You know a lot of background on some of the HAVA requirements. I can tell you with the last 4 tears working on the county and state levels with elections and we have never had any problems with provisional ballots. The ones that go with election laws are allowed, and those tha do not, don't.
If you are in Illinois, chances are they didn't pervert the process in 2004. It was not a state that George W Bush had a shot at winning, even if 5 percent of the vote was suppressed. Are you aware of voters being shunted to "provisional" ballots due to "challenges" where you are? If so, was it on a large scale? Also, what are examples of things that don't go with election laws that lead to "a provisional" ballot being denied?
In 2004 in Ohio, there over 160,000 "challenges" that resulted in "provisional" ballots. Nationwide, the total was around 3 Million. Those are absurdly ridiculous numbers. Ken Blackwell is scheduled to appear before the House Judiciary committee tommorrow, I'm sure he'll be asked about some of this.
If you are in Illinois, chances are they didn't pervert the process in 2004. It was not a state that George W Bush had a shot at winning, even if 5 percent of the vote was suppressed. Are you aware of voters being shunted to "provisional" ballots due to "challenges" where you are? If so, was it on a large scale? Also, what are examples of things that don't go with election laws that lead to "a provisional" ballot being denied?
In 2004 in Ohio, there over 160,000 "challenges" that resulted in "provisional" ballots. Nationwide, the total was around 3 Million. Those are absurdly ridiculous numbers. Ken Blackwell is scheduled to appear before the House Judiciary committee tommorrow, I'm sure he'll be asked about some of this.
If a poll watcher challenges someones residence than the person usually has to vote provissional. I'm sure it happens in every county. Another instance is that if someone hasn't voted in two general elections they go from an "active" to "inactive" voter status, and if they show up to vote, and can't prove that they are at the same address than they will have to vote provissional.
One thing that causes a voter to get "purged" like is when the election authorities mail out new voter cards to everyone in the county, and if the post office tries to deliver it and the person doesn't live there anymore it's returned to the county. From that point they pupt that voter on the "inactive" list because they clearly don't live at the address the are registered at.
If a poll watcher challenges someones residence than the person usually has to vote provissional. I'm sure it happens in every county. Another instance is that if someone hasn't voted in two general elections they go from an "active" to "inactive" voter status, and if they show up to vote, and can't prove that they are at the same address than they will have to vote provissional.
One thing that causes a voter to get "purged" like is when the election authorities mail out new voter cards to everyone in the county, and if the post office tries to deliver it and the person doesn't live there anymore it's returned to the county. From that point they pupt that voter on the "inactive" list because they clearly don't live at the address the are registered at.
It seems to me that you are backing up the perversion of the process. In 2004, the RNC sent out welcome letters to new registrants (as the pretext to challenging voters). They only sent these out to new registrants they suspected would not be voting for their guy. They also sent mail to other African-American voters. They had to send these out "first class" at great cost to them (i.e. millions of $$). No election campaign sends out first class mail. It's too expensive. The letters were marked "Do Not Forward". If the letters came back, those registered voters were put on a list to be challenged at the polls and forced to vote via "provisional" ballot.
Letters were sent during the summertime to students who were registered at all black colleges. These came back because noone is there in the summer. Letters were sent to homeless people who had used a homeless shelter as an address on their registration. Since they were living on the streets, the letters came back. Most disgusting of all, letters were sent to African-American soldiers who were sent overseas. Of course the first class letters were undeliverable at the address they had registered from. All of these people were "challenged" by Republican operatives and if the vote counters were for the Republican candidate (i.e. George W Bush), these "provisional" ballot would get rejected. This is in large part how the 2004 election was stolen, although there were other methods employed.
You seem to be endorsing the HAVA law. The HAVA law was created under the guise of a well intentioned law, but it was actually put together by the Bush Administration to effectively suppress millions of likely Democratic candidate votes.
The mail scheme that was employed is something called "caging" and "caging" is an illegal felony if it is done to target voters by race. The evidence of "caging" was never supposed to get in the hands of anyone other than the criminals. However, some of the missing email from the RNC HQ computers was misaddressed and went to the wrong server. Now the Judiciary committee has the evidence and there will be jail time for one or more of the conspirators.
House Judiciary chairman John Conyers has introduce a bill to make caging illegal. Speaking for myself, when I was younger I was a registered voter using my parents address on my registration. Eventually, I moved around to a few different locations within 15 miles of that residence. During elections, I would still go to the polling place of my registration and cast my ballot. Apparently, I could have been subject to challenge and had my ballot rejected.
The whole system is being ravaged by those who don't want the people to decide who gets elected and they are using the incorrect notion that illegal aliens are voting and possibly voting more than once. This is not happening, but they want to create a hysteria to get support for voter ID cards. If they ever get that, the homeless and the poor will be locked out of the voting booth and Democracy will be dead.
If a poll watcher challenges someones residence than the person usually has to vote provissional. I'm sure it happens in every county.
Before the HAVA law, it never would happen or happened very rarely. In 2004, there were over 3 million challenges nationwide. I request that you stop being an apologist for this law.
Before the HAVA law, it never would happen or happened very rarely. In 2004, there were over 3 million challenges nationwide. I request that you stop being an apologist for this law.
I'm not being an apologist for this law. I'm paid by HAVA funds, my job is to get the whole state of Illinois (110 Election jurisdictions) up to code on a statewide voter registration database. I'm sorry you don't like the part about provisional ballots, but out of thirty pages of legislation for the bill I am sure there are things I would not agree with either.
An Act
To establish a program to provide funds to States to replace punch card voting systems, to establish the Election Assistance commissio to assist in the administration of Federal election laws and programs, to establish minimum election administration standards for Staes and units of local government with responsibility for the administration of Federal elections, and for other purposes.
Sounds like a real evil bill. There's much more to it than your provissional grievence.
Edit:
I have to be quite honest with you. I just re-read section 302 of HAVA, which deals with provissional ballots, and it does not mention anything about someone being challenged. If someones name does not appear on the official poll book then they are allowed to vote a provissional ballot. You might run into problems with these because some counties/states use provissionals as a way to end an argument at a polling place. It allows for it to be decided later with the county official making the call---who knows the laws better than a 80 year old lady making $100 a day to be a poll worker.
What we do in Illinois is give you a receipt number if you have to vote provissional. You can then log onto our website, enter your number, and you can see if your vote counted or not. It seems to work pretty well.
My friend, I think you are arguing against the dirty politics found in a loophole of the HAVA bill. The RNC has taken advantage of that like you stated. I'm sure the DNC has as well.
How would you go about provissionals? Just let someone vote even if they aren't registered in that precinct? Do you have any idea what that would lead to? There has to be a way to do provisionals and right now this is what we've got. There's loopholes in it, just like every other piece of legislation, and some groups will exploit that.
I would think he's gone a little past authoritarianism
What do you mean gone past authoritarianism? Towards what? Communism?Communism is a system of economics, it has nothing to do with authoritariansim. Most (probably all) existing "communist" states are authoritarian, but just because a state has strict control over the population, doesn't mean it's communist. In a pure, Marxist communism, the state would cease to exist.
What do you mean gone past authoritarianism? Towards what? Communism?Communism is a system of economics, it has nothing to do with authoritariansim. Most (probably all) existing "communist" states are authoritarian, but just because a state has strict control over the population, doesn't mean it's communist. In a pure, Marxist communism, the state would cease to exist.
I understand that communism is a system of economics. My reference was to going back to the type of leaders that Russia had while it was a communist state.
To anyone thinks that there is a conspiracy against Ron Paul supporters:
You, my friend, are a moron. At least when it comes to the voting process. Ron Paul is a republican. Millions of people are republican. And Unless you went to the RNC website and entered all of your personal information on the "We're voting for Ron Paul so please descriminate against us" page, then I can't see any way they'd be able to do that.
Because you changed from democart to republican? I'm sure many people did that to vote for McCain, as he's popular with that crowd.
It's a big process, people, and mistake will happen. Yes, maybe california is worse, but McCain (who is popular with democrats, remember) won that state.
And second, anyone MORON that brings a camera into a voting station is going to be told to shut it off. Or is every polling worker alerted when an RP supporter comes in? That would be pretty difficult.
Of course, there aren't that many, so I guess that makes it easier.
So please, no more "Oh, Republicans are being treated unfairly at the polls" threads. They are moronic.
Videos are not allowed in poling places. Especially as close to the table as this guy was. Poll books have all sorts of information on them that I don't think any regular Joe would like to video taped and lord knows what done w/ it.
My friend, I think you are arguing against the dirty politics found in a loophole of the HAVA bill. The RNC has taken advantage of that like you stated.
Agreed. However, they broke laws via the "caging" of African-American voters and some will be found guilty of a felony, including possibly Karl Rove and most definitely Tim Griffin.
I've yet to see any evidence of that. Until then, I'll reserve judgement that any group other than the RNC has engaged in exploiting the loophole and breaking voting rights laws.
How would you go about provissionals? Just let someone vote even if they aren't registered in that precinct? Do you have any idea what that would lead to? There has to be a way to do provisionals and right now this is what we've got. There's loopholes in it, just like every other piece of legislation, and some groups will exploit that.
I have no problem with "provisionals" being supplied to people who aren't on the rolls. That is what the law is designed to remedy. I do have a problem with mass "challenges" resulting from "caging". Karl Rove and his gang knew this when they passed the law. They should all be in jail right now. They used the loophole to steal the 2004 election. The exit polls were accurate.
Agreed. However, they broke laws via the "caging" of African-American voters and some will be found guilty of a felony, including possibly Karl Rove and most definitely Tim Griffin.
I've yet to see any evidence of that. Until then, I'll reserve judgement that any group other than the RNC has engaged in exploiting the loophole and breaking voting rights laws.
As someone that's worked on many Democratic campaigns, I can assure you that stuff like this goes on at all levels. Maybe not the degree which has you so upset.
I have no problem with "provisionals" being supplied to people who aren't on the rolls. That is what the law is designed to remedy. I do have a problem with mass "challenges" resulting from "caging". Karl Rove and his gang knew this when they passed the law. They should all be in jail right now. They used the loophole to steal the 2004 election. The exit polls were accurate.
As long as there are people like Karl Rove in the world, someone will always be trying to manipulate the system. When they're the ones writing the laws and signing them into effect, it's hard to combat.
I'm not being an apologist for this law. I'm paid by HAVA funds, my job is to get the whole state of Illinois (110 Election jurisdictions) up to code on a statewide voter registration database. I'm sorry you don't like the part about provisional ballots, but out of thirty pages of legislation for the bill I am sure there are things I would not agree with either.
An Act
To establish a program to provide funds to States to replace punch card voting systems, to establish the Election Assistance commissio to assist in the administration of Federal election laws and programs, to establish minimum election administration standards for Staes and units of local government with responsibility for the administration of Federal elections, and for other purposes.
Sounds like a real evil bill. There's much more to it than your provissional grievence.
Edit:
I have to be quite honest with you. I just re-read section 302 of HAVA, which deals with provissional ballots, and it does not mention anything about someone being challenged. If someones name does not appear on the official poll book then they are allowed to vote a provissional ballot. You might run into problems with these because some counties/states use provissionals as a way to end an argument at a polling place. It allows for it to be decided later with the county official making the call---who knows the laws better than a 80 year old lady making $100 a day to be a poll worker.
What we do in Illinois is give you a receipt number if you have to vote provissional. You can then log onto our website, enter your number, and you can see if your vote counted or not. It seems to work pretty well.
so the truth comes out, you are paid to make us believe that nothing is wrong with the process
so the truth comes out, you are paid to make us believe that nothing is wrong with the process
I think I've heard enough from you
You are part of the problem
Nimrods who think there is some mass conspiracy are the problem. I've stated numerous times in this very thread that there are loopholes and problems in the system.
Now I'm getting paid to to cover this all up? Jesus...your crazy knows no limits.
Here is a tip, NOT EVERYTHING IS A FUCKING CONSPIRACY
Nimrods who think there is some mass conspiracy are the problem. I've stated numerous times in this very thread that there are loopholes and problems in the system.
Now I'm getting paid to to cover this all up? Jesus...your crazy knows no limits.
Here is a tip, NOT EVERYTHING IS A FUCKING CONSPIRACY
Comments
If you are in Illinois, chances are they didn't pervert the process in 2004. It was not a state that George W Bush had a shot at winning, even if 5 percent of the vote was suppressed. Are you aware of voters being shunted to "provisional" ballots due to "challenges" where you are? If so, was it on a large scale? Also, what are examples of things that don't go with election laws that lead to "a provisional" ballot being denied?
In 2004 in Ohio, there over 160,000 "challenges" that resulted in "provisional" ballots. Nationwide, the total was around 3 Million. Those are absurdly ridiculous numbers. Ken Blackwell is scheduled to appear before the House Judiciary committee tommorrow, I'm sure he'll be asked about some of this.
If a poll watcher challenges someones residence than the person usually has to vote provissional. I'm sure it happens in every county. Another instance is that if someone hasn't voted in two general elections they go from an "active" to "inactive" voter status, and if they show up to vote, and can't prove that they are at the same address than they will have to vote provissional.
One thing that causes a voter to get "purged" like is when the election authorities mail out new voter cards to everyone in the county, and if the post office tries to deliver it and the person doesn't live there anymore it's returned to the county. From that point they pupt that voter on the "inactive" list because they clearly don't live at the address the are registered at.
http://www.reverbnation.com/brianzilm
It seems to me that you are backing up the perversion of the process. In 2004, the RNC sent out welcome letters to new registrants (as the pretext to challenging voters). They only sent these out to new registrants they suspected would not be voting for their guy. They also sent mail to other African-American voters. They had to send these out "first class" at great cost to them (i.e. millions of $$). No election campaign sends out first class mail. It's too expensive. The letters were marked "Do Not Forward". If the letters came back, those registered voters were put on a list to be challenged at the polls and forced to vote via "provisional" ballot.
Letters were sent during the summertime to students who were registered at all black colleges. These came back because noone is there in the summer. Letters were sent to homeless people who had used a homeless shelter as an address on their registration. Since they were living on the streets, the letters came back. Most disgusting of all, letters were sent to African-American soldiers who were sent overseas. Of course the first class letters were undeliverable at the address they had registered from. All of these people were "challenged" by Republican operatives and if the vote counters were for the Republican candidate (i.e. George W Bush), these "provisional" ballot would get rejected. This is in large part how the 2004 election was stolen, although there were other methods employed.
You seem to be endorsing the HAVA law. The HAVA law was created under the guise of a well intentioned law, but it was actually put together by the Bush Administration to effectively suppress millions of likely Democratic candidate votes.
The mail scheme that was employed is something called "caging" and "caging" is an illegal felony if it is done to target voters by race. The evidence of "caging" was never supposed to get in the hands of anyone other than the criminals. However, some of the missing email from the RNC HQ computers was misaddressed and went to the wrong server. Now the Judiciary committee has the evidence and there will be jail time for one or more of the conspirators.
House Judiciary chairman John Conyers has introduce a bill to make caging illegal. Speaking for myself, when I was younger I was a registered voter using my parents address on my registration. Eventually, I moved around to a few different locations within 15 miles of that residence. During elections, I would still go to the polling place of my registration and cast my ballot. Apparently, I could have been subject to challenge and had my ballot rejected.
The whole system is being ravaged by those who don't want the people to decide who gets elected and they are using the incorrect notion that illegal aliens are voting and possibly voting more than once. This is not happening, but they want to create a hysteria to get support for voter ID cards. If they ever get that, the homeless and the poor will be locked out of the voting booth and Democracy will be dead.
Before the HAVA law, it never would happen or happened very rarely. In 2004, there were over 3 million challenges nationwide. I request that you stop being an apologist for this law.
I'm not being an apologist for this law. I'm paid by HAVA funds, my job is to get the whole state of Illinois (110 Election jurisdictions) up to code on a statewide voter registration database. I'm sorry you don't like the part about provisional ballots, but out of thirty pages of legislation for the bill I am sure there are things I would not agree with either.
An Act
To establish a program to provide funds to States to replace punch card voting systems, to establish the Election Assistance commissio to assist in the administration of Federal election laws and programs, to establish minimum election administration standards for Staes and units of local government with responsibility for the administration of Federal elections, and for other purposes.
Sounds like a real evil bill. There's much more to it than your provissional grievence.
Edit:
I have to be quite honest with you. I just re-read section 302 of HAVA, which deals with provissional ballots, and it does not mention anything about someone being challenged. If someones name does not appear on the official poll book then they are allowed to vote a provissional ballot. You might run into problems with these because some counties/states use provissionals as a way to end an argument at a polling place. It allows for it to be decided later with the county official making the call---who knows the laws better than a 80 year old lady making $100 a day to be a poll worker.
What we do in Illinois is give you a receipt number if you have to vote provissional. You can then log onto our website, enter your number, and you can see if your vote counted or not. It seems to work pretty well.
http://www.reverbnation.com/brianzilm
How would you go about provissionals? Just let someone vote even if they aren't registered in that precinct? Do you have any idea what that would lead to? There has to be a way to do provisionals and right now this is what we've got. There's loopholes in it, just like every other piece of legislation, and some groups will exploit that.
http://www.reverbnation.com/brianzilm
I understand that communism is a system of economics. My reference was to going back to the type of leaders that Russia had while it was a communist state.
http://www.reverbnation.com/brianzilm
To anyone thinks that there is a conspiracy against Ron Paul supporters:
You, my friend, are a moron. At least when it comes to the voting process. Ron Paul is a republican. Millions of people are republican. And Unless you went to the RNC website and entered all of your personal information on the "We're voting for Ron Paul so please descriminate against us" page, then I can't see any way they'd be able to do that.
Because you changed from democart to republican? I'm sure many people did that to vote for McCain, as he's popular with that crowd.
It's a big process, people, and mistake will happen. Yes, maybe california is worse, but McCain (who is popular with democrats, remember) won that state.
And second, anyone MORON that brings a camera into a voting station is going to be told to shut it off. Or is every polling worker alerted when an RP supporter comes in? That would be pretty difficult.
Of course, there aren't that many, so I guess that makes it easier.
So please, no more "Oh, Republicans are being treated unfairly at the polls" threads. They are moronic.
That's probably why the poll worker got so pissy.
http://www.reverbnation.com/brianzilm
Agreed. However, they broke laws via the "caging" of African-American voters and some will be found guilty of a felony, including possibly Karl Rove and most definitely Tim Griffin.
I've yet to see any evidence of that. Until then, I'll reserve judgement that any group other than the RNC has engaged in exploiting the loophole and breaking voting rights laws.
I have no problem with "provisionals" being supplied to people who aren't on the rolls. That is what the law is designed to remedy. I do have a problem with mass "challenges" resulting from "caging". Karl Rove and his gang knew this when they passed the law. They should all be in jail right now. They used the loophole to steal the 2004 election. The exit polls were accurate.
As someone that's worked on many Democratic campaigns, I can assure you that stuff like this goes on at all levels. Maybe not the degree which has you so upset.
As long as there are people like Karl Rove in the world, someone will always be trying to manipulate the system. When they're the ones writing the laws and signing them into effect, it's hard to combat.
http://www.reverbnation.com/brianzilm
so the truth comes out, you are paid to make us believe that nothing is wrong with the process
I think I've heard enough from you
You are part of the problem
PEARL JAM~San Antonio, TX. 4~5~03
INCUBUS~Houston, TX. 1~19~07
INCUBUS~Denver, CO. 2~8~07
Lollapalooza~Chicago, IL. 8~5~07
INCUBUS~Austin, TX. 9~3~07
Bonnaroo~Manchester, TN 6~14~08
Think russia is closer to nazism with the strong nationalist current.
Nimrods who think there is some mass conspiracy are the problem. I've stated numerous times in this very thread that there are loopholes and problems in the system.
Now I'm getting paid to to cover this all up? Jesus...your crazy knows no limits.
Here is a tip, NOT EVERYTHING IS A FUCKING CONSPIRACY
http://www.reverbnation.com/brianzilm
whatever you say.........
at least you get paid for it, right?
PEARL JAM~San Antonio, TX. 4~5~03
INCUBUS~Houston, TX. 1~19~07
INCUBUS~Denver, CO. 2~8~07
Lollapalooza~Chicago, IL. 8~5~07
INCUBUS~Austin, TX. 9~3~07
Bonnaroo~Manchester, TN 6~14~08