Pearl Jam & Catholicism

Kann

zootown wrote:

Well, one thing is for sure, convictions certainly bring out powerful emotions in folks-namecalling, defensiveness, insults- no matter what one believes, the power is pretty incredible.

fixed.
I've seen people on other music forums argue as politely as religious people when you speaketh wrong of their favorite bands!

edit :

I_Got_Shit wrote:

And don't you dare say that Scientology is any less of a religion than Christianity.

Cults are not religions.

MattyJoe

It would seem that one of I_Got_Shit's posts has been deleted. I think that's pretty ridiculous.

I_Got_Shit

Kann wrote:

Cults are not religions.

So who decides what's a cult and what's a legitimate religion? I'm not a Scientologist, but I'm sure their members would take offense at being called a cult. It's a system of beliefs like any other, no more or less valid just because it's been around for 50 years instead of 2,000.

I just wanted to counter the post that said it's only acceptable to mock Christianity. Late-night comics constantly ridicule Scientology, but I guess because that's a "cult" and not a real religion, that's OK. Their beliefs might sound strange to you, but Christian or Jewish beliefs might sound strange to others, as well.

And some of my posts were deleted, but I deserved it. I admittedly get a little over-excited about this topic, and certainly shouldn't have called anyone a sheep. My bad, MattyJoe. This topic probably belonged in A Moving Train anyways.

Cosmo

Green&White Disease wrote:

Hello All

I have got into the band in the last year or so and have bought all the albums and so on.

I have had a slight nagging discomfort having read previous interviews in which Vedder has "mocked" religion.

My own faith is a big part of who I am and I would like to know if there are any others on here with similar views.

Is it possible to be a big devotee of the band and still have your own beliefs.

I certainly don't claim to have the monopoly on wisdom and everyone is entitled to their opinion, just a touch concerned that my own views would be belittled here

Cheers

...
Here's my take on this...
You have your belief system... you have your resolve.
If you allow others (including singers in Rock Bands) dissuade you of your beliefs... how important were your beliefs in the first place?
Conversely, if you are insulted by someone else's opinion on your religion.. what does that say about you and the faith you believe in?
...
The problems I find with religions are their (seemingly) need to convert others to their beliefs... be it Christians or Catholics or Jehovah's Witnessess or Muslims or whatever. I think that is religious people simply accepted the fact that their way is not the only way... then religion would not be such a hot topic issue.

Collin

I_Got_Shit wrote:

So who decides what's a cult and what's a legitimate religion? I'm not a Scientologist, but I'm sure their members would take offense at being called a cult. It's a system of beliefs like any other, no more or less valid just because it's been around for 50 years instead of 2,000.

I just wanted to counter the post that said it's only acceptable to mock Christianity. Late-night comics constantly ridicule Scientology, but I guess because that's a "cult" and not a real religion, that's OK. Their beliefs might sound strange to you, but Christian or Jewish beliefs might sound strange to others, as well.

And some of my posts were deleted, but I deserved it. I admittedly get a little over-excited about this topic, and certainly shouldn't have called anyone a sheep. My bad, MattyJoe. This topic probably belonged in A Moving Train anyways.

I agree with you.

I've been to church, the dude in the front with the robe is constantly taking about sheep and how Jesus and the Lord are their shepherds.

And by the way, I think it's ok to mock any religion.

keeponrockin

MattyJoe wrote:

takes advantage of its followers.

As opposed to...?

angelica

Green&White Disease wrote:

Hello All

I have got into the band in the last year or so and have bought all the albums and so on.

I have had a slight nagging discomfort having read previous interviews in which Vedder has "mocked" religion.

My own faith is a big part of who I am and I would like to know if there are any others on here with similar views.

Is it possible to be a big devotee of the band and still have your own beliefs.

I certainly don't claim to have the monopoly on wisdom and everyone is entitled to their opinion, just a touch concerned that my own views would be belittled here

Cheers

I definitely relate!! I too experienced distinct discomfort with the mocking of religion thing you refer to, including that it emanates clearly from many fellow fans on this board. Yet I kept experiencing these cool little synchronistic experiences that continued to draw me here. And ultimately, I was able to resolve the differences I held between "believing" and "atheism". .... not to mention some other huge dichotomous beliefs I used to hold!!! Ah...clarity...what a beautiful thing!

We can always hold our own personal beliefs separate from others. And that's great, as long as it doesn't stop us from real-izing that deep down, we're all the same! Peace.

angelica

I_Got_Shit wrote:

So who decides what's a cult and what's a legitimate religion? I'm not a Scientologist, but I'm sure their members would take offense at being called a cult. It's a system of beliefs like any other, no more or less valid just because it's been around for 50 years instead of 2,000.

I defend Scientology myself, because many of their base tenets are psychologically sound ways to achieve varying levels of self-actualization! That's very cool.

At the same time, what garners this belief system the label of being a cult, from what I've heard, is that it's a closed system. Higher ups with-hold knowledge from the "lower" members. When a system is not transparent, and when it hides sections of it's belief system, in ways that can be deceiving to its members, it can be considered a cult or cult-like.

Not that socially shaming labels like cult really amount to much for anyone with the ability to discern for themselves.

Pacomc79

angelica wrote:

I defend Scientology myself, because many of their base tenets are psychologically sound ways to achieve varying levels of self-actualization! That's very cool.

At the same time, what garners this belief system the label of being a cult, from what I've heard, is that it's a closed system. Higher ups with-hold knowledge from the "lower" members. When a system is not transparent, and when it hides sections of it's belief system, in ways that can be deceiving to its members, it can be considered a cult or cult-like.

Not that socially shaming labels like cult really amount to much for anyone with the ability to discern for themselves.

was that not partially the reason for the protestant reformation?

angelica

Pacomc79 wrote:

was that not partially the reason for the protestant reformation?

Maybe! I haven't a clue. I'm not up on my religions...or history for that matter! I know we like to have our schools of thought open for scrutiny, and we look askew at those who have secret societies of any sort. Or the desire to choose what they like in private.

And actually, before the spiritual traditions became so open as they are now, and still in some places or disciplines, many traditions believe one is not ready for certain levels of knowledge...until they are ready. I definitely see the point of that!! Tell people the arcane secrets of the Universe, and they act like you've just slaughtered their family!!

People like the truth revealed one .....step.....at....a.....time.......so that it's palatable for them!!!

MakingWaves

Pacomc79 wrote:

was that not partially the reason for the protestant reformation?

Not that i remember. The main reason for the Protestant Reformation was the teachings of the Church that many people at the time saw as wrong. The the selling of indulgences to get you into heaven faster was the last straw for Martin Luther.

angelica

riffrandall wrote:

.

If you go over to "A Moving Train" you might be surprised at the kinds of fans that this band, or at the very least this message board, attracts. White supremacists, anti-semites and just all-out racists and homophobes. Sometimes all in one person.

LOL!!!

Oh my goodness.... that's about the funniest thing I've read all day....

...or maybe not......

angelica

Collin wrote:

I've been to church, the dude in the front with the robe is constantly taking about sheep and how Jesus and the Lord are their shepherds.

This is also very funny....and yet you also make a very, very good point!! It's a tad bit unfortunate that folks around here weild the "sheep" thing with such condescension and malice. Anyone who is in humanitarian fields like human resources, or otherwise dealing with human potential, know that the majority of the population look to leaders for guidance.

Heineken Helen

Stephen Flow wrote:

or Marker in the Sand (to name a few) even when you understand what they are about then that's fine.. I think the most important thing is to stick to what you believe in but do not let what someone else thinks spoil your fun.

I have my own personal interpretation of marker in the sand and it works .

Heineken Helen

BeerBaron wrote:

That said, one of my biggest problems with organized religion is the fact that may of those who are stong believers find the need to intertwine religion in to every single aspect of their life and let it determine what and who they like.

you could substitute 'organised religion' for 'Pearl Jam' and many many other things.

Heineken Helen

Stephen Flow wrote:

I'm rambling now but some people just need something to believe in and I do not have a problem with that as long as they don't aggressively push it onto me I am fine.

Its not always about 'needing something to believe in'. I was brought up catholic, became an athiest and from then there was quite the learning curve towards my own beliefs. I KNOW there's a god... but I don't expect everyone to know... because not everyone has gone through the same experiences as me to get where I am and to have my beliefs. But just as I don't patronise you for not believing, don't patronise me for believing

Heineken Helen

I_Got_Shit wrote:

So who decides what's a cult and what's a legitimate religion? I'm not a Scientologist, but I'm sure their members would take offense at being called a cult. It's a system of beliefs like any other, no more or less valid just because it's been around for 50 years instead of 2,000.

I just wanted to counter the post that said it's only acceptable to mock Christianity. Late-night comics constantly ridicule Scientology, but I guess because that's a "cult" and not a real religion, that's OK. Their beliefs might sound strange to you, but Christian or Jewish beliefs might sound strange to others, as well.

I agree... after all religion is only a word ... besides, does anybody actually KNOW what it really is that scientologists believe anyway? Maybe they really ARE the ones... who the fuck knows? I know what I believe and what feels true in my heart... but I'm sure everyone feels the same about their beliefs.

Heineken Helen

angelica wrote:

This is also very funny....and yet you also make a very, very good point!! It's a tad bit unfortunate that folks around here weild the "sheep" thing with such condescension and malice. Anyone who is in humanitarian fields like human resources, or otherwise dealing with human potential, know that the majority of the population look to leaders for guidance.

the ironic thing about the songs like faithfull and dte... is that when both performed live, it's like the crowd are worshipping the band... 'we all believe' is sung with eyes closed and heads back... and during dte we all sing in Ed's choir... I'm not sure it's quite what he wanted . However, coming from a man who speaks of respect and values and is quite inspirational himself, it is very hypocritical of him to decide what groups it's ok to diss.

South of Seattle

Heineken Helen wrote:

the ironic thing about the songs like faithfull and dte... is that when both performed live, it's like the crowd are worshipping the band... 'we all believe' is sung with eyes closed and heads back... and during dte we all sing in Ed's choir... I'm not sure it's quite what he wanted . However, coming from a man who speaks of respect and values and is quite inspirational himself, it is very hypocritical of him to decide what groups it's ok to diss.

I think that's why I don't raise my hands like everyone else during DTE. I also don't push back butterflies during Even Flow. It's idiotic if you ask me

You do make a great point though.

Heineken Helen

South of Seattle wrote:

I think that's why I don't raise my hands like everyone else during DTE. I also don't push back butterflies during Even Flow. It's idiotic if you ask me

You do make a great point though.

well hearing faithfull actually felt like being in one of those gospel churches you see in films and stuff! But I think very few people were singing to God... they were singing to the band.

South of Seattle

Heineken Helen wrote:

well hearing faithfull actually felt like being in one of those gospel churches you see in films and stuff! But I think very few people were singing to God... they were singing to the band.

That's how I feel during Marker in the Sand. Don't tell anyone because I'm agnostic

Heineken Helen

South of Seattle wrote:

That's how I feel during Marker in the Sand. Don't tell anyone because I'm agnostic

Your secret's safe on this board. I think marker could be a nice reminder to religious people! and we all call out to god at the end