Albert Camus
  • SS28085SS28085 Posts: 46
    apple and oranges. u2 have 10 years on pearl jam, they were playing stadiums before pearl jam existed. you should compare pj ticket prices to their contemporaries. granted many of the bands from the early 90's no longer exist, but those that do are charging about the same if not a little less.
    Champagne breakfast for everyone!
  • pj23yankspj23yanks Posts: 262
    pj23yanks wrote:
    Anyone who still thinks ticket prices for a Pearl Jam show are out of control don't need to look any further than the upcoming U2 tour. I just tried buying tickets to their upcoming show in Giants Stadium. The top price ticket is a whopping $250 unlike Pearl Jam which is still below $100. Even mezzanine tickets which are half decent tickets at best are $250 plus fees! If you want nose bleeds upstairs they are $95 plus fees which is more expensive than the best Pearl Jam seat. Yes they do have $30 & $55 seats but all of those are obstructive view seats.

    Those are not obstructed view seats, you yahoo! The $55 are general admission and the $30 are nose bleeds.. I should know.. I am going to in the nose bleeds at the Soldier Field show ;)

    At Giants Stadium the $95 seats are nosebleeds!
    98: East Rutherford
    00: Saratoga Springs
    03: Albany, Uniondale, DC, MSG I & II, Holmdel
    04: Boston I
    05: Montreal, Ottawa, Toronto, Pittsburgh
    06: Toronto I & II, Hartford, Chicago I, Cleveland, Boston I & II, Philly I & II, DC, Milwaukee I, Vegas
    07: Lollapalooza
    08: Philly I, DC, MSG I & II
    09: Chicago I & II, LA III & IV, Philly I, II & IV
    10: St. Louis, Columbus, Buffalo, DC, Hartford, Boston
    11: PJ20 I & II, Montreal, Toronto I & II, Ottawa, Hamilton, Winnipeg, Calgary, Edmonton, Vancouver, Sao Paulo I & II, Rio, Costa Rica, Mexico City
    12: Berlin I & II, Stockholm, Oslo, Copenhagen, Philly, Pensacola
    13: Chicago, Worcester I & II, Brooklyn II, Philly I & II, Hartford, Baltimore, Charlotte, Phoenix, San Diego, LA II, Oakland, Vancouver
    14: Milan, Trieste, Cincinnati, Austin I, Memphis, St Paul, Denver, Bridge School II
    15: NYC, Bogota, Mexico City
    16: Miami, Tampa, Hampton, NYC I & II, Quebec, Toronto I, Fenway II, Wrigley II
    18: Barcelona, Madrid, Seattle I, Boston I & II
    22: Glendale, Oakland I, Sacramento, Toronto, Quebec, Hamilton, MSG, Camden, Nashville, Denver, Amsterdam I, Zurich, Vienna, Prague
  • GibsonGibson Toronto Posts: 2,654
    samnation wrote:
    I believe PJ's ticket prices are going to help them survive this economic slump the country is in. U2's $250 is freakin' ridiculous for a rock concert these days. People are getting laid off, losing their houses, getting pay cuts, it's almost insulting to charge that much right now.

    That's exactly why they have 30$ and 55$ tickets. There are still people that enjoy U2 and can pay 250$ a shot. This is besides the fact that concerts are a luxury to begin with. I highly doubt the people without jobs are considering going at all. Whether anyone likes it or not, U2 is still the biggest band in the world, and deservedly so. I know PJ doesn't rip off their fans, but I don't need to compare them to U2 to justify it. This thread is a moot point.
    1998: Barrie  2000: Toronto  2005: Kitchener, London, Hamilton, Toronto  2006: Toronto 1&2, Paris, Milan, Torino, Pistoia  2009: Calgary, Vancouver  2011: Canada  2013: London, Wrigley, Philly 1&2  2014: St. Louis, ACL 1, Detroit  2016: Lexington, Quebec, Ottawa, Toronto 1&2, Fenway 1&2, Wrigley 1&2  2017: EV - Louisville  2018: London 1&2, Milan, Padova, Rome, Prague, Krakow, Berlin, Wrigley 1&2, Fenway 1&2  2020: Toronto, Ottawa, Hamilton  2021: London 1&2  2022: Hamilton, Toronto  2023: Chicago 1&2, Noblesville  2024: Seattle 1&2, Noblesville, Wrigley 1&2

  • ZanneZanne Posts: 899
    uglybabo wrote:
    I think the idea behind the U2360 tour is no obstructed seats.

    Granted, nosebleed seats at a stadium aren't that great for a concert.

    I have a feeling that this one is going to be different, and that you'll want to be sitting further away that usual... To take it all in, so to speak

    I will be.. I'll be sitting in my living room saving some money.
    Just me
  • brother123brother123 Posts: 792
    samnation wrote:
    I believe PJ's ticket prices are going to help them survive this economic slump the country is in. U2's $250 is freakin' ridiculous for a rock concert these days. People are getting laid off, losing their houses, getting pay cuts, it's almost insulting to charge that much right now.

    I seriously doubt Pearl Jam members are hurting in this economy.
  • FahkaFahka Posts: 3,187
    oh don't you worry.. you'll be paying u2 prices for pearl jam eventually (sort of inevitable? Each year it goes up at least a few bucks so, i can see it happening eventually) .... I am trying to enjoy what simplicity we have now , who knows when it will expire :D
  • FahkaFahka Posts: 3,187
    MrGibbons wrote:
    samnation wrote:
    I believe PJ's ticket prices are going to help them survive this economic slump the country is in. U2's $250 is freakin' ridiculous for a rock concert these days. People are getting laid off, losing their houses, getting pay cuts, it's almost insulting to charge that much right now.

    That's exactly why they have 30$ and 55$ tickets. There are still people that enjoy U2 and can pay 250$ a shot. This is besides the fact that concerts are a luxury to begin with. I highly doubt the people without jobs are considering going at all. Whether anyone likes it or not, U2 is still the biggest band in the world, and deservedly so. I know PJ doesn't rip off their fans, but I don't need to compare them to U2 to justify it. This thread is a moot point.


    I wouldnt pay 20 bucks to see U2... hail hail the stupid ones with credit cards i suppose :mrgreen:
  • walkunafraidwalkunafraid Posts: 2,613
    MrGibbons wrote:
    samnation wrote:
    I believe PJ's ticket prices are going to help them survive this economic slump the country is in. U2's $250 is freakin' ridiculous for a rock concert these days. People are getting laid off, losing their houses, getting pay cuts, it's almost insulting to charge that much right now.

    That's exactly why they have 30$ and 55$ tickets. There are still people that enjoy U2 and can pay 250$ a shot. This is besides the fact that concerts are a luxury to begin with. I highly doubt the people without jobs are considering going at all. Whether anyone likes it or not, U2 is still the biggest band in the world, and deservedly so. I know PJ doesn't rip off their fans, but I don't need to compare them to U2 to justify it. This thread is a moot point.


    I wouldnt pay 20 bucks to see U2... hail hail the stupid ones with credit cards i suppose :mrgreen:

    It's pretty arrogant to call people "stupid" just because they like a band that you don't.
    Everything has chains...Absolutely nothing's changed. - PJ

    “The only way to deal with an unfree world is to become so absolutely free that your very existence is an act of rebellion.” - Albert Camus
  • FahkaFahka Posts: 3,187
    It's pretty arrogant to call people "stupid" just because they like a band that you don't.


    I'ts pretty arrogant to put words in someone's mouth as well , but i'm a classy kind of person so i'll let you slide ...i said nothing about them being stupid due to liking the band... i think anyone who would spend that kind of money on a concert is a little ignorant.. be it U2 or anyone else..I was not insulting anyone's music taste rather the lack of sensibility to be able to assign value to money.
  • walkunafraidwalkunafraid Posts: 2,613
    It's pretty arrogant to call people "stupid" just because they like a band that you don't.


    I'ts pretty arrogant to put words in someone's mouth as well , but i'm a classy kind of person so i'll let you slide ...i said nothing about them being stupid due to liking the band... i think anyone who would spend that kind of money on a concert is a little ignorant.. be it U2 or anyone else..I was not insulting anyone's music taste rather the lack of sensibility to be able to assign value to money.

    You did say "I wouldnt pay 20 bucks to see U2," not "I wouldn't pay 20 bucks to see a concert." There's a big difference between the two.
    Everything has chains...Absolutely nothing's changed. - PJ

    “The only way to deal with an unfree world is to become so absolutely free that your very existence is an act of rebellion.” - Albert Camus
  • FahkaFahka Posts: 3,187
    It's pretty arrogant to call people "stupid" just because they like a band that you don't.


    I'ts pretty arrogant to put words in someone's mouth as well , but i'm a classy kind of person so i'll let you slide ...i said nothing about them being stupid due to liking the band... i think anyone who would spend that kind of money on a concert is a little ignorant.. be it U2 or anyone else..I was not insulting anyone's music taste rather the lack of sensibility to be able to assign value to money.

    You did say "I wouldnt pay 20 bucks to see U2," not "I wouldn't pay 20 bucks to see a concert." There's a big difference between the two.


    what? I can't not like u2 at the same time i don't believe in paying a silly amount of money to see a show?
    You are way off base here and unless u can quote me as saying "I think people who like u2 are stupid" I believe this exchange is rather redundant and over.
  • walkunafraidwalkunafraid Posts: 2,613


    I'ts pretty arrogant to put words in someone's mouth as well , but i'm a classy kind of person so i'll let you slide ...i said nothing about them being stupid due to liking the band... i think anyone who would spend that kind of money on a concert is a little ignorant.. be it U2 or anyone else..I was not insulting anyone's music taste rather the lack of sensibility to be able to assign value to money.

    You did say "I wouldnt pay 20 bucks to see U2," not "I wouldn't pay 20 bucks to see a concert." There's a big difference between the two.[/quote]


    what? I can't not like u2 at the same time i don't believe in paying a silly amount of money to see a show?
    You are way off base here and unless u can quote me as saying "I think people who like u2 are stupid" I believe this exchange is rather redundant and over.[/quote]

    I'm not really in the mood for fighting today, especially since I actually like and respect you based on what I have seen from you on these boards. Perhaps I misread your original post. If that's the case then I apologize.
    Everything has chains...Absolutely nothing's changed. - PJ

    “The only way to deal with an unfree world is to become so absolutely free that your very existence is an act of rebellion.” - Albert Camus
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