I will preface this by saying I would not want my daughters to do this, and would expect them to find more wholesome options. What I will say here does not hold true for every college coed...
I have started several responses to those that have quoted me in this thread. I opted not to continue them because like you, I had opinions about dancers before I worked with a few of them. True, many are desperate. Some are not. Some are using their looks to make it through college and get on with their lives.
At the end of the day, if a dancer entices a customer to buy a lapdance or 2 or 3, and that customer enjoys 15 minutes alone with a beautiful woman who is seemingly paying a lot of attention to him, I see this as a win-win. I see a guy who feels a little better about himself, even if that bolstered self esteem is based on an act. He still walks out feeling a little better about himself (often). The girl is using her looks and frollicking around in a g-string, showing only a little more than many women show on the beaches, in clubs, etc. and making better money than if she was working in the college bookstore or local starbucks.
Truly, I don't see the harm... and in speaking with some of these women, I don't think they are getting hurt or hurting anyone else. For the ones that think this is their only option or those that use this as a gateway to a different "profession" (like prostitution), or get caught up in the drug culture and the desperation, I do think it is a shame.
Until you sit with someone and really get the opportunity to get inside their head and learn about what makes them tick, it is easy to paint everyone with the same brush. I would strongly recommend against doing this, though.
Again, I would not want my daughters going down this path, and would not expect them not to. They are being given a very solid foundation, whereas not all of today's youth is. Even the kindest, brightest strippers I have counseled usually came from less than ideal family situations.
were you a stripper?
that is why I said desperate. the feeling in the back room when you are dressing or undressing as the case may be, feels desperate. and you start to see people not as people but as car payments. and for women who aren't just dabbling in a field for field experience, but the ones that feel like their breasts are their only viable means of income, yeah it's desperate. It alters your feelings of sexuality, sensuality and it is a bit of a mind fuck really.
I was not making generalized statements regarding the "type" of woman who strips. and I am inclined to agree that there is an element of win-win. but, please be aware, that it is a short lived win on both sides.
being objectified and objectifying has a lasting impact on feelings of self and societal standards of sexuality.
at any rate, this isnt an argument, it is merely two slightly shifted views, I mean no disrespect for your viewpoint, and I even see the value and truth that is embedded in it.
IF YOU WANT A PLATE OF MY BEEF SWELLINGTON, YOU'RE GOING TO HAVE TO PAY THE COVERCHARGE.
were you a stripper?
that is why I said desperate. the feeling in the back room when you are dressing or undressing as the case may be, feels desperate. and you start to see people not as people but as car payments. and for women who aren't just dabbling in a field for field experience, but the ones that feel like their breasts are their only viable means of income, yeah it's desperate. It alters your feelings of sexuality, sensuality and it is a bit of a mind fuck really.
I was not making generalized statements regarding the "type" of woman who strips. and I am inclined to agree that there is an element of win-win. but, please be aware, that it is a short lived win on both sides.
being objectified and objectifying has a lasting impact on feelings of self and societal standards of sexuality.
at any rate, this isnt an argument, it is merely two slightly shifted views, I mean no disrespect for your viewpoint, and I even see the value and truth that is embedded in it.
I was not a stripper - and can't speak from experience of having done it. I can speak from the experience of having counseled several who have (some who were severaly scarred and some who walked away seemingly fine).
You make some very valid points, and present a very informed viewpoint. It is nice to come across someone who , while not agreeing with everything in a posting, does not resort to name calling, insults, or worse. I respect your points certainly don't see this as an "argument."
I agree that there are many who feel as you described. I also believe that there are some that can walk away feeling okay with themselves. I would also go as far as to argue that the opportunity to become very jaded and embittered with men can happen very quickly (quicker for some than others). I would say that for those that walk away feeling jaded, it might cause life lasting scars.
I also agree with your point that the happiness is short lived most of the time. I would even go as far as to say that many men can become desensitized and need to escalate the thrill in order get the same level of satisfaction. There are many, many pitfalls to dancing and the whole "industry" - but even with that being that case, I would still stand by my statements that there are those that do it briefly as a way to get over a hump, and they can walk away feeling okay about themselves. Although this may represent the small minority, I can speak to some of my clients who have talked very openly with me about their experiences dancing, their past history, their greatest fears, etc, etc, etc.
I would say that we can agree to disagree, but we actually do agree on many points. On those that we don't, I can agree to disagree.
For those who scoff at "Jamily" in my name... 9 years ago, when my first daughter was born there were jokes about whether my priority would be my family or PJ. I smiled and quipped "I am a JamilyMan." What was a family joke became a hated term among jammers. Didn't see that one coming!
My comments were not meant to paint everyone with the same brush, but only to represent how I feel. Whenever people are used or objectified, it makes me sad.
I understand that the feelings of strippers vary widely. My sister used to manage a strip club so I spent many, many hours there and befriended many of the dancers. I used that opportunity to interview them for a senior thesis on the subject, and found that each woman felt differently about what she was doing and each had her own reason for doing it.
Some were miserable and humiliated; others were quite proud of themselves. One woman, upon being asked whether she ever felt exploited, said "I never thought of that!" and quit. Another woman already knew she felt horrible about what she was doing, but after actually saying it out loud she decided to quit as well. (My sister was kind of mad at me, but I swear my interviews were objective and not leading.) One woman was proud to show me the breast implants and sports car she had gotten some customer to buy for her, and told me of her long-term goal to act in adult films. Many thought of themselves as "dancers" - not "strippers" - and even likened themselves to pop artists and ballerinas.
Regardless, I see the whole experience as exploitative of everyone involved, and that makes ME sad - whether anyone else is sad or not.
My comments were not meant to paint everyone with the same brush, but only to represent how I feel. Whenever people are used or objectified, it makes me sad.
I understand that the feelings of strippers vary widely. My sister used to manage a strip club so I spent many, many hours there and befriended many of the dancers. I used that opportunity to interview them for a senior thesis on the subject, and found that each woman felt differently about what she was doing and each had her own reason for doing it.
Some were miserable and humiliated; others were quite proud of themselves. One woman, upon being asked whether she ever felt exploited, said "I never thought of that!" and quit. Another woman already knew she felt horrible about what she was doing, but after actually saying it out loud she decided to quit as well. (My sister was kind of mad at me, but I swear my interviews were objective and not leading.) One woman was proud to show me the breast implants and sports car she had gotten some customer to buy for her, and told me of her long-term goal to act in adult films. Many thought of themselves as "dancers" - not "strippers" - and even likened themselves to pop artists and ballerinas.
Regardless, I see the whole experience as exploitative of everyone involved, and that makes ME sad - whether anyone else is sad or not.
the ironic thing here is that the statement that made me respond in the affirmative towards your post was the one about with clothes or without...not having a good personal feeling "I don't think fooling men into thinking they are special so I can control and suck money out of them would make me want to hold my head up high, whether I had to take my clothes off or not."
I liked that. because it removed the stigma and the assumption about strippers/dancers et al.,
as far as the dancer/stripper fulfilling a a sexual need for a person, I wholeheartedly believe that all such arrangements are between the party involved.
once again, within the industry it is a sad case that while many women enjoy the financial possibilities, there are a vast number who feel that it is their one option. their one true value. and that is indeed sad.
at any rate, JamilyMan, and SCB, I think we actually do agree on a lot of the points, and if there is a difference it is in the intent and outcome. Which are truly subjective at heart.
IF YOU WANT A PLATE OF MY BEEF SWELLINGTON, YOU'RE GOING TO HAVE TO PAY THE COVERCHARGE.
Even though he's a gentleman he's still one freaky dude.
This would be a great song to play for his 92nd Birthday. Thanks!
Peace
*We CAN bomb the World to pieces, but we CAN'T bomb it into PEACE*...Michael Franti
*MUSIC IS the expression of EMOTION.....and that POLITICS IS merely the DECOY of PERCEPTION*
.....song_Music & Politics....Michael Franti
*The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite INSANE*....Nikola Tesla(a man who shaped our world of electricity with his futuristic inventions)
Comments
were you a stripper?
that is why I said desperate. the feeling in the back room when you are dressing or undressing as the case may be, feels desperate. and you start to see people not as people but as car payments. and for women who aren't just dabbling in a field for field experience, but the ones that feel like their breasts are their only viable means of income, yeah it's desperate. It alters your feelings of sexuality, sensuality and it is a bit of a mind fuck really.
I was not making generalized statements regarding the "type" of woman who strips. and I am inclined to agree that there is an element of win-win. but, please be aware, that it is a short lived win on both sides.
being objectified and objectifying has a lasting impact on feelings of self and societal standards of sexuality.
at any rate, this isnt an argument, it is merely two slightly shifted views, I mean no disrespect for your viewpoint, and I even see the value and truth that is embedded in it.
I was not a stripper - and can't speak from experience of having done it. I can speak from the experience of having counseled several who have (some who were severaly scarred and some who walked away seemingly fine).
You make some very valid points, and present a very informed viewpoint. It is nice to come across someone who , while not agreeing with everything in a posting, does not resort to name calling, insults, or worse. I respect your points certainly don't see this as an "argument."
I agree that there are many who feel as you described. I also believe that there are some that can walk away feeling okay with themselves. I would also go as far as to argue that the opportunity to become very jaded and embittered with men can happen very quickly (quicker for some than others). I would say that for those that walk away feeling jaded, it might cause life lasting scars.
I also agree with your point that the happiness is short lived most of the time. I would even go as far as to say that many men can become desensitized and need to escalate the thrill in order get the same level of satisfaction. There are many, many pitfalls to dancing and the whole "industry" - but even with that being that case, I would still stand by my statements that there are those that do it briefly as a way to get over a hump, and they can walk away feeling okay about themselves. Although this may represent the small minority, I can speak to some of my clients who have talked very openly with me about their experiences dancing, their past history, their greatest fears, etc, etc, etc.
I would say that we can agree to disagree, but we actually do agree on many points. On those that we don't, I can agree to disagree.
I understand that the feelings of strippers vary widely. My sister used to manage a strip club so I spent many, many hours there and befriended many of the dancers. I used that opportunity to interview them for a senior thesis on the subject, and found that each woman felt differently about what she was doing and each had her own reason for doing it.
Some were miserable and humiliated; others were quite proud of themselves. One woman, upon being asked whether she ever felt exploited, said "I never thought of that!" and quit. Another woman already knew she felt horrible about what she was doing, but after actually saying it out loud she decided to quit as well. (My sister was kind of mad at me, but I swear my interviews were objective and not leading.) One woman was proud to show me the breast implants and sports car she had gotten some customer to buy for her, and told me of her long-term goal to act in adult films. Many thought of themselves as "dancers" - not "strippers" - and even likened themselves to pop artists and ballerinas.
Regardless, I see the whole experience as exploitative of everyone involved, and that makes ME sad - whether anyone else is sad or not.
the ironic thing here is that the statement that made me respond in the affirmative towards your post was the one about with clothes or without...not having a good personal feeling "I don't think fooling men into thinking they are special so I can control and suck money out of them would make me want to hold my head up high, whether I had to take my clothes off or not."
I liked that. because it removed the stigma and the assumption about strippers/dancers et al.,
as far as the dancer/stripper fulfilling a a sexual need for a person, I wholeheartedly believe that all such arrangements are between the party involved.
once again, within the industry it is a sad case that while many women enjoy the financial possibilities, there are a vast number who feel that it is their one option. their one true value. and that is indeed sad.
at any rate, JamilyMan, and SCB, I think we actually do agree on a lot of the points, and if there is a difference it is in the intent and outcome. Which are truly subjective at heart.
Even though he's a gentleman he's still one freaky dude.
This would be a great song to play for his 92nd Birthday. Thanks!
Peace
*MUSIC IS the expression of EMOTION.....and that POLITICS IS merely the DECOY of PERCEPTION*
.....song_Music & Politics....Michael Franti
*The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite INSANE*....Nikola Tesla(a man who shaped our world of electricity with his futuristic inventions)