He is about to pass Roger Roids for 8th, and if you go and look at his stats, you will see the number of NO DECISIONS he has is STAGGERING really. The run support he has received over the years hasnt been stellar to say the least, and he SHOULD have ATLEAST 400 wins already. Even if he wins 1/3 of the games he got the no decision, he is at 400(yes, I kow that would constitue more wins for some others as well, but I am simply talking Greg M here). That to me is one of trhe most underated stats about him. Anyhow, I would put him top5 ALL TIME....all my opinion...carry on...:)
Maddux has a case for best ever, but I'm not sure about this argument. Clemens has more ND than Maddux does, and in fewer GS. So does Tom Glavine. Jamie Moyer is almost identical to him. I wouldn't read too much into it.
Anyways, as far as common answers to this thread that I would eliminate, I would mention Koufax and Nolan Ryan.
If I wanted a guy who had a short period of dominance with no longevity, I would take Pedro Martinez over Sandy Koufax.
And even though Nolan Ryan had moments of greatness, if you look at his career, he was essentially an above average pitcher for a very long time. A ton of K's, but also a ton of walks, and a nothing-special win percentage. May be just slightly better than Bert Blyleven, who isn't even in the HOF.
I think if you survey baseball historians the names you will come up with most often are Walter Johnson, Christy Mathewson, Cy Young, Lefty Grove, and maybe Dizzy Dean if his career hadn't been cut short due to injury.
Out of that list I would have to go with Walter Johnson as he picked up 416 wins for mostly terrible teams, and was the most respected pitcher of his day. However, I think if Satchel Paige had played in the MLB his entire career he would be right there with everyone else.
This is the post right here...
Casual fans always say Nolan Ryan...
Stone Gossard...riffmeister extraordinaire!
I am a man, I am advanced.....I am the first man to borrow Stone's leather pants!
I think if you are talking PURE TALENT(imho) you would have to go with Maddux, or I should say I will. The others are GREAT, dont get me wrong, but here is a guy that hardly EVER hit 90mph even in his prime and relied on movement and location and OUTSMARTING the hitters to get to where he is. If I wouldnt have been a Maddux fan all the years, you would have NEVER been able to convince me that he struck out over 3000 guys. Just doesnt look the part does he? POSSIBLY the smartest pitcher EVER. The others are MOSTLY power pitchers that have been mentioned. He is about to pass Roger Roids for 8th, and if you go and look at his stats, you will see the number of NO DECISIONS he has is STAGGERING really. The run support he has received over the years hasnt been stellar to say the least, and he SHOULD have ATLEAST 400 wins already. Even if he wins 1/3 of the games he got the no decision, he is at 400(yes, I kow that would constitue more wins for some others as well, but I am simply talking Greg M here). That to me is one of trhe most underated stats about him. Anyhow, I would put him top5 ALL TIME....all my opinion...carry on...:)
Well said.
Maddux is def. one of the best ever, and IMO the best of our generation.
Just think if he didn't play with the Cubs for all of those seasons how many wins he'd have. Hell, this year alone he should have at least 6-7 more wins.
Oh, and I think people tend to forget another aspect of baseball that needs to be considered...defense.
Not only is he the best "pitcher" of our generation, but he is the best fielding pitcher EVER...and that cannot be argued. How many gold gloves does he have...like 18?
I hope he plays another couple of seasons, though I think this may be his last year. :(
1996: Ft Lauderdale
1998: Birmingham
2000: Charlotte, Tampa
2003: Tampa, Atlanta, Phoenix
2004: Kissimmee
2008: West Palm Beach, Bonnaroo, Columbia
2010: MSG2
2012: Music Midtown
2014: Memphis
2016: Ft. Lauderdale, Miami, Jacksonville, JazzFest 2018: Wrigley 1, Fenway 1 2022: Nashville 2023: Ft. Worth II 2024: Baltimore
Well said.
Maddux is def. one of the best ever, and IMO the best of our generation.
Just think if he didn't play with the Cubs for all of those seasons how many wins he'd have. Hell, this year alone he should have at least 6-7 more wins.
Oh, and I think people tend to forget another aspect of baseball that needs to be considered...defense.
Not only is he the best "pitcher" of our generation, but he is the best fielding pitcher EVER...and that cannot be argued. How many gold gloves does he have...like 18?
I hope he plays another couple of seasons, though I think this may be his last year. :(
I think(hope) he will pitch at least two more seasons. Assuming that it is LA or SD. Dont think he will go anywhere else.
My friend was going to see Eddie last night. Since he was in Vegas, I gave him 5 Grand to gamble with. I told him I wanted it all to go on Black. Bastard! PhillyCrownOfThorns-11-2-12
Although I hate him because he was a red sock and now is a met...Pedro was unbeatable when he was in his prime...ill never forget the game he beat Clemens at Yankee Stadium for a 1-0 win?
2003: Uniondale, MSG x2 | 2004: Reading | 2005: Gorge, Vancouver, Philly | 2006: East Rutherford x2, Gorge x2, Camden 1, Hartford | 2008: MSG x2, VA Beach | 2009: Philly x3 | 2010: MSG x2, Bristow | 2011: Alpine Valley x2 | 2012: MIA Philly | 2013: Wrigley, Charlottesville, Brooklyn 2 | 2014: Milan, Amsterdam 1 | 2016: MSG x2, Fenway x2, Wrigley 2 | 2018: Rome, Krakow, Berlin, Wrigley 2 | 2021: Sea Hear Now | 2022: San Diego, LA x2, MSG, Camden, Nashville, St. Louis, Denver | 2023: St. Paul 1, Chicago x2, Fort Worth x2, Austin 2 | 2024: Las Vegas 1, Seattle x2, Indy, MSG x2, Philly x2, Baltimore, Ohana 2
Although I hate him because he was a red sock and now is a met...Pedro was unbeatable when he was in his prime...ill never forget the game he beat Clemens at Yankee Stadium for a 1-0 win?
I think durability HAS to be a factor in the discussion, and that disqualified Pedro a looooong time ago.
My friend was going to see Eddie last night. Since he was in Vegas, I gave him 5 Grand to gamble with. I told him I wanted it all to go on Black. Bastard! PhillyCrownOfThorns-11-2-12
Pedro would not even be on the AAA team for the best hurlers of all time. I can rattle off quite a few just from the top of my head that were worlds better than Pedro, and I don't think any of them pitched after 1960, Sandy Koufax excepted.
Dizzy Dean
Bob Feller
Ted Lyons
Babe Ruth
Walter Johnson
Cy Young
Satchel Paige
Maddux has a case for best ever, but I'm not sure about this argument. Clemens has more ND than Maddux does, and in fewer GS. So does Tom Glavine. Jamie Moyer is almost identical to him. I wouldn't read too much into it.
When comparing Maddux to Clemens, you have to keep in mind that Clemens is an AL lifer, while Maddux an NL Lifer. Big difference. Now if Clemens did the steroids, then it doesn't matter. He's out of the discussion. But if he is telling the truth, and he pitched clean, I'd have to say he's the best. it's hard to compare players from different eras, but Clemens pitched in a much more difficult time for a pitcher. And in a much more offensive oriented league
Consider the similar cases of Glavine and Mussina. Glavine si considereed the better pitcher, and certain HOF'er because of the 300+ wins. But if Glavine and Mussina switched leagues, I'm confident it's Mussina who would be a lock for the HOF, with 300 + wins today, and Glavine would be a 200-250 game winner
greatest ever (well, that I have ever seen and I'm in my 30's). he was dominat during the steriod era for christ sake. what more do you need to make a case. maddux a close second. hitters were juiced and they still embarrased them.
All that's sacred, comes from youth....dedications, naive and true.
greatest ever (well, that I have ever seen and I'm in my 30's). he was dominat during the steriod era for christ sake. what more do you need to make a case. maddux a close second. hitters were juiced and they still embarrased them.
So I just went to MLB.com to look at a side-by-side comparison of Maddux vs. Clemens and it is actually pretty crazy at how many of their stats are damn near identical.
Considering how different they are when it comes to pitching, it's actually quite amazing.
That said, I still think Maddux is a better baseball player.
So I just went to MLB.com to look at a side-by-side comparison of Maddux vs. Clemens and it is actually pretty crazy at how many of their stats are damn near identical.
Considering how different they are when it comes to pitching, it's actually quite amazing.
That said, I still think Maddux is a better baseball player.
Clemens played mostly in the AL. Maddux was offered to come to the Yankees but he declined.
When comparing Maddux to Clemens, you have to keep in mind that Clemens is an AL lifer, while Maddux an NL Lifer. Big difference. Now if Clemens did the steroids, then it doesn't matter. He's out of the discussion. But if he is telling the truth, and he pitched clean, I'd have to say he's the best. it's hard to compare players from different eras, but Clemens pitched in a much more difficult time for a pitcher. And in a much more offensive oriented league
There is NO QUESTION Clemens is dirty. Look at the guy. Pitchers(people in general) just dont get big like that without SOME kind of help. 1986 Roger is a COMPLETELY different guy than 2005 Roid Roger. Makes you wonder what his record would have been POST 97 had he stayed of the needle. AL or NL, Maddux did it clean and with LESS stuff than Roger. He out smarted hitters instead of blowing the away. Location, location, location...:D
My friend was going to see Eddie last night. Since he was in Vegas, I gave him 5 Grand to gamble with. I told him I wanted it all to go on Black. Bastard! PhillyCrownOfThorns-11-2-12
greatest ever (well, that I have ever seen and I'm in my 30's). he was dominat during the steriod era for christ sake. what more do you need to make a case. maddux a close second. hitters were juiced and they still embarrased them.
Maybe because the pitchers were also juiced. Just look at Gagne... take away the steroids and the guy is deflated to nothing. Same thing can be said for Pedro... when the crackdown on steroids started coming to fruition, his stats slid downhill.
Whoa, chill bro... you know you can't raise your voice like that when the lion's here.
When comparing Maddux to Clemens, you have to keep in mind that Clemens is an AL lifer, while Maddux an NL Lifer. Big difference. Now if Clemens did the steroids, then it doesn't matter. He's out of the discussion. But if he is telling the truth, and he pitched clean, I'd have to say he's the best. it's hard to compare players from different eras, but Clemens pitched in a much more difficult time for a pitcher. And in a much more offensive oriented league
There is NO QUESTION Clemens is dirty. Look at the guy. Pitchers(people in general) just dont get big like that without SOME kind of help. 1986 Roger is a COMPLETELY different guy than 2005 Roid Roger. Makes you wonder what his record would have been POST 97 had he stayed of the needle. AL or NL, Maddux did it clean and with LESS stuff than Roger. He out smarted hitters instead of blowing the away. Location, location, location...:D
I'm not saying he's 100% clean. he probably did it. But it hasn't been proven. And you're talking about 19 years. This isn't Lenny Dykstra who gained 40 pounds of muscle over the winter one year. My point is, if he is clean, he's one of the best ever, if not the best. if he cheated, then he doesn't even enter the discussion
If Pedro wasn't on the Red Sox, his name wouldn't even be in this thread.
He is far, FAR from the greatest pitcher of all time.
Well if you want to compare Pedro's best 6 and 1/2 years (he missed half of 2001) with Koufax's best 6 years you'll see they are very comparable. Pitchers had more starts per year in Koufax's era so the numbers are very similar except pitchers pitched complete games in Koufax' era. So if Koufax is in the conversation, Pedro needs to be:
Pedro 1997-2003
118-36 with a 2.20 era in 1408 IP (199 starts) 1,761 K's 315 BBs
Koufax 1961-1966
129-47 with a 2.19 era in 1,632 and 2/3 IP (211 starts and 12 relief appearances) 1,713 K's and 412 BBs
Now if you factor in Pedro pitched in a better offensive era and Koufax had the advantage of pitching on a higher mound you can't include Koufax as one of the greatest pitcher's ever without mentioning Pedro.
Johnny Vander Meer pitched back to back no-hitters.
And I have his autograph
My picks:
Tom Seaver
Sandy Koufax
Bob Gibson
Juan Marichal
Roger Clemens (in his prime, not on the juice)
Greg Maddux
Steve Carlton
Cy Young
Walter Johnson (possibly the greatest of all time)
and: Charles "Old Hoss" Radbourn. Look him up
Bright eyed kid: "Wow Typo Man, you're the best!"
Typo Man: "Thanks kidz, but remembir, stay in skool!"
Well if you want to compare Pedro's best 6 and 1/2 years (he missed half of 2001) with Koufax's best 6 years you'll see they are very comparable. Pitchers had more starts per year in Koufax's era so the numbers are very similar except pitchers pitched complete games in Koufax' era. So if Koufax is in the conversation, Pedro needs to be:
Pedro 1997-2003
118-36 with a 2.20 era in 1408 IP (199 starts) 1,761 K's 315 BBs
Koufax 1961-1966
129-47 with a 2.19 era in 1,632 and 2/3 IP (211 starts and 12 relief appearances) 1,713 K's and 412 BBs
Now if you factor in Pedro pitched in a better offensive era and Koufax had the advantage of pitching on a higher mound you can't include Koufax as one of the greatest pitcher's ever without mentioning Pedro.
the stats dont lie.
Pedro is far from juiced. look at him. he looks like a 12 year old. he has always thrown harder than his body could handle. had he done sterios, he would have probably been even more dominant as he could recover better.
he didnt just get guys out, he dominated them. his change, curve, and fastball were all devastating. definately my fav player to watch of all time (any sport), and definately in the conversation.
frank is a moron. if he didnt pitch for boston he wouldnt be in the conversation? had he pitched for a team that gave him more runs and didnt blow it for him (see Mets last night), he would have 50 more wins easy.
Kufax pitched 200 more innings and Pedro still has him with 50 more K's. That is dominance.
when pedro had two strikes on you, you had might as well just go ahead and start the walk to the dugout, becuse you were going to strike out. it was a foregone conclusion.
regarding Nolan Ryan, I would much rather have a guy on my team who is 150-50 than a guy with a 500 record with 7 no hitters. that said, Ryan was awesome.
All that's sacred, comes from youth....dedications, naive and true.
Yeah, the stats don't lie. Pedro had 2 SEASONS that stack up with guys I listed who had stats just as good, if not better for thier entire careers.
He is far from the best of all time. For 1999 and 2000 he was the best, I'll give you that. But all time? Hardly. Jim Palmer, among others, agree with me.
Yeah, the stats don't lie. Pedro had 2 SEASONS that stack up with guys I listed who had stats just as good, if not better for thier entire careers.
He is far from the best of all time. For 1999 and 2000 he was the best, I'll give you that. But all time? Hardly. Jim Palmer, among others, agree with me.
Comments
because you like catfish?
Maddux has a case for best ever, but I'm not sure about this argument. Clemens has more ND than Maddux does, and in fewer GS. So does Tom Glavine. Jamie Moyer is almost identical to him. I wouldn't read too much into it.
Anyways, as far as common answers to this thread that I would eliminate, I would mention Koufax and Nolan Ryan.
If I wanted a guy who had a short period of dominance with no longevity, I would take Pedro Martinez over Sandy Koufax.
And even though Nolan Ryan had moments of greatness, if you look at his career, he was essentially an above average pitcher for a very long time. A ton of K's, but also a ton of walks, and a nothing-special win percentage. May be just slightly better than Bert Blyleven, who isn't even in the HOF.
This is the post right here...
Casual fans always say Nolan Ryan...
I am a man, I am advanced.....I am the first man to borrow Stone's leather pants!
Well said.
Maddux is def. one of the best ever, and IMO the best of our generation.
Just think if he didn't play with the Cubs for all of those seasons how many wins he'd have. Hell, this year alone he should have at least 6-7 more wins.
Oh, and I think people tend to forget another aspect of baseball that needs to be considered...defense.
Not only is he the best "pitcher" of our generation, but he is the best fielding pitcher EVER...and that cannot be argued. How many gold gloves does he have...like 18?
I hope he plays another couple of seasons, though I think this may be his last year. :(
1b Cy Yyoung
Anybody that has pitched in the last 20 or 30 years isn't even in the team photo.
1996: Ft Lauderdale
1998: Birmingham
2000: Charlotte, Tampa
2003: Tampa, Atlanta, Phoenix
2004: Kissimmee
2008: West Palm Beach, Bonnaroo, Columbia
2010: MSG2
2012: Music Midtown
2014: Memphis
2018: Wrigley 1, Fenway 1
2022: Nashville
2023: Ft. Worth II
2024: Baltimore
Upcoming: 2025 Hollywood, FL Night 2
I think(hope) he will pitch at least two more seasons. Assuming that it is LA or SD. Dont think he will go anywhere else.
"Free Shipping" SPEEDY MCCREADY
My friend was going to see Eddie last night. Since he was in Vegas, I gave him 5 Grand to gamble with. I told him I wanted it all to go on Black. Bastard! PhillyCrownOfThorns-11-2-12
I think durability HAS to be a factor in the discussion, and that disqualified Pedro a looooong time ago.
"Free Shipping" SPEEDY MCCREADY
My friend was going to see Eddie last night. Since he was in Vegas, I gave him 5 Grand to gamble with. I told him I wanted it all to go on Black. Bastard! PhillyCrownOfThorns-11-2-12
Dizzy Dean
Bob Feller
Ted Lyons
Babe Ruth
Walter Johnson
Cy Young
Satchel Paige
no but his stats between 99-04 are INCREDIBLE, especially 99 and 00
1999
23-4
2.07 ERA
313 Strikeouts
2000
18-6
1.74 ERA
284 Strikeouts
and this is during the time when steroids were even bigger than they are now because no one knew
When comparing Maddux to Clemens, you have to keep in mind that Clemens is an AL lifer, while Maddux an NL Lifer. Big difference. Now if Clemens did the steroids, then it doesn't matter. He's out of the discussion. But if he is telling the truth, and he pitched clean, I'd have to say he's the best. it's hard to compare players from different eras, but Clemens pitched in a much more difficult time for a pitcher. And in a much more offensive oriented league
Consider the similar cases of Glavine and Mussina. Glavine si considereed the better pitcher, and certain HOF'er because of the 300+ wins. But if Glavine and Mussina switched leagues, I'm confident it's Mussina who would be a lock for the HOF, with 300 + wins today, and Glavine would be a 200-250 game winner
So I just went to MLB.com to look at a side-by-side comparison of Maddux vs. Clemens and it is actually pretty crazy at how many of their stats are damn near identical.
Considering how different they are when it comes to pitching, it's actually quite amazing.
That said, I still think Maddux is a better baseball player.
Clemens played mostly in the AL. Maddux was offered to come to the Yankees but he declined.
And as most baseball experts admit, he is also perhaps the smartest baseball player to have ever have played the game.
"Free Shipping" SPEEDY MCCREADY
My friend was going to see Eddie last night. Since he was in Vegas, I gave him 5 Grand to gamble with. I told him I wanted it all to go on Black. Bastard! PhillyCrownOfThorns-11-2-12
Maybe because the pitchers were also juiced. Just look at Gagne... take away the steroids and the guy is deflated to nothing. Same thing can be said for Pedro... when the crackdown on steroids started coming to fruition, his stats slid downhill.
Sandy Koufax or Nolan Ryan.
Hail, Hail!!!
I'm not saying he's 100% clean. he probably did it. But it hasn't been proven. And you're talking about 19 years. This isn't Lenny Dykstra who gained 40 pounds of muscle over the winter one year. My point is, if he is clean, he's one of the best ever, if not the best. if he cheated, then he doesn't even enter the discussion
He is far, FAR from the greatest pitcher of all time.
Well if you want to compare Pedro's best 6 and 1/2 years (he missed half of 2001) with Koufax's best 6 years you'll see they are very comparable. Pitchers had more starts per year in Koufax's era so the numbers are very similar except pitchers pitched complete games in Koufax' era. So if Koufax is in the conversation, Pedro needs to be:
Pedro 1997-2003
118-36 with a 2.20 era in 1408 IP (199 starts) 1,761 K's 315 BBs
Koufax 1961-1966
129-47 with a 2.19 era in 1,632 and 2/3 IP (211 starts and 12 relief appearances) 1,713 K's and 412 BBs
Now if you factor in Pedro pitched in a better offensive era and Koufax had the advantage of pitching on a higher mound you can't include Koufax as one of the greatest pitcher's ever without mentioning Pedro.
- 8/28/98
- 9/2/00
- 4/28/03, 5/3/03, 7/3/03, 7/5/03, 7/6/03, 7/9/03, 7/11/03, 7/12/03, 7/14/03
- 9/28/04, 9/29/04, 10/1/04, 10/2/04
- 9/11/05, 9/12/05, 9/13/05, 9/30/05, 10/1/05, 10/3/05
- 5/12/06, 5/13/06, 5/27/06, 5/28/06, 5/30/06, 6/1/06, 6/3/06, 6/23/06, 7/22/06, 7/23/06, 12/2/06, 12/9/06
- 8/2/07, 8/5/07
- 6/19/08, 6/20/08, 6/22/08, 6/24/08, 6/25/08, 6/27/08, 6/28/08, 6/30/08, 7/1/08
- 8/23/09, 8/24/09, 9/21/09, 9/22/09, 10/27/09, 10/28/09, 10/30/09, 10/31/09
- 5/15/10, 5/17/10, 5/18/10, 5/20/10, 5/21/10, 10/23/10, 10/24/10
- 9/11/11, 9/12/11
- 10/18/13, 10/21/13, 10/22/13, 11/30/13, 12/4/13
And I have his autograph
My picks:
Tom Seaver
Sandy Koufax
Bob Gibson
Juan Marichal
Roger Clemens (in his prime, not on the juice)
Greg Maddux
Steve Carlton
Cy Young
Walter Johnson (possibly the greatest of all time)
and: Charles "Old Hoss" Radbourn. Look him up
Typo Man: "Thanks kidz, but remembir, stay in skool!"
Pedro is far from juiced. look at him. he looks like a 12 year old. he has always thrown harder than his body could handle. had he done sterios, he would have probably been even more dominant as he could recover better.
he didnt just get guys out, he dominated them. his change, curve, and fastball were all devastating. definately my fav player to watch of all time (any sport), and definately in the conversation.
frank is a moron. if he didnt pitch for boston he wouldnt be in the conversation? had he pitched for a team that gave him more runs and didnt blow it for him (see Mets last night), he would have 50 more wins easy.
Kufax pitched 200 more innings and Pedro still has him with 50 more K's. That is dominance.
when pedro had two strikes on you, you had might as well just go ahead and start the walk to the dugout, becuse you were going to strike out. it was a foregone conclusion.
regarding Nolan Ryan, I would much rather have a guy on my team who is 150-50 than a guy with a 500 record with 7 no hitters. that said, Ryan was awesome.
He is far from the best of all time. For 1999 and 2000 he was the best, I'll give you that. But all time? Hardly. Jim Palmer, among others, agree with me.
http://www.baseball-almanac.com/legendary/lits10p.shtml
Click the link and check the stats flannel man. Pedro doesn't even sniff most of those numbers.
I guess the fact that he has the greatest era relative to his league of any starting pitcher in history is irrelevant to the argument.
http://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/ERAplus_career.shtml
- 8/28/98
- 9/2/00
- 4/28/03, 5/3/03, 7/3/03, 7/5/03, 7/6/03, 7/9/03, 7/11/03, 7/12/03, 7/14/03
- 9/28/04, 9/29/04, 10/1/04, 10/2/04
- 9/11/05, 9/12/05, 9/13/05, 9/30/05, 10/1/05, 10/3/05
- 5/12/06, 5/13/06, 5/27/06, 5/28/06, 5/30/06, 6/1/06, 6/3/06, 6/23/06, 7/22/06, 7/23/06, 12/2/06, 12/9/06
- 8/2/07, 8/5/07
- 6/19/08, 6/20/08, 6/22/08, 6/24/08, 6/25/08, 6/27/08, 6/28/08, 6/30/08, 7/1/08
- 8/23/09, 8/24/09, 9/21/09, 9/22/09, 10/27/09, 10/28/09, 10/30/09, 10/31/09
- 5/15/10, 5/17/10, 5/18/10, 5/20/10, 5/21/10, 10/23/10, 10/24/10
- 9/11/11, 9/12/11
- 10/18/13, 10/21/13, 10/22/13, 11/30/13, 12/4/13