Either way, The Voters and tax payers of michigan did nothing to "break the rules"- the politicians here did, and why shouldnt their votes be heard?
well if the voters are that upset about the politicians breaking the rules, perhaps they should remember that on election day and remind the politicians by voting them out.
make sure the fortune that you seek...is the fortune that you need
well if the voters are that upset about the politicians breaking the rules, perhaps they should remember that on election day and remind the politicians by voting them out.
And maybe they will. however, honestly, the choice to take away the voice of michigan voters was made by the DNC, NOT the michigan politicians. THey voted to move up the primary... the DNC decided not to recognize them.
And maybe they will. however, honestly, the choice to take away the voice of michigan voters was made by the DNC, NOT the michigan politicians. THey voted to move up the primary... the DNC decided not to recognize them.
that's a good point. Did the MI politicians know there could be consequences of the move? If they did and thought the DNC was bluffing....to me that's the same as taking away the choice.
make sure the fortune that you seek...is the fortune that you need
Hell yeah I'd like to vote and have it be counted. How would anyone living in any other state except MI or FL feel if you got to vote but it didn't mean shit. Worse yet you get to see how important you really are to candidates when they don't visit because it means shit to them and they don't profit. Too bad a few candidates aren't even in it this time if a re-vote was decided. I'm tempted to write him back in.
Either way, The Voters and tax payers of michigan did nothing to "break the rules"- the politicians here did, and why shouldnt their votes be heard?
Not living in either Florida or Michigan, I'm curious, is there actual outrage by the voters about being disenfranchised, and if so, who is the anger target towards?
Listening to state politicians talk, they come off to me as opportunist trying to make it look like they really care about their constituents. There was a point in an interview on CNN last night with Florida Gov. Crist, where I thought that the next thing out of his mouth could be something like, "Won't somebody please think of the children?".
My whole life
was like a picture
of a sunny day
“We can complain because rose bushes have thorns, or rejoice because thorn bushes have roses.”
― Abraham Lincoln
Not living in either Florida or Michigan, I'm curious, is there actual outrage by the voters about being disenfranchised, and if so, who is the anger target towards?
Listening to state politicians talk, they come off to me as opportunist trying to make it look like they really care about their constituents. There was a point in an interview on CNN last night with Florida Gov. Crist, where I thought that the next thing out of his mouth could be something like, "Won't somebody please think of the children?".
The economy is so bad here no one really thinks the money should be spent on it, to be honest with you.. in general at least.
HOWEVER. I will point out... No one mentioned doing this until Hilary decided to hint around to count Michigan and Florida, because in Michigan at least, she couldnt be bothered to take her name off the ballot, even though Obama and Edwards did..... And I think Obama will do very well in Michigan, so the more hilary bitches, the more people do want a revote.
We all agree the Primary system is fucked up... so lets hope MI and FL get a revote, which will basically ensure the whole system gets an overhaul in 4 years.
To those of you who don't live in either Michigan or Florida, you fail to recognize the importance of the people's right to have their vote be counted in this extremely tight primary race. I will be more than happy to vote for Hillary again and I know in my heart that she would win Michigan, again, with Obama's name on the ballot too.
Some of you Obama fans are petty and ridiculous. His supporters attitudes contradict his 'change' mantra.
EVERYTHING HAS CHANGED, ABSOLUTELY NOTHING'S CHANGED.
New primaries in Michigan and Florida will push Hillary closer to the White House. These are the type of states Hillary wins in.
~*~Me and Hippiemom dranketh the red wine in Cleveland 2003~*~
First PJ Show: March 20, 1994 | Ann Arbor | Crisler Arena
Not living in either Florida or Michigan, I'm curious, is there actual outrage by the voters about being disenfranchised, and if so, who is the anger target towards?
The DNC! Straight up.
Rigid rules penalized our two states for moving up our primary dates so that our first votes would really matter and help build up support for whichever candidate the state's popular vote supported. Michigan really wanted a say because things are so astronomically fucked up here!
~*~Me and Hippiemom dranketh the red wine in Cleveland 2003~*~
First PJ Show: March 20, 1994 | Ann Arbor | Crisler Arena
To those of you who don't live in either Michigan or Florida, you fail to recognize the importance of the people's right to have their vote be counted in this extremely tight primary race. I will be more than happy to vote for Hillary again and I know in my heart that she would win Michigan, again, with Obama's name on the ballot too.
Some of you Obama fans are petty and ridiculous. His supporters attitudes contradict his 'change' mantra.
EVERYTHING HAS CHANGED, ABSOLUTELY NOTHING'S CHANGED.
New primaries in Michigan and Florida will push Hillary closer to the White House. These are the type of states Hillary wins in.
the people's voice should be heard, i agree, and it sounds like it's best directed at the lawmakers who caused this to happen to you. Get rid of the them and make a change in your state so you get people who won't silence your say by not playing the political game.
why do the people who think there shouldn't be a re-vote have to be obama fans?
make sure the fortune that you seek...is the fortune that you need
, you fail to recognize the importance of the people's right to have their vote be counted
You fail to recognize it is not a RIGHT.
It is a PARTY primary.
It is not your constitutional right to have your voice heard in a party primary.
Sorry.
If they allow Michigan and Florida to have their votes counted, the entire Party process which they have set up can be subverted by a few dickhole states that want to flop it out on the table and say, "hey look mines bigger".
Get pissed at your State Party,
or get a real clue and realize that both parties are astronomicaly fucked and that picking a side is just conforming to the nice little boxed up norm they have prepackaged for you so you won't get too smart and actualy demand real change.
Go listen to the Lou Dobbs interview on Alex Jones from Thursday.
It should be on the youtube by now. Both parties are fucking you in the asshole. Try to wake up to that and stop crying over spilled milk which was spoiled anyhow.
If I was to smile and I held out my hand
If I opened it now would you not understand?
Rigid rules penalized our two states for moving up our primary dates so that our first votes would really matter and help build up support for whichever candidate the state's popular vote supported. Michigan really wanted a say because things are so astronomically fucked up here!
But why the DNC? They aren't the ones who moved primaries, knowing there would be consequences?
Just because things are so fucked up there on the state level, the nation should put you first?
My question that revote supporters have never answered, is what happens in 2012 if we allow a revote when 5 other states move theirs up to be first, then in 2016 more states move? Pretty soon primaries will in November, don't you think that is allowing things to get out of hand?
To those of you who don't live in either Michigan or Florida, you fail to recognize the importance of the people's right to have their vote be counted in this extremely tight primary race. I will be more than happy to vote for Hillary again and I know in my heart that she would win Michigan, again, with Obama's name on the ballot too.
Some of you Obama fans are petty and ridiculous. His supporters attitudes contradict his 'change' mantra.
I do recognize people's right to vote... but I spent most of my voting years living in PA, and we've never had meaningful votes in the primary, both nominations have been locked up. Why should Michigan and Florida be rewarded when they broke the rules? The funny thing is, if they would have just left the primaries where they were, they would be relevent.
And how is holding people (MI & FL legislatures) responsible, not change? We've been through 7+ years of holding no body responsible for their actions.
My whole life
was like a picture
of a sunny day
“We can complain because rose bushes have thorns, or rejoice because thorn bushes have roses.”
― Abraham Lincoln
why do the people who think there shouldn't be a re-vote have to be obama fans?
Because they are frightened of the outcome.
It tickles me that the media paints Obama's supporters as more college educated, worldly and liberal. But based on their comments throughout the entire internet, they are a bunch of hyper, critical, overly sensitive, paranoid "fans" who hate 'that monster' very much. Many are extremely irrational and I find it easy to blow them off.
~*~Me and Hippiemom dranketh the red wine in Cleveland 2003~*~
First PJ Show: March 20, 1994 | Ann Arbor | Crisler Arena
It tickles me that the media paints Obama's supporters as more college educated, worldly and liberal. But based on their comments throughout the entire internet, they are a bunch of hyper, critical, overly sensitive, paranoid "fans" who hate 'that monster' very much. Many are extremely irrational and I find it easy to blow them off.
I could really care less about the results... Hilary would win Florida, and probably pick up like 10 delegates, but Michigan would be pretty much a toss up where they split delegates pretty even. So for me, it's not about Hilary winning or whatever.
I just think that it's a terrible precedent to set, and while I hate "slippery slope" arguments, I think moving primaries really gets you on the slope. Unless the DNC would go to one big Super Tuesday where every state voted on the same day, they have to keep some sort of order on things and not have states just deciding to be first.
My whole life
was like a picture
of a sunny day
“We can complain because rose bushes have thorns, or rejoice because thorn bushes have roses.”
― Abraham Lincoln
It tickles me that the media paints Obama's supporters as more college educated, worldly and liberal. But based on their comments throughout the entire internet, they are a bunch of hyper, critical, overly sensitive, paranoid "fans" who hate 'that monster' very much. Many are extremely irrational and I find it easy to blow them off.
there's a lot of people who aren't even democrats that think the re-vote is a bad idea.
make sure the fortune that you seek...is the fortune that you need
Unless the DNC would go to one big Super Tuesday where every state voted on the same day, they have to keep some sort of order on things and not have states just deciding to be first.
But ultimately thats the goal. There really is no rhyme or reason to the current order other than "tradition." and thats a pretty stupid way to pick a president.
I could really care less about the results... Hilary would win Florida, and probably pick up like 10 delegates, but Michigan would be pretty much a toss up where they split delegates pretty even. So for me, it's not about Hilary winning or whatever.
I just think that it's a terrible precedent to set, and while I hate "slippery slope" arguments, I think moving primaries really gets you on the slope. Unless the DNC would go to one big Super Tuesday where every state voted on the same day, they have to keep some sort of order on things and not have states just deciding to be first.
That's what's comical to me....by having a re-vote they're actually helping Obama. If he has a roughly 100 delegate lead going into those states, Hillary will not pick up enough delegates to overcome that deficit. What WILL happen is that there will then be enough delegates on the table that Obama can pass the magic number, even with "defeats" in both states. As is stands now, neither will get to the 2100 or whatever is needed.
Hillary is banking on the fact that she can somehow trump the delegate count by pointing to popular vote wins in MI and FL as justification that she should be the nominee.
She's literally trying to bypass the entire system and any sensible dem should be outraged. If she doesn't have the delegates she should be the man she wants to be and just fucking quit. There's always 2012 for her to try again.
But she won't quit. She'd rather tear apart the party and see John McCain win than accept defeat with honor.
"Worse than traitors in arms are the men who pretend loyalty to the flag, feast and fatten on the misfortunes of the nation while patriotic blood is crimsoning the plains." -- Abraham Lincoln
It tickles me that the media paints Obama's supporters as more college educated, worldly and liberal. But based on their comments throughout the entire internet, they are a bunch of hyper, critical, overly sensitive, paranoid "fans" who hate 'that monster' very much. Many are extremely irrational and I find it easy to blow them off.
You make a very insightful observation on the behavior demonstrated by many Obama supporters. What you say is true, except I find Obama's supporters hard to blow off specifically because they are highly educated people, who should be examples of some of the best minds the country has to offer. Rather than talk up Obama, Obama voters tend to go to extreme lengths to talk down Hillary herself, since they cannot focus on policies the two candidates have nearly identical stances on. I haven't been everywhere on the internet, but I've been around PJ watering holes a lot and and elsewhere a bit. I am very disappointed with what I have "heard" at most of these places. The best place I've argued politics at is the independent and barely Alive usenet board--at least one of two people can argue their positions there coherently and intelligently in support of Obama without resorting to personal attacks on Clinton. And to that poor, limping board's credit...other than resident trolls, there has been very little invective over there. But here and at the other bigger board, I see a lot of hateful things in print. Most of what I see is not, "Wow! Obama is great for x, y and z reasons," it's invective and pejorative-filled screeds against Clinton. A lot of it is actually misogynistic, when you get right down to it. ("Kunton," anyone?)
Obama may be a candidate of change and of a different kind of politics, but many of his younger supporters have been politically forged under Bush and the politics of smear campaigns and lies. So, oddly enough, it appears to me that Bush has left a legacy easily swallowed...younger people who will support someone using old school tactics they learned at Bush's, Cheney's and Rove's knees. It is almost Orwellian, then, that a cadre of supporters who have no real limits on how low they can go and do go in many instances, are supporting a candidate of "hope, change and a new kind of politics," by utilizing the dirtiest, oldest weapons in politics. Talk about your Newspeak.
Granted, I realize there's hardly a hair's breadth of difference between Clinton and Obama...and I think that fuels some of the speech we see. People can't easily say, "Obama has the much better position on _______________," because they either don't have a detailed statement from the candidate on ________, or Obama's position is identical or nearly identical to Clinton's. (And that works both ways--Obama/Clinton and Clinton/Obama.) However, although that is true both ways, I don't see Clinton supporters running down Obama using tactics that amount, in many cases, to virtual hate speech the way I see it the other way around.
Some of you Obama fans are petty and ridiculous. His supporters attitudes contradict his 'change' mantra.
.
And clinton fans are just as whiny, opprotunistic and scandalous as the clintons themselves. The clinton camp had absolutely no problems with fucking rules when they stood to benefit from them. She didn't think she would be challenged in this election so it wouldn't matter. Ooops. Now lets go back on the rules we voted for. The fact that it is even being discussed reafirms my once held belief that our "elections" are a total sham. Hillary needs to shut her whiny fucking cake hole. How ANYONE can, in good confidence, vote for this woman is beyond me. Absolutely beyond me. You have the right to. i just don't fucking get it. Every time she opens her mouth i want someone to stuff a sock in it and cover it with duct tape.
"When all your friends and sedatives mean well but make it worse... better find yourself a place to level out."
You make a very insightful observation on the behavior demonstrated by many Obama supporters. What you say is true, except I find Obama's supporters hard to blow off specifically because they are highly educated people, who should be examples of some of the best minds the country has to offer. Rather than talk up Obama, Obama voters tend to go to extreme lengths to talk down Hillary herself, since they cannot focus on policies the two candidates have nearly identical stances on. I haven't been everywhere on the internet, but I've been around PJ watering holes a lot and and elsewhere a bit. I am very disappointed with what I have "heard" at most of these places. The best place I've argued politics at is the independent and barely Alive usenet board--at least one of two people can argue their positions there coherently and intelligently in support of Obama without resorting to personal attacks on Clinton. And to that poor, limping board's credit...other than resident trolls, there has been very little invective over there. But here and at the other bigger board, I see a lot of hateful things in print. Most of what I see is not, "Wow! Obama is great for x, y and z reasons," it's invective and pejorative-filled screeds against Clinton. A lot of it is actually misogynistic, when you get right down to it. ("Kunton," anyone?)
Obama may be a candidate of change and of a different kind of politics, but many of his younger supporters have been politically forged under Bush and the politics of smear campaigns and lies. So, oddly enough, it appears to me that Bush has left a legacy easily swallowed...younger people who will support someone using old school tactics they learned at Bush's, Cheney's and Rove's knees. It is almost Orwellian, then, that a cadre of supporters who have no real limits on how low they can go and do go in many instances, are supporting a candidate of "hope, change and a new kind of politics," by utilizing the dirtiest, oldest weapons in politics. Talk about your Newspeak.
Granted, I realize there's hardly a hair's breadth of difference between Clinton and Obama...and I think that fuels some of the speech we see. People can't easily say, "Obama has the much better position on _______________," because they either don't have a detailed statement from the candidate on ________, or Obama's position is identical or nearly identical to Clinton's. (And that works both ways--Obama/Clinton and Clinton/Obama.) However, although that is true both ways, I don't see Clinton supporters running down Obama using tactics that amount, in many cases, to virtual hate speech the way I see it the other way around.
I see it the other way. Plus the Clinton camp has gone negative the last two weeks and is playing the "scare card" commercials. Then there is her "me against the media, establishment, blah blah blah victim role she loves to play. I'm not an Obama supporter so I'm just saying what I see.
And clinton fans are just as whiny, opprotunistic and scandalous as the clintons themselves. The clinton camp had absolutely no problems with fucking rules when they stood to benefit from them. She didn't think she would be challenged in this election so it wouldn't matter. Ooops. Now lets go back on the rules we voted for. The fact that it is even being discussed reafirms my once held belief that our "elections" are a total sham. Hillary needs to shut her whiny fucking cake hole. How ANYONE can, in good confidence, vote for this woman is beyond me. Absolutely beyond me. You have the right to. i just don't fucking get it. Every time she opens her mouth i want someone to stuff a sock in it and cover it with duct tape.
I kind of support both Obama and Clinton. I'll take either. I don't want to stifle either of them. It's not really Clinton at the head of the pack urging for FL and MI to get counted, although I'm sure she's happy at the prospect. There are a couple of governors involved here whose constituencies are going to vote them out come the next election if the situation is not rectified--and probably even if it is. In fact, there are a couple of governors here that maybe personally prosecuted for doing what they did. And surprise, surprise...the big state at the focal point of all of this is FL, under a Republican governor. Deja vu. The Democratic vote gets shafted yet again in the sunshine state.
Florida and MI were wrong to jump the gun--MI was just stupid; tactically, FL under a Republican governor might have done just the right thing to make sure Democrats got screwed. But the US says that people have a right to vote and for those votes to count in a democracy. Somebody is going to have to do something about the voters that have been disenfranchised or there are millions of people who will have a their day in court to bring an end to voter suppression. The DNC cannot make rules that allow this kind of disenfranchisement and not face opposition. If you think so, you're in dreamland. If the situation were reversed, and Obama stood to gain, I'd still support it. Heck, if McCain stood to gain, I'd support it. Why? It's a democracy, and I believe I'd like to live in one. People in those states voted for Obama, as well as Clinton. Who knows what their positions are now? Maybe things will have flopped. Everyone likes to bet on what they think is the sure thing. I could be supporting an Obama win. Gosh, how horrible. The second-best candidate by a hair might win. How could I live with that? Very easily.
Maybe it's whiny to say that Americans are entitled to be able to vote unless they have had that right revoked by their own criminal actions, but I think not. This is also a states' rights issue. I think this is a huge bomb waiting to blow up on all Democrats if it is not quickly and properly addressed. And then something needs to be done so that the situation can never be repeated. No state should be able to make a decision that would allow it to guarantee that voters voices can't be heard, and no Republican or Democratic National Committee should be able to set up things so that a state could disenfranchise ANYONE.
Would a revote benefit Clinton? Probably. She takes the big states. Did she enter this grueling race to win? No, she thought she'd do it for the exercise. Gosh, what a concept. Playing to win. Obviously she's evil. She plays to win!
Republicans must be having a field day. We'll "kill" ourselves off and and they'll get us to pay for it, too. Silver plates like that don't come along very often, but they're "opportunistic" enough to take every one offered. Like all smart people do.
Your post contains violent imagery because your candidate might have to face the will of the people. Think about that, if you would. What does that say about you as a supporter of any political candidate? What does it say about our society and where we are now? My own reply even contains a "kill." The last time I actually saw a picture of someone considered an enemy with a duct-taped mouth it was a picture from Abu Ghraib. Where are we as a country? Violence permeates our thoughts and many of our actions. Clinton, for goodness sakes, is a political contender--not even "the enemy." I don't think Mr. Obama is as challenged as you are by the prospect of a FL & MI inclusion. I think that he thinks he can win-- regardless--something not exactly insane.
You make a very insightful observation on the behavior demonstrated by many Obama supporters. What you say is true, except I find Obama's supporters hard to blow off specifically because they are highly educated people, who should be examples of some of the best minds the country has to offer. Rather than talk up Obama, Obama voters tend to go to extreme lengths to talk down Hillary herself, since they cannot focus on policies the two candidates have nearly identical stances on. I haven't been everywhere on the internet, but I've been around PJ watering holes a lot and and elsewhere a bit. I am very disappointed with what I have "heard" at most of these places. .
You appear to be a very bright person, so it surprises me that you have not ventured beyond PJ messageboard political forums to get a broader idea of what kind of fans Obama has. Reading comments from MSNBC, CNN, NY Times, USA Today, etc, is just the tip of the iceberg. I focus on those mainly, but while there are some intelligent and calm commentaries in support of Obama, those are few and far from the extremist anti-Hillary/anti-female that are the majority.
While on one hand, that I as a black female should be comforted that a lot of Americans appear to be ready for our first black president and there's a slight sigh of relief that the issue of race & presidency is moving in a positive direction, as per primary appearances - I'm extremely concerned over the misogyny blatantly protrayed in the media against Hillary, and by Americans overall. It's like the media is being so careful in its reporting of Obama so that they don't appear racist... at the detriment of Hillary... but just fuck her, she's a woman, a white woman at that - so it's kinda ok to slam the shit out of her, but nope, not the black man.
I guess as a rare black female Hillary supporter, I see both sides very well, and see the shit very well too. But no one seems to care what people like me think about this primary race.
Anyway, to get back on topic, I too agree that it was a bonehead move by the politicians of Michigan to screw with our original primary date and move it up to January, damn well knowing the consequences. This is so fucked up and I'm really, really pissed as I may find myself sitting at home on Election Day if my homegirl doesn't win the nomination. I'm not voting for a smooth talker with no real ideas, just because he's black. And although I don't dislike McCain, I can't vote for a republican out of principle.
What happens, happens. fuck it.
~*~Me and Hippiemom dranketh the red wine in Cleveland 2003~*~
First PJ Show: March 20, 1994 | Ann Arbor | Crisler Arena
And clinton fans are just as whiny, opprotunistic and scandalous as the clintons themselves. The clinton camp had absolutely no problems with fucking rules when they stood to benefit from them. She didn't think she would be challenged in this election so it wouldn't matter. Ooops. Now lets go back on the rules we voted for. The fact that it is even being discussed reafirms my once held belief that our "elections" are a total sham. Hillary needs to shut her whiny fucking cake hole. How ANYONE can, in good confidence, vote for this woman is beyond me. Absolutely beyond me. You have the right to. i just don't fucking get it. Every time she opens her mouth i want someone to stuff a sock in it and cover it with duct tape.
To those of you who don't live in either Michigan or Florida, you fail to recognize the importance of the people's right to have their vote be counted in this extremely tight primary race. I will be more than happy to vote for Hillary again and I know in my heart that she would win Michigan, again, with Obama's name on the ballot too.
Some of you Obama fans are petty and ridiculous. His supporters attitudes contradict his 'change' mantra.
EVERYTHING HAS CHANGED, ABSOLUTELY NOTHING'S CHANGED.
New primaries in Michigan and Florida will push Hillary closer to the White House. These are the type of states Hillary wins in.
Hey that sounds like a line in a great Pearl Jam song:
Everything has chains, absolutely nothing's changed.
You appear to be a very bright person, so it surprises me that you have not ventured beyond PJ messageboard political forums to get a broader idea of what kind of fans Obama has. Reading comments from MSNBC, CNN, NY Times, USA Today, etc, is just the tip of the iceberg. I focus on those mainly, but while there are some intelligent and calm commentaries in support of Obama, those are few and far from the extremist anti-Hillary/anti-female that are the majority.
While on one hand, that I as a black female should be comforted that a lot of Americans appear to be ready for our first black president and there's a slight sigh of relief that the issue of race & presidency is moving in a positive direction, as per primary appearances - I'm extremely concerned over the misogyny blatantly protrayed in the media against Hillary, and by Americans overall. It's like the media is being so careful in its reporting of Obama so that they don't appear racist... at the detriment of Hillary... but just fuck her, she's a woman, a white woman at that - so it's kinda ok to slam the shit out of her, but nope, not the black man.
I guess as a rare black female Hillary supporter, I see both sides very well, and see the shit very well too. But no one seems to care what people like me think about this primary race.
Anyway, to get back on topic, I too agree that it was a bonehead move by the politicians of Michigan to screw with our original primary date and move it up to January, damn well knowing the consequences. This is so fucked up and I'm really, really pissed as I may find myself sitting at home on Election Day if my homegirl doesn't win the nomination. I'm not voting for a smooth talker with no real ideas, just because he's black. And although I don't dislike McCain, I can't vote for a republican out of principle.
Comments
well if the voters are that upset about the politicians breaking the rules, perhaps they should remember that on election day and remind the politicians by voting them out.
And maybe they will. however, honestly, the choice to take away the voice of michigan voters was made by the DNC, NOT the michigan politicians. THey voted to move up the primary... the DNC decided not to recognize them.
that's a good point. Did the MI politicians know there could be consequences of the move? If they did and thought the DNC was bluffing....to me that's the same as taking away the choice.
Sorry, they broke the rules they don't get recognized.
revote, should've included a poll
PEARL JAM~San Antonio, TX. 4~5~03
INCUBUS~Houston, TX. 1~19~07
INCUBUS~Denver, CO. 2~8~07
Lollapalooza~Chicago, IL. 8~5~07
INCUBUS~Austin, TX. 9~3~07
Bonnaroo~Manchester, TN 6~14~08
Not living in either Florida or Michigan, I'm curious, is there actual outrage by the voters about being disenfranchised, and if so, who is the anger target towards?
Listening to state politicians talk, they come off to me as opportunist trying to make it look like they really care about their constituents. There was a point in an interview on CNN last night with Florida Gov. Crist, where I thought that the next thing out of his mouth could be something like, "Won't somebody please think of the children?".
was like a picture
of a sunny day
“We can complain because rose bushes have thorns, or rejoice because thorn bushes have roses.”
― Abraham Lincoln
The economy is so bad here no one really thinks the money should be spent on it, to be honest with you.. in general at least.
HOWEVER. I will point out... No one mentioned doing this until Hilary decided to hint around to count Michigan and Florida, because in Michigan at least, she couldnt be bothered to take her name off the ballot, even though Obama and Edwards did..... And I think Obama will do very well in Michigan, so the more hilary bitches, the more people do want a revote.
We all agree the Primary system is fucked up... so lets hope MI and FL get a revote, which will basically ensure the whole system gets an overhaul in 4 years.
PEARL JAM~San Antonio, TX. 4~5~03
INCUBUS~Houston, TX. 1~19~07
INCUBUS~Denver, CO. 2~8~07
Lollapalooza~Chicago, IL. 8~5~07
INCUBUS~Austin, TX. 9~3~07
Bonnaroo~Manchester, TN 6~14~08
Some of you Obama fans are petty and ridiculous. His supporters attitudes contradict his 'change' mantra.
EVERYTHING HAS CHANGED, ABSOLUTELY NOTHING'S CHANGED.
New primaries in Michigan and Florida will push Hillary closer to the White House. These are the type of states Hillary wins in.
First PJ Show: March 20, 1994 | Ann Arbor | Crisler Arena
The DNC! Straight up.
Rigid rules penalized our two states for moving up our primary dates so that our first votes would really matter and help build up support for whichever candidate the state's popular vote supported. Michigan really wanted a say because things are so astronomically fucked up here!
First PJ Show: March 20, 1994 | Ann Arbor | Crisler Arena
the people's voice should be heard, i agree, and it sounds like it's best directed at the lawmakers who caused this to happen to you. Get rid of the them and make a change in your state so you get people who won't silence your say by not playing the political game.
why do the people who think there shouldn't be a re-vote have to be obama fans?
You fail to recognize it is not a RIGHT.
It is a PARTY primary.
It is not your constitutional right to have your voice heard in a party primary.
Sorry.
If they allow Michigan and Florida to have their votes counted, the entire Party process which they have set up can be subverted by a few dickhole states that want to flop it out on the table and say, "hey look mines bigger".
Get pissed at your State Party,
or get a real clue and realize that both parties are astronomicaly fucked and that picking a side is just conforming to the nice little boxed up norm they have prepackaged for you so you won't get too smart and actualy demand real change.
Go listen to the Lou Dobbs interview on Alex Jones from Thursday.
It should be on the youtube by now. Both parties are fucking you in the asshole. Try to wake up to that and stop crying over spilled milk which was spoiled anyhow.
If I opened it now would you not understand?
But why the DNC? They aren't the ones who moved primaries, knowing there would be consequences?
Just because things are so fucked up there on the state level, the nation should put you first?
My question that revote supporters have never answered, is what happens in 2012 if we allow a revote when 5 other states move theirs up to be first, then in 2016 more states move? Pretty soon primaries will in November, don't you think that is allowing things to get out of hand?
I do recognize people's right to vote... but I spent most of my voting years living in PA, and we've never had meaningful votes in the primary, both nominations have been locked up. Why should Michigan and Florida be rewarded when they broke the rules? The funny thing is, if they would have just left the primaries where they were, they would be relevent.
And how is holding people (MI & FL legislatures) responsible, not change? We've been through 7+ years of holding no body responsible for their actions.
was like a picture
of a sunny day
“We can complain because rose bushes have thorns, or rejoice because thorn bushes have roses.”
― Abraham Lincoln
Because they are frightened of the outcome.
It tickles me that the media paints Obama's supporters as more college educated, worldly and liberal. But based on their comments throughout the entire internet, they are a bunch of hyper, critical, overly sensitive, paranoid "fans" who hate 'that monster' very much. Many are extremely irrational and I find it easy to blow them off.
First PJ Show: March 20, 1994 | Ann Arbor | Crisler Arena
I could really care less about the results... Hilary would win Florida, and probably pick up like 10 delegates, but Michigan would be pretty much a toss up where they split delegates pretty even. So for me, it's not about Hilary winning or whatever.
I just think that it's a terrible precedent to set, and while I hate "slippery slope" arguments, I think moving primaries really gets you on the slope. Unless the DNC would go to one big Super Tuesday where every state voted on the same day, they have to keep some sort of order on things and not have states just deciding to be first.
was like a picture
of a sunny day
“We can complain because rose bushes have thorns, or rejoice because thorn bushes have roses.”
― Abraham Lincoln
there's a lot of people who aren't even democrats that think the re-vote is a bad idea.
But ultimately thats the goal. There really is no rhyme or reason to the current order other than "tradition." and thats a pretty stupid way to pick a president.
That's what's comical to me....by having a re-vote they're actually helping Obama. If he has a roughly 100 delegate lead going into those states, Hillary will not pick up enough delegates to overcome that deficit. What WILL happen is that there will then be enough delegates on the table that Obama can pass the magic number, even with "defeats" in both states. As is stands now, neither will get to the 2100 or whatever is needed.
Hillary is banking on the fact that she can somehow trump the delegate count by pointing to popular vote wins in MI and FL as justification that she should be the nominee.
She's literally trying to bypass the entire system and any sensible dem should be outraged. If she doesn't have the delegates she should be the man she wants to be and just fucking quit. There's always 2012 for her to try again.
But she won't quit. She'd rather tear apart the party and see John McCain win than accept defeat with honor.
You make a very insightful observation on the behavior demonstrated by many Obama supporters. What you say is true, except I find Obama's supporters hard to blow off specifically because they are highly educated people, who should be examples of some of the best minds the country has to offer. Rather than talk up Obama, Obama voters tend to go to extreme lengths to talk down Hillary herself, since they cannot focus on policies the two candidates have nearly identical stances on. I haven't been everywhere on the internet, but I've been around PJ watering holes a lot and and elsewhere a bit. I am very disappointed with what I have "heard" at most of these places. The best place I've argued politics at is the independent and barely Alive usenet board--at least one of two people can argue their positions there coherently and intelligently in support of Obama without resorting to personal attacks on Clinton. And to that poor, limping board's credit...other than resident trolls, there has been very little invective over there. But here and at the other bigger board, I see a lot of hateful things in print. Most of what I see is not, "Wow! Obama is great for x, y and z reasons," it's invective and pejorative-filled screeds against Clinton. A lot of it is actually misogynistic, when you get right down to it. ("Kunton," anyone?)
Obama may be a candidate of change and of a different kind of politics, but many of his younger supporters have been politically forged under Bush and the politics of smear campaigns and lies. So, oddly enough, it appears to me that Bush has left a legacy easily swallowed...younger people who will support someone using old school tactics they learned at Bush's, Cheney's and Rove's knees. It is almost Orwellian, then, that a cadre of supporters who have no real limits on how low they can go and do go in many instances, are supporting a candidate of "hope, change and a new kind of politics," by utilizing the dirtiest, oldest weapons in politics. Talk about your Newspeak.
Granted, I realize there's hardly a hair's breadth of difference between Clinton and Obama...and I think that fuels some of the speech we see. People can't easily say, "Obama has the much better position on _______________," because they either don't have a detailed statement from the candidate on ________, or Obama's position is identical or nearly identical to Clinton's. (And that works both ways--Obama/Clinton and Clinton/Obama.) However, although that is true both ways, I don't see Clinton supporters running down Obama using tactics that amount, in many cases, to virtual hate speech the way I see it the other way around.
And clinton fans are just as whiny, opprotunistic and scandalous as the clintons themselves. The clinton camp had absolutely no problems with fucking rules when they stood to benefit from them. She didn't think she would be challenged in this election so it wouldn't matter. Ooops. Now lets go back on the rules we voted for. The fact that it is even being discussed reafirms my once held belief that our "elections" are a total sham. Hillary needs to shut her whiny fucking cake hole. How ANYONE can, in good confidence, vote for this woman is beyond me. Absolutely beyond me. You have the right to. i just don't fucking get it. Every time she opens her mouth i want someone to stuff a sock in it and cover it with duct tape.
I see it the other way. Plus the Clinton camp has gone negative the last two weeks and is playing the "scare card" commercials. Then there is her "me against the media, establishment, blah blah blah victim role she loves to play. I'm not an Obama supporter so I'm just saying what I see.
I kind of support both Obama and Clinton. I'll take either. I don't want to stifle either of them. It's not really Clinton at the head of the pack urging for FL and MI to get counted, although I'm sure she's happy at the prospect. There are a couple of governors involved here whose constituencies are going to vote them out come the next election if the situation is not rectified--and probably even if it is. In fact, there are a couple of governors here that maybe personally prosecuted for doing what they did. And surprise, surprise...the big state at the focal point of all of this is FL, under a Republican governor. Deja vu. The Democratic vote gets shafted yet again in the sunshine state.
Florida and MI were wrong to jump the gun--MI was just stupid; tactically, FL under a Republican governor might have done just the right thing to make sure Democrats got screwed. But the US says that people have a right to vote and for those votes to count in a democracy. Somebody is going to have to do something about the voters that have been disenfranchised or there are millions of people who will have a their day in court to bring an end to voter suppression. The DNC cannot make rules that allow this kind of disenfranchisement and not face opposition. If you think so, you're in dreamland. If the situation were reversed, and Obama stood to gain, I'd still support it. Heck, if McCain stood to gain, I'd support it. Why? It's a democracy, and I believe I'd like to live in one. People in those states voted for Obama, as well as Clinton. Who knows what their positions are now? Maybe things will have flopped. Everyone likes to bet on what they think is the sure thing. I could be supporting an Obama win. Gosh, how horrible. The second-best candidate by a hair might win. How could I live with that? Very easily.
Maybe it's whiny to say that Americans are entitled to be able to vote unless they have had that right revoked by their own criminal actions, but I think not. This is also a states' rights issue. I think this is a huge bomb waiting to blow up on all Democrats if it is not quickly and properly addressed. And then something needs to be done so that the situation can never be repeated. No state should be able to make a decision that would allow it to guarantee that voters voices can't be heard, and no Republican or Democratic National Committee should be able to set up things so that a state could disenfranchise ANYONE.
Would a revote benefit Clinton? Probably. She takes the big states. Did she enter this grueling race to win? No, she thought she'd do it for the exercise. Gosh, what a concept. Playing to win. Obviously she's evil. She plays to win!
Republicans must be having a field day. We'll "kill" ourselves off and and they'll get us to pay for it, too. Silver plates like that don't come along very often, but they're "opportunistic" enough to take every one offered. Like all smart people do.
Your post contains violent imagery because your candidate might have to face the will of the people. Think about that, if you would. What does that say about you as a supporter of any political candidate? What does it say about our society and where we are now? My own reply even contains a "kill." The last time I actually saw a picture of someone considered an enemy with a duct-taped mouth it was a picture from Abu Ghraib. Where are we as a country? Violence permeates our thoughts and many of our actions. Clinton, for goodness sakes, is a political contender--not even "the enemy." I don't think Mr. Obama is as challenged as you are by the prospect of a FL & MI inclusion. I think that he thinks he can win-- regardless--something not exactly insane.
You appear to be a very bright person, so it surprises me that you have not ventured beyond PJ messageboard political forums to get a broader idea of what kind of fans Obama has. Reading comments from MSNBC, CNN, NY Times, USA Today, etc, is just the tip of the iceberg. I focus on those mainly, but while there are some intelligent and calm commentaries in support of Obama, those are few and far from the extremist anti-Hillary/anti-female that are the majority.
While on one hand, that I as a black female should be comforted that a lot of Americans appear to be ready for our first black president and there's a slight sigh of relief that the issue of race & presidency is moving in a positive direction, as per primary appearances - I'm extremely concerned over the misogyny blatantly protrayed in the media against Hillary, and by Americans overall. It's like the media is being so careful in its reporting of Obama so that they don't appear racist... at the detriment of Hillary... but just fuck her, she's a woman, a white woman at that - so it's kinda ok to slam the shit out of her, but nope, not the black man.
I guess as a rare black female Hillary supporter, I see both sides very well, and see the shit very well too. But no one seems to care what people like me think about this primary race.
Anyway, to get back on topic, I too agree that it was a bonehead move by the politicians of Michigan to screw with our original primary date and move it up to January, damn well knowing the consequences. This is so fucked up and I'm really, really pissed as I may find myself sitting at home on Election Day if my homegirl doesn't win the nomination. I'm not voting for a smooth talker with no real ideas, just because he's black. And although I don't dislike McCain, I can't vote for a republican out of principle.
What happens, happens. fuck it.
First PJ Show: March 20, 1994 | Ann Arbor | Crisler Arena
You....have......issues.
Hey that sounds like a line in a great Pearl Jam song:
Everything has chains, absolutely nothing's changed.
PEARL JAM~San Antonio, TX. 4~5~03
INCUBUS~Houston, TX. 1~19~07
INCUBUS~Denver, CO. 2~8~07
Lollapalooza~Chicago, IL. 8~5~07
INCUBUS~Austin, TX. 9~3~07
Bonnaroo~Manchester, TN 6~14~08