I can't remember who else was in the Ellsbury deal, but for me at least, Ellsbury doesn't seem that intriguing as the main part of the package. Lester, I like. Hughes, I like. But there was no way the yanks or sox were giving up either pitcher.
"I've got things to do and things to say in my own way..."
If you look at Gomez's strikeout rates, he seems to project out to a Corey Patterson/Mike Cameron type. Humber and Mulvey have disappointed, with Humber already being 25. Guerra's a solid prospect, but hasn't pitched above Class A. Just tellin' ya what the scouts say...can't wait for Keith Law's assessment, which should come tomorrow.
The Twins' package includes two raw prospects with high ceilings and two near-in, low-upside arms. Carlos Gomez is a plus-plus runner, has a quick bat and makes a lot of contact with a wrist-heavy swing, but doesn't project to hit for power now because he doesn't use his lower half to get more power into his swing. He's an excellent defender in center with a plus arm -- imagine a Coco Crisp who could throw the ball to the catcher without 15 hops -- which may encourage the Twins to use him in the majors right now, even though his bat's not ready.
Deolis Guerra is almost all youth and projection at this point, with his one major current skill an above-average changeup. His velocity is fringe-average and wildly inconsistent within outings, so the optimistic projection is that he'll eventually sit 92+, but there's also a good chance that he settles in where he is now. His curve has some depth, but like his velocity is inconsistent, and his feel for the pitch is particularly poor. He has a great pitcher's frame, 6-foot-5 with very broad shoulders and lots of room to fill out, and the fact that he has an advanced secondary pitch bodes well for him improving his command and feel with experience. But the bottom line is that he's 18 years old, so in the best-case scenario, he'll be contributing in the majors in three or four years, and that's if he doesn't get hurt or hit a snag in his development.
The other two arms are major-league ready or close to it, but have limited upside. Philip Humber's curveball was once a big-league out pitch, but since Tommy John surgery, it hasn't been as tight and he hasn't commanded it as well, leaving him more reliant on his average fastball to get hitters out. He has good control and an average third pitch in his changeup, but his days of upside as a No. 2 starter are gone. Kevin Mulvey also has a three-pitch repertoire but lacks any kind of out pitch, making up for it with good command and a willingness to mix his pitches up to get hitters out. Humber has a chance to break out of the 4/5 pitcher group in Minnesota, which also includes Glen Perkins and Kevin Slowey, while Mulvey just gives them another cheap option if one of those guys isn't ready in April.
yanks and sox offers looked alot better than this.
Absolutely. The Twins f'ed this thing up huge. Should have traded him in December to one of the AL East teams...they would have gotten much more in return.
Great deal for the Mets.
I can't remember who else was in the Ellsbury deal, but for me at least, Ellsbury doesn't seem that intriguing as the main part of the package. Lester, I like. Hughes, I like. But there was no way the yanks or sox were giving up either pitcher.
Sox offers were : A.Ellsbury, Justin Masterson (pitcher), Jed Lowrie (SS), and Michael Bowden (pitcher) 2.Lester, Crisp, any 2 of the 3 minor leaguers from above.
Masterson and Bowden both rate much higer than Guerra and Mulvey, and most likely Humber as well.(Bowden has 259 Ks in 261.1 IP in his minor league career thus far)
Lowrie is probably ML ready for 2009, though the Twins could have slid him in for 2008 as they need a SS and had asked for him to be included. He is currently the #5 rated player in the International League, hit .297 in 337 AA at bats in '07, then was promoted and hit .300 in 160 AAA at bats.
Sox offers were : A.Ellsbury, Justin Masterson (pitcher), Jed Lowrie (SS), and Michael Bowden (pitcher) 2.Lester, Crisp, any 2 of the 3 minor leaguers from above.
Masterson and Bowden both rate much higer than Guerra and Mulvey, and most likely Humber as well.(Bowden has 259 Ks in 261.1 IP in his minor league career thus far)
Lowrie is probably ML ready for 2009, though the Twins could have slid him in for 2008 as they need a SS and had asked for him to be included. He is currently the #5 rated player in the International League, hit .297 in 337 AA at bats in '07, then was promoted and hit .300 in 160 AAA at bats.
The Twins got robbed.
I agree, you would expect them to get much more for Santana. However, I really think it was a lot of posturing between the Sox and Yanks. A lot of one team not wanting the other team to get him. And didn't Santana pretty much say he didn't want to go anywhere except boston or new york? I know he wasn't open to playing to many places. If I was a Twins fan, I guess I wouldn't be too pleased.
"I've got things to do and things to say in my own way..."
The Yanks and Sox deals were much better. However, they were bidding against each other at the time, and were not that comfortable with what they were giving up. They both pulled the blue chippers at the end, and left Minny with no choice. Minnesota's new GM sucks, and Minaya got lucky. Which is good news for all of the NL as that just means he'll keep spending money and screwing up his team for a few more years. Especially with little left on the farm.
Anyone who thinks the twins shouldn't have taken any of the Sox and Yanks offerings in December isn't really paying attention. There's a reason the Sox and Yanks have highly rated farm systems and the Mets do not.
Speaking as a Mets fan, I was disappointed that Omar had to trade Gomez and Humber. I think those two are going to make the Twins roster (and would've made the Mets' roster this year or next). However, I am extremely glad F. Martinez was not included in the package deal. He will be better than Gomez, Milledge, or any other OF to come through the Mets system since Strawberry.
Twins probably should have gotten more for a guy like Santana, but they waited until a few weeks before pitchers and catchers report. They had to drop their asking price (read on SI.com that Jorge Sosa was actually discussed in lieu of one of the younger pitchers).
Good deal for the Mets. I am a bit wary of big-time free agent pitchers. I mean, who was the last one that actually fluorished in his new home? But Santana to the Mets, with a good line-up behind him and a huge advantage at the home park, is a winning combination. Congrats to Omar; now lock the guy up for five more years.
Let's Go Mets!
.
Memphis 1994 New Orleans 1995 Fort Lauderdale 1996 Atlanta & Birmingham 1998 New Orleans 2000 Tampa 2003 Kissimmee 2004 New York City (x 2) 2008 East Troy (x 2) 2011 Chicago & New Orleans 2013 Hampton, Raleigh, Boston 2016 Baltimore2020 Louisville 2022 Philadelphia & Baltimore 2024
Speaking as a Mets fan, I was disappointed that Omar had to trade Gomez and Humber. I think those two are going to make the Twins roster (and would've made the Mets' roster this year or next). However, I am extremely glad F. Martinez was not included in the package deal. He will be better than Gomez, Milledge, or any other OF to come through the Mets system since Strawberry.
Twins probably should have gotten more for a guy like Santana, but they waited until a few weeks before pitchers and catchers report. They had to drop their asking price (read on SI.com that Jorge Sosa was actually discussed in lieu of one of the younger pitchers).
Good deal for the Mets. I am a bit wary of big-time free agent pitchers. I mean, who was the last one that actually fluorished in his new home? But Santana to the Mets, with a good line-up behind him and a huge advantage at the home park, is a winning combination. Congrats to Omar; now lock the guy up for five more years.
I think they'll compromise with five plus an option for a 6th.
He's already under contract for '08. They're negotiating for '09 and beyond, right?
.
Memphis 1994 New Orleans 1995 Fort Lauderdale 1996 Atlanta & Birmingham 1998 New Orleans 2000 Tampa 2003 Kissimmee 2004 New York City (x 2) 2008 East Troy (x 2) 2011 Chicago & New Orleans 2013 Hampton, Raleigh, Boston 2016 Baltimore2020 Louisville 2022 Philadelphia & Baltimore 2024
I agree that he'll want more than Zito. He's a far, far superior pitcher. I really think this may fall thru. There's a reason that Mets owner Fred Wilpon has earned the nickname Fred Coupon. The funniest part is, I haven't heard too many Mets fans talk about the yankees "Buying teams" anymore.....
I agree that he'll want more than Zito. He's a far, far superior pitcher. I really think this may fall thru. There's a reason that Mets owner Fred Wilpon has earned the nickname Fred Coupon. The funniest part is, I haven't heard too many Mets fans talk about the yankees "Buying teams" anymore.....
Yes, the Mets have become more active in the big free-agent market. But I think the complaint against Yankees management is that they get reported as having interest in most (if not all) of the big-time free agents in baseball. Maybe they don't buy their team, but they are the most visible and richest organization in MLB. Goes with the territory.
The Mets went out and got Wagner, Beltran and Pedro via free agency. Those were big contract gets. But who else would you add to that list? Alou? At 40 y/o and $8M/yr, he was hardly a major catch. Reyes and Wright are from within. Castillo and Delgado were acquired via trades, as were the other everyday starters Schneider and Church.
Even Santana is a trade. Yeah, they'll offer him huge money to avoid the free agency. But I don't know if the two situations are comparable.
.
Memphis 1994 New Orleans 1995 Fort Lauderdale 1996 Atlanta & Birmingham 1998 New Orleans 2000 Tampa 2003 Kissimmee 2004 New York City (x 2) 2008 East Troy (x 2) 2011 Chicago & New Orleans 2013 Hampton, Raleigh, Boston 2016 Baltimore2020 Louisville 2022 Philadelphia & Baltimore 2024
Yes, the Mets have become more active in the big free-agent market. But I think the complaint against Yankees management is that they get reported as having interest in most (if not all) of the big-time free agents in baseball. Maybe they don't buy their team, but they are the most visible and richest organization in MLB. Goes with the territory.
The Mets went out and got Wagner, Beltran and Pedro via free agency. Those were big contract gets. But who else would you add to that list? Alou? At 40 y/o and $8M/yr, he was hardly a major catch. Reyes and Wright are from within. Castillo and Delgado were acquired via trades, as were the other everyday starters Schneider and Church.
Even Santana is a trade. Yeah, they'll offer him huge money to avoid the free agency. But I don't know if the two situations are comparable.
.
C'mon you're third highest in Payroll. get used to the arrows. Plus the Yanks have started to figure out that it'a about a balance. Which they havent had since 00. They went too crazy buying the best people available. The Mets will be in it with teh Sox and Yanks on every major free agent and trade that hits the market.
Lowrie is probably ML ready for 2009, though the Twins could have slid him in for 2008 as they need a SS and had asked for him to be included. He is currently the #5 rated player in the International League, hit .297 in 337 AA at bats in '07, then was promoted and hit .300 in 160 AAA at bats.
Much of what I've read seems to indicate that Lowrie is already ML ready, but Lugo is in the way. Some scouts have said that, were he to play a full season in '08, he'd be a Top-15 SS.
i saw this morning in the paper. Im here in the twin- cities and i can tell you that people are pissed off. I am too. why would the twins ever do this?...for 4 prospects?
i think this deal works out solid for everyone.
the mets get THE arm that they need and hold on to the gem of their farm system in Martinez.
the loss of prospects is always going to hurt for a season or two but, that can be made up for through improved scouting and a trade down the road just like the twins just did.
whoever said alou wasnt a major pickup for the mets obviously didnt pay attention to the great production he put in this season even with time off for injuries (330abs, .341 avg, 49 rbis and 172 tbs).
yes the mets are spending on building and thats because they have to put a solid team in citifield in 09.
the twins got some great potential arms, and gomez is a highlight reel waiting to happen.
this season should be a solid one in the n.l. east. its just too bad florida will be missing two great players to help them in the division. i still wouldnt count them out, same goes for the rebuilding nationals.
i think this deal works out solid for everyone.
the mets get THE arm that they need and hold on to the gem of their farm system in Martinez.
the loss of prospects is always going to hurt for a season or two but, that can be made up for through improved scouting and a trade down the road just like the twins just did.
whoever said alou wasnt a major pickup for the mets obviously didnt pay attention to the great production he put in this season even with time off for injuries (330abs, .341 avg, 49 rbis and 172 tbs).
yes the mets are spending on building and thats because they have to put a solid team in citifield in 09.
the twins got some great potential arms, and gomez is a highlight reel waiting to happen.
this season should be a solid one in the n.l. east. its just too bad florida will be missing two great players to help them in the division. i still wouldnt count them out, same goes for the rebuilding nationals.
Mets get 2 first round picks in the draft (plus a sandwich pick between Rds 1 & 2). Those three picks, plus the signing of international free agents, should help them recover the farm system sooner rather than later.
This deal could only hurt them if--in 3/4 yrs--Santana has major injuries AND prospects have not been replaced through the draft.
.
Memphis 1994 New Orleans 1995 Fort Lauderdale 1996 Atlanta & Birmingham 1998 New Orleans 2000 Tampa 2003 Kissimmee 2004 New York City (x 2) 2008 East Troy (x 2) 2011 Chicago & New Orleans 2013 Hampton, Raleigh, Boston 2016 Baltimore2020 Louisville 2022 Philadelphia & Baltimore 2024
I get so wrapped up in the A.L. that I dont pay much attention to the N.L., but they showed some stats on that Met pitching staff last night, and they look pretty awesome. Team starter ERA of about 3.5? Thats insane. Thats gonna keep you in every ball game (figure that number translates to approx 2.7 per 7 innings pitched in todays game).
Definately the N.L. team to beat. Looking forward to the Red Sox beating the Mets in this years world series.
Asesome pick up, and thanks for pulling him out of the A.L.
All that's sacred, comes from youth....dedications, naive and true.
I get so wrapped up in the A.L. that I dont pay much attention to the N.L., but they showed some stats on that Met pitching staff last night, and they look pretty awesome. Team starter ERA of about 3.5? Thats insane. Thats gonna keep you in every ball game (figure that number translates to approx 2.7 per 7 innings pitched in todays game).
Definately the N.L. team to beat. Looking forward to the Red Sox beating the Mets in this years world series.
Asesome pick up, and thanks for pulling him out of the A.L.
They have a lot of "ifs," but there's certainly a ton of potential. Maine should be solid, but Pedro's health and Perez's consistency could be issues.
Comments
good for the twins... phil humber's a stud. :rolleyes: how many cy youngs do you think he'll win out there? i'm guessing at least a billion.
at this point, they might as well have settled for the two draft picks and kept santana for a world series run in '08.
agreed
agreed
and agreed
*Official Marker in the Sand Fan Club Junkie*
Member # 0003
wont let the light escape from me
wont let the darkness swallow me
Breaking out the part on the prospects:
The Twins' package includes two raw prospects with high ceilings and two near-in, low-upside arms. Carlos Gomez is a plus-plus runner, has a quick bat and makes a lot of contact with a wrist-heavy swing, but doesn't project to hit for power now because he doesn't use his lower half to get more power into his swing. He's an excellent defender in center with a plus arm -- imagine a Coco Crisp who could throw the ball to the catcher without 15 hops -- which may encourage the Twins to use him in the majors right now, even though his bat's not ready.
Deolis Guerra is almost all youth and projection at this point, with his one major current skill an above-average changeup. His velocity is fringe-average and wildly inconsistent within outings, so the optimistic projection is that he'll eventually sit 92+, but there's also a good chance that he settles in where he is now. His curve has some depth, but like his velocity is inconsistent, and his feel for the pitch is particularly poor. He has a great pitcher's frame, 6-foot-5 with very broad shoulders and lots of room to fill out, and the fact that he has an advanced secondary pitch bodes well for him improving his command and feel with experience. But the bottom line is that he's 18 years old, so in the best-case scenario, he'll be contributing in the majors in three or four years, and that's if he doesn't get hurt or hit a snag in his development.
The other two arms are major-league ready or close to it, but have limited upside. Philip Humber's curveball was once a big-league out pitch, but since Tommy John surgery, it hasn't been as tight and he hasn't commanded it as well, leaving him more reliant on his average fastball to get hitters out. He has good control and an average third pitch in his changeup, but his days of upside as a No. 2 starter are gone. Kevin Mulvey also has a three-pitch repertoire but lacks any kind of out pitch, making up for it with good command and a willingness to mix his pitches up to get hitters out. Humber has a chance to break out of the 4/5 pitcher group in Minnesota, which also includes Glen Perkins and Kevin Slowey, while Mulvey just gives them another cheap option if one of those guys isn't ready in April.
ya know people get mad at the yanks sox mets.. etc for spending yada yada
its not their fault all these other teams are dopes ,,and want to give away awesome players
what a ridiculous deal for the twins ,trade for a guy who had tommy john surgery lol
they should lose all these small market teams and make the league 8-10 teams
Great deal for the Mets.
A.Ellsbury, Justin Masterson (pitcher), Jed Lowrie (SS), and Michael Bowden (pitcher)
2.Lester, Crisp, any 2 of the 3 minor leaguers from above.
Masterson and Bowden both rate much higer than Guerra and Mulvey, and most likely Humber as well.(Bowden has 259 Ks in 261.1 IP in his minor league career thus far)
Lowrie is probably ML ready for 2009, though the Twins could have slid him in for 2008 as they need a SS and had asked for him to be included. He is currently the #5 rated player in the International League, hit .297 in 337 AA at bats in '07, then was promoted and hit .300 in 160 AAA at bats.
The Twins got robbed.
I agree, you would expect them to get much more for Santana. However, I really think it was a lot of posturing between the Sox and Yanks. A lot of one team not wanting the other team to get him. And didn't Santana pretty much say he didn't want to go anywhere except boston or new york? I know he wasn't open to playing to many places. If I was a Twins fan, I guess I wouldn't be too pleased.
Anyone who thinks the twins shouldn't have taken any of the Sox and Yanks offerings in December isn't really paying attention. There's a reason the Sox and Yanks have highly rated farm systems and the Mets do not.
Twins probably should have gotten more for a guy like Santana, but they waited until a few weeks before pitchers and catchers report. They had to drop their asking price (read on SI.com that Jorge Sosa was actually discussed in lieu of one of the younger pitchers).
Good deal for the Mets. I am a bit wary of big-time free agent pitchers. I mean, who was the last one that actually fluorished in his new home? But Santana to the Mets, with a good line-up behind him and a huge advantage at the home park, is a winning combination. Congrats to Omar; now lock the guy up for five more years.
Let's Go Mets!
.
New Orleans 1995
Fort Lauderdale 1996
Atlanta & Birmingham 1998
New Orleans 2000
Tampa 2003
Kissimmee 2004
New York City (x 2) 2008
East Troy (x 2) 2011
Chicago & New Orleans 2013
Hampton, Raleigh, Boston 2016
Baltimore 2020
Louisville 2022
Philadelphia & Baltimore 2024
its gonna take six or 7 years to get it done
I think they'll compromise with five plus an option for a 6th.
He's already under contract for '08. They're negotiating for '09 and beyond, right?
.
New Orleans 1995
Fort Lauderdale 1996
Atlanta & Birmingham 1998
New Orleans 2000
Tampa 2003
Kissimmee 2004
New York City (x 2) 2008
East Troy (x 2) 2011
Chicago & New Orleans 2013
Hampton, Raleigh, Boston 2016
Baltimore 2020
Louisville 2022
Philadelphia & Baltimore 2024
Santana is making 13.25 million this year and will be 29.
I doubt he signs for less than the 7 years 126 million that Barry Zito signed for.
So he will probably sign a 6 or 7 year deal.
- 8/28/98
- 9/2/00
- 4/28/03, 5/3/03, 7/3/03, 7/5/03, 7/6/03, 7/9/03, 7/11/03, 7/12/03, 7/14/03
- 9/28/04, 9/29/04, 10/1/04, 10/2/04
- 9/11/05, 9/12/05, 9/13/05, 9/30/05, 10/1/05, 10/3/05
- 5/12/06, 5/13/06, 5/27/06, 5/28/06, 5/30/06, 6/1/06, 6/3/06, 6/23/06, 7/22/06, 7/23/06, 12/2/06, 12/9/06
- 8/2/07, 8/5/07
- 6/19/08, 6/20/08, 6/22/08, 6/24/08, 6/25/08, 6/27/08, 6/28/08, 6/30/08, 7/1/08
- 8/23/09, 8/24/09, 9/21/09, 9/22/09, 10/27/09, 10/28/09, 10/30/09, 10/31/09
- 5/15/10, 5/17/10, 5/18/10, 5/20/10, 5/21/10, 10/23/10, 10/24/10
- 9/11/11, 9/12/11
- 10/18/13, 10/21/13, 10/22/13, 11/30/13, 12/4/13
Yes, the Mets have become more active in the big free-agent market. But I think the complaint against Yankees management is that they get reported as having interest in most (if not all) of the big-time free agents in baseball. Maybe they don't buy their team, but they are the most visible and richest organization in MLB. Goes with the territory.
The Mets went out and got Wagner, Beltran and Pedro via free agency. Those were big contract gets. But who else would you add to that list? Alou? At 40 y/o and $8M/yr, he was hardly a major catch. Reyes and Wright are from within. Castillo and Delgado were acquired via trades, as were the other everyday starters Schneider and Church.
Even Santana is a trade. Yeah, they'll offer him huge money to avoid the free agency. But I don't know if the two situations are comparable.
.
New Orleans 1995
Fort Lauderdale 1996
Atlanta & Birmingham 1998
New Orleans 2000
Tampa 2003
Kissimmee 2004
New York City (x 2) 2008
East Troy (x 2) 2011
Chicago & New Orleans 2013
Hampton, Raleigh, Boston 2016
Baltimore 2020
Louisville 2022
Philadelphia & Baltimore 2024
Much of what I've read seems to indicate that Lowrie is already ML ready, but Lugo is in the way. Some scouts have said that, were he to play a full season in '08, he'd be a Top-15 SS.
"No one cares about climbing stairs, Nothing at the top no more." Chris Cornell
the mets get THE arm that they need and hold on to the gem of their farm system in Martinez.
the loss of prospects is always going to hurt for a season or two but, that can be made up for through improved scouting and a trade down the road just like the twins just did.
whoever said alou wasnt a major pickup for the mets obviously didnt pay attention to the great production he put in this season even with time off for injuries (330abs, .341 avg, 49 rbis and 172 tbs).
yes the mets are spending on building and thats because they have to put a solid team in citifield in 09.
the twins got some great potential arms, and gomez is a highlight reel waiting to happen.
this season should be a solid one in the n.l. east. its just too bad florida will be missing two great players to help them in the division. i still wouldnt count them out, same goes for the rebuilding nationals.
Mets get 2 first round picks in the draft (plus a sandwich pick between Rds 1 & 2). Those three picks, plus the signing of international free agents, should help them recover the farm system sooner rather than later.
This deal could only hurt them if--in 3/4 yrs--Santana has major injuries AND prospects have not been replaced through the draft.
.
New Orleans 1995
Fort Lauderdale 1996
Atlanta & Birmingham 1998
New Orleans 2000
Tampa 2003
Kissimmee 2004
New York City (x 2) 2008
East Troy (x 2) 2011
Chicago & New Orleans 2013
Hampton, Raleigh, Boston 2016
Baltimore 2020
Louisville 2022
Philadelphia & Baltimore 2024
Definately the N.L. team to beat. Looking forward to the Red Sox beating the Mets in this years world series.
Asesome pick up, and thanks for pulling him out of the A.L.
"You damn well can't lick the system,but you can sure give it a good fondeling."-sleazy estate man(Hugh Laurie on A bit of Fry and Laurie)
"Judas Priest on a two stroke moped!"(Stephen Fry)
Now that's a Phillie fan!
They have a lot of "ifs," but there's certainly a ton of potential. Maine should be solid, but Pedro's health and Perez's consistency could be issues.