McCain on the Mortgage Crisis

ACCBootlegGoddess

OffHeGoes29 wrote:

That link has spyware shit all over it, I can't even open it.

Thats not his job to run the nations economy.....tell me in here where it says "issues of the economy"

Ok you do know that in running the country, almost all his decisions AFFECT THE ECONOMY! In a sense he DOES run the economy even if its not in writing for people to see. To say that the job of president has nothing to do with the economy is Ludicrous.

jimed14

ACCBootlegGoddess wrote:

Ok you do know that in running the country, almost all his decisions AFFECT THE ECONOMY! In a sense he DOES run the economy even if its not in writing for people to see. To say that the job of president has nothing to do with the economy is Ludicrous.

ha ... from a Canadian no less ... I wish you were allowed to vote ...

OffHeGoes29

Well I guess I'm out of my league here. Because for every point I make, there are three more to shoot it down. None of which want to debate the issue, just poke holes in my view.

Obama is a good man, I don't have a problem with him. Hes a good Senitor with a lot of great ideas and brings a lot to the table. I still don't feel hes right for President, I disagree with him on more issues then McCain. I don't always agree with everything McCain has to say, but I still feel he will make a better President.

So in November, I will vote for McCain here in CT. Which won't matter anyway because it will fall to Obama. I'm making my voice heard, and regardless of the out come, I will support who ever wins the office because thats who America picked. I truely love this country and wish for great times ahead in our future. Unlike most of you, I want to see a COMPROMISE, not whats good for the left and right.

Oh, and I'm not bullshitting you, that link to the Dallas paper was all fucked up. If you are going to spend the time and post it, I'll read it. Can I say the same for you? After all, it was all the great posts here on this board that solitified my choice for McCain. He can't thank you enough.

OffHeGoes29

Oh and here is my post that started my quest for who I should vote for...

http://forums.pearljam.com/showthread.php?t=299366

You had your chance to make an educated point...

Outlaw also said he was voting for McCain.....the sky is falling. So thats two for McCain right there.

Have a good night

jimed14

OffHeGoes29 wrote:

Well I guess I'm out of my league here. Because for every point I make, there are three more to shoot it down. None of which want to debate the issue, just poke holes in my view.

Obama is a good man, I don't have a problem with him. Hes a good Senitor with a lot of great ideas and brings a lot to the table. I still don't feel hes right for President, I disagree with him on more issues then McCain. I don't always agree with everything McCain has to say, but I still feel he will make a better President.

So in November, I will vote for McCain here in CT. Which won't matter anyway because it will fall to Obama. I'm making my voice heard, and regardless of the out come, I will support who ever wins the office because thats who America picked. I truely love this country and wish for great times ahead in our future. Unlike most of you, I want to see a COMPROMISE, not whats good for the left and right.

Oh, and I'm not bullshitting you, that link to the Dallas paper was all fucked up. If you are going to spend the time and post it, I'll read it. Can I say the same for you? After all, it was all the great posts here on this board that solitified my choice for McCain. He can't thank you enough.

man .... you post sounds like one of those folks that say that "if you're against the war, your against the troops" ... just because I'm for one candidate, pretty strongly, I'm not against America ... I don't want the economy to go to shit or for US to lose troops to prove anyone wrong.

You asked for a debate, I brought it to you, you just kept stating "the president doesn't control the economy", offered nothing about McCain's stances ... etc ...

Anyway ... if you disagree with the basic tennants of each person/party ... that's one thing ... then you cast your vote. Someone asked for a crash course on the issues ... I posted a non-partisan post on where each stood ... here ... http://forums.pearljam.com/showthread.php?t=303283

OffHeGoes29

jimed14 wrote:

man .... you post sounds like one of those folks that say that "if you're against the war, your against the troops" ... just because I'm for one candidate, pretty strongly, I'm not against America ... I don't want the economy to go to shit or for US to lose troops to prove anyone wrong.

You asked for a debate, I brought it to you, you just kept stating "the president doesn't control the economy", offered nothing about McCain's stances ... etc ...

Anyway ... if you disagree with the basic tennants of each person/party ... that's one thing ... then you cast your vote. Someone asked for a crash course on the issues ... I posted a non-partisan post on where each stood ... here ... http://forums.pearljam.com/showthread.php?t=303283

Absolutly not, you have no idea on how much I argue with ultra right minded people. I feel that people haven't voiced their opinions enough, thats why things have got as far as they have. And my argument was simple: Some issues are out of the President's hands, he may have a plan or an opinion, but he doesn't control every aspect of our country. You can't pin the economy on him, its commen sense and even my dumb ass knows it. Its scapegoating for what is a complicated issue. This is not a problem that can be solved in this thread, or by any of us, because we don't have the slightest idea where to begin. None of us are experts in the economy, the war in Iraq, or any other issue for that matter. We vote on what we believe is right based on our limited knowledge. I was looking for a debate about the facts, and I thought I was clear as I could be with out skirting the issue.

Don't take anything personal. We disagree about one issue, I don't think any less of you or anyone else here for having an opinion. besides, you like Pearl Jam and thats something I can agree with....good taste in music.

Well enough is enough, I have to get to bed. I'm done posting here for a while.

digster

OffHeGoes29 wrote:

Oh and here is my post that started my quest for who I should vote for...

http://forums.pearljam.com/showthread.php?t=299366

You had your chance to make an educated point...

Outlaw also said he was voting for McCain.....the sky is falling. So thats two for McCain right there.

Have a good night

Must say, I don't really understand what you're saying with these "nyah-nyah" posts..."well, I was undecided till I met you guys!" If someone was so turned off of Obama by the opinions of posters on a Pearl Jam message board, the chances are they probably wouldn't have voted for them anyway. So I'm personally not really feeling any lost opportunity.

ACCBootlegGoddess

jimed14 wrote:

man .... you post sounds like one of those folks that say that "if you're against the war, your against the troops" ... just because I'm for one candidate, pretty strongly, I'm not against America ... I don't want the economy to go to shit or for US to lose troops to prove anyone wrong.

You asked for a debate, I brought it to you, you just kept stating "the president doesn't control the economy", offered nothing about McCain's stances ... etc ...

Anyway ... if you disagree with the basic tennants of each person/party ... that's one thing ... then you cast your vote. Someone asked for a crash course on the issues ... I posted a non-partisan post on where each stood ... here ... http://forums.pearljam.com/showthread.php?t=303283

haha I was JUST making a post with that VERY link!!!
Offhegoes...you do know that Outlaws comment in that thread you posted was sarcasm right??? I mean its pretty obvious. I dunno how he's voting, but I find it hard to believe he was serious there.
Please read Jims link...its EXCELLENT and he's the only person that posted anything INTELLIGENT for me to get a sense of McCains stance on things.

I asked for DAYS for the Republicans to please show me what issues convinced them to vote for Mccain and all I got was anti obama stuff and strategic voting answers (voting for Mccain cause they are voting against Obama not cause they agree with the guy).

Also please remember McCain is 72 and there is a good chance he might not live his full term....are YOU comfortable with Palin as his successor....as a woman I urge you to look at her stance on things and think of the women in your life before answering that. (rape kits, abortion stance)...or if your an Animal lover look up her Wolf bounty.

ACCBootlegGoddess

OffHeGoes29 wrote:

Absolutly not, you have no idea on how much I argue with ultra right minded people. I feel that people haven't voiced their opinions enough, thats why things have got as far as they have. And my argument was simple: Some issues are out of the President's hands, he may have a plan or an opinion, but he doesn't control every aspect of our country. You can't pin the economy on him, its commen sense and even my dumb ass knows it. Its scapegoating for what is a complicated issue. This is not a problem that can be solved in this thread, or by any of us, because we don't have the slightest idea where to begin. None of us are experts in the economy, the war in Iraq, or any other issue for that matter. We vote on what we believe is right based on our limited knowledge. I was looking for a debate about the facts, and I thought I was clear as I could be with out skirting the issue.

Don't take anything personal. We disagree about one issue, I don't think any less of you or anyone else here for having an opinion. besides, you like Pearl Jam and thats something I can agree with....good taste in music.

Well enough is enough, I have to get to bed. I'm done posting here for a while.

That post has MANY Issues in it....if you truly are open minded you'll read that post. It IS non Partisan....and a VERY good read. If you do nothing else tonight...please read that.

OffHeGoes29

ACCBootlegGoddess wrote:

haha I was JUST making a post with that VERY link!!!
Offhegoes...you do know that Outlaws comment in that thread you posted was sarcasm right??? I mean its pretty obvious. I dunno how he's voting, but I find it hard to believe he was serious there.
Please read Jims link...its EXCELLENT and he's the only person that posted anything INTELLIGENT for me to get a sense of McCains stance on things.

I asked for DAYS for the Republicans to please show me what issues convinced them to vote for Mccain and all I got was anti obama stuff and strategic voting answers (voting for Mccain cause they are voting against Obama not cause they agree with the guy).

Also please remember McCain is 72 and there is a good chance he might not live his full term....are YOU comfortable with Palin as his successor....as a woman I urge you to look at her stance on things and think of the women in your life before answering that. (rape kits, abortion stance)...or if your an Animal lover look up her Wolf bounty.

Yeah, it was sarcasm. I maybe the only one here thats voting for him. There was no harm involved in that comment.

OffHeGoes29

digster wrote:

Must say, I don't really understand what you're saying with these "nyah-nyah" posts..."well, I was undecided till I met you guys!" If someone was so turned off of Obama by the opinions of posters on a Pearl Jam message board, the chances are they probably wouldn't have voted for them anyway. So I'm personally not really feeling any lost opportunity.

Yep, pretty much it. I didn't know shit about what was going on untill I came here.

DriftingByTheStorm

SuzannePjam wrote:

The president doesn't control our economy, but President Bush had a direct hand in it's downward spiral. Because of this irresponsible, mismanaged war in Iraq, combined with large tax cuts, both financed by Japan and China, our dollar has become devalued because of our huge debt. Combine that situation with the large number of people spending all their money on healthcare and perscriptions--the middle class has become stretched to its financial limit. Not all of the reason our economy is in such a bad state, but this definitely had a hand in it.

The current crisis IS NOT PARTISAN.

As much as crazy libs want to sit on this board and blame everything that has gone wrong in the past year on this administration, and on bush and his cronies and their war profiteering, and bad foreign and domestic policy, THIS CRISIS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THIS ADMINISTRATION.

IT IS A SYSTEMIC ISSUE

People need to get a grasp on the reality of this FISCAL problem.

This crisis is a MONETARY one.
It stems directly from poor institutional fundamentals.
We have\had a HIGHLY LEVERAGED SYSTEM that was DESTINED to break down at some point, and unfortunately that breakdown is apparently going to be catastrophic (or nearly so).

The war in iraq, the spending it entailed, education, tax cuts, health care, job creation, NONE OF THAT HAS ANYTHING TO DO WITH WHAT IS GOING ON RIGHT NOW.

I'm sorry folks. It just isn't so.
Those things may suck, and they may have lead to their own problems in time, and they may BE problems in their own right, but they have ZERO to do with what is catastrophically fucked up right now.

We are experiencing a problem due to bad systemic arrangements in the BANKING sector alone. It is about greedy banks with poor (deliberately so) underwriting standards - GIVING STUPID LOANS TO STUPID PEOPLE - and even worse, it is about a system which guarantees catastrophic failure - Fannie\Freddie, and subsidisation of the housing markets in general ... it is about the way the Federal Reserve imposes a MASSIVE, unmitigated, and unscrupulous moral hazard on the system ... by encouraging the largest of the large banks to be the riskiest of the risky ... ensuring that when a crisis does develop, it will not be a mom and pop problem, it will be a systemic problem originating from the very top, the very height, the very largest and most gargantuan of banking institutions -- Lehman, Merril, BoA, Wachovia, WAMU, AIG etc etc etc etc ...

This shit can ONLY happen because of The Federal Reserve, and the fiscal policy that entails ... the policy of manipulating interest rates to serve the top 1% of the top 1% ... the arrangement of a CARTEL to serve the banks ... to funnel money at below market rates to the top of the top ... to be leveraged out tens and hundreds of times over through loans, and through derivatives investments, and to be funneled out in to the system willy nilly ...

and one day ... OF COURSE ... OF COURSE ONE DAY IT WOULD ALL COME DOWN LIKE A HOUSE OF CARDS ...

it is not, WAS NOT, and NEVER WILL BE a sustainable model for a monetary system ... it is NOT a smart LONG TERM way to run an economy ...

what it does serve to do is provide the FALSE ILLUSION OF GROWTH, and provide VERY HANDSOME SHORT TERM PROFITS TO THE ELITE that the system was built by and for.

Unfortunately their own goddamn frankenstein monster has now come to murder them all ... their very own stupid fucking system has run amuck, and is eating itself ... imploding ... the leveraged money train has derailed and is exploding in an awesome and frightening mess ... the house of cards is tumbling down ... the loans and investments which are leveraged out 100s to 1 are failing, and now those pains are coming home to fuck the elite in the face ... now they OWE 100s of dollars for every 1 dollar they PRETENDED to have.

The smoke and mirrors are falling to the side, and it is becoming obvious that the system is COMPLETELY BROKEN.

IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE PRESIDENT!

I would NOT EXPECT the president to understand what the fuck is going on right now. It is above the heads of half of the fucking economists in this country ...

Fuck i had some jerk on here come after me and tell me i was an idiot for saying that our dollars are nothing more than debt notes, and that our money supply is one in the same with our national debt ... it IS our national debt ...

and this motherfucker tells me he went to an ivy league school to study economics and that i'm a dipshit.

Well HE couldn't be more wrong ... and if that is the kind of arrogant, mislead, uninformed, and completely unaware economists that our top tier schools our turning out, NO WONDER WE'RE FUCKED.

And NO WONDER our presidents can't fathom what the fuck is going on.

again, in simple english:
THIS IS A SYSTEMIC PROBLEM OF EPIC PROPORTIONS, STEMMING FROM IRRATIONAL AND UNSUSTAINABLE FISCAL and MONETARY POLICY, PRIMARILY REGARDING THE ORIGINATION OF CREDIT IN THIS COUNTRY, AND OF THE FAULTY INSTITUTIONS THAT DO SO.

IN THE WORDS OF OUR GREAT FOREFATHERS:

"All the perplexities, confusion and distress in America arise not from defects in their Constitution or Confederation, nor from want of honor or virtue, so much as downright ignorance of the nature of coin, credit, and circulation."
John Adams

and

"If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their money, first by inflation and then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around them (around the banks), will deprive the people of their property until their children will wake up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered."
Thomas Jefferson


THOSE WORDS SEND FUCKING SHIVERS UP MY SPINE.
I posted this shit on here endlessly last year, and was mocked just as many times.

maybe now people will start to shake their damn heads, realize what the fuck happened, AND THEN START SHAKING THEIR FISTS IN VIOLENT ANGER at the system which has been cast upon them to destroy them, and those that would seek to maintain it for their own personal profit and power!

jimed14

But now we are faced with the issue ... "Who's going to lead us out of this?"

Can we have your thoughts on that?

heartdesire

jimed14 wrote:

But now we are faced with the issue ... "Who's going to lead us out of this?"

Can we have your thoughts on that?

Yes DriftingByStorm please continue on, you share a wise perspective.

Though one point doesn't align for me, you quoted (2) Presidents who understood what was going on. Granted they were our 2nd & 3rd respectively. They were Presidents with understanding and foresight. How can we not hold our current President and past presidents accountable on the very same? Excuse my ignorance please, just a question ...

DriftingByTheStorm

heart&desire wrote:

Yes DriftingByStorm please continue on, you share a wise perspective.

Though one point doesn't align for me, you quoted (2) Presidents who understood what was going on. Granted they were our 2nd & 3rd respectively. They were Presidents with understanding and foresight. How can we not hold our current President and past presidents accountable on the very same? Excuse my ignorance please, just a question ...

eh.
i think you have a point there.

A president SHOULD be able to grasp the fundamental nature of credit in our country. Clearly Ron Paul gets it.

I guess the difference i was seeing is that we are dealing with a new world, where specialization of skill is so minutely specific that expecting someone like the president to understand the INTRICACIES of our current system in detail is probably not a likely scenario.

I will, on the otherhand, concede that most of these candidates DO understand a LOT more than they let on about the FUNDAMENTAL nature of this crisis. The problem is, they would be FOOLS to admit it to the public, because, as Henry Ford said,

"It is well that the people of the nation do not understand our banking and monetary system, for if they did, I believe there would be a revolution before tomorrow morning."

So, H&D, perhaps you are correct, that i am just being naive about my WISH that our leaders should also not be able to comprehend the nature of the system ... but such a suggestion (that they DO get it) leads down the rabbit hole of truth to a much darker reality ... the idea that the government does not exist to serve you, but only to protect the interests of the most elite players in the game, and that they will lie to you endlessly about the nature of the problem, in order to keep you distracted.

"Hey, McCain is an idiot, he doesn't get it!"

When, perhaps, as you so suggest, they BOTH really do get it, and get it on the whole, but would prefer to lie to the masses for political convenience.

:(

mammasan

OffHeGoes29 wrote:

What about a stupid pig comment and sex ed? We both know that when you ride the party ticket, you play by their rules untill you're elected. The mud slinging would happen regardless if neither one of them where against it

As I see it, the Dems do most of the attacking. Count it and tell me I'm wrong. And McCain is usually the first person to tell you that he is not up to speed with something.

There was an article in The Atlantic that stated that the Dems had produced the most attack ads but the majority focused on McCain's stance on issues. The McCain campaign's attack ads, while fewer, focused more on personal attacks against Obama himself.

dmitry

Obama talking about it as it unfolds is not foresight.
Dr Paul was talking about this 5 years ago.
http://www.lewrockwell.com/paul/paul128.html

heartdesire

DriftingByTheStorm wrote:

eh.
i think you have a point there.

A president SHOULD be able to grasp the fundamental nature of credit in our country. Clearly Ron Paul gets it.

I guess the difference i was seeing is that we are dealing with a new world, where specialization of skill is so minutely specific that expecting someone like the president to understand the INTRICACIES of our current system in detail is probably not a likely scenario.

I will, on the otherhand, concede that most of these candidates DO understand a LOT more than they let on about the FUNDAMENTAL nature of this crisis. The problem is, they would be FOOLS to admit it to the public, because, as Henry Ford said,

"It is well that the people of the nation do not understand our banking and monetary system, for if they did, I believe there would be a revolution before tomorrow morning."

So, H&D, perhaps you are correct, that i am just being naive about my WISH that our leaders should also not be able to comprehend the nature of the system ... but such a suggestion (that they DO get it) leads down the rabbit hole of truth to a much darker reality ... the idea that the government does not exist to serve you, but only to protect the interests of the most elite players in the game, and that they will lie to you endlessly about the nature of the problem, in order to keep you distracted.

"Hey, McCain is an idiot, he doesn't get it!"

When, perhaps, as you so suggest, they BOTH really do get it, and get it on the whole, but would prefer to lie to the masses for political convenience.

:(

I understand what you are saying. I'm not accusing you of being naive. : )
I myself am and am finally growing a needed awareness about the system. I'm much older than you ... well better late than never!

The things you share are making me look deeper into issues and this is greatly appreciated.

When you have some time check out the link below. I am as well. Something I should have been doing all along, as well for State Budgets (at least my own state). This at least gives a better understanding of how things are created and appropriated.

---

http://www.gpoaccess.gov/usbudget/about.html

Budget of the United States Government: About

According to the Budget and Accounting Act of 1921, the president must annually submit a budget to Congress by the first Monday in February. The proposed spending plan, the president's budget must show:

* The condition of the Treasury at the end of the last completed fiscal year.
* The estimated condition of the Treasury at the end of the current fiscal year.
* The estimated condition of the Treasury at the end of the next fiscal year if the budget proposals are carried out.

The Office of Management and Budget (OMB) assists the president in the creation of the president's budget by gathering data from agencies and compiling it into the final plan to be approved by the president.

The totals for the current and upcoming fiscal years are only projected amounts. Annual budget documents provide Congress, State and local governments, and the public with a complete description of the president's budget plans for the coming fiscal year. Other related and supporting budget publications, such as the Economic Report of the President, are included, which may vary from year to year.

---

I feel the system has become a mockery. How many times have I written that in that last ten days! : ) frustration ... How is it gonna get balanced? Can we get a Ron Paul in, who has foresight, experience and understanding in many areas, at least for a term? Probably not this time around. Though, If enough of us get sick enough of the crap being spoon fed, then maybe. The system, unfortunately is what it is. It seems it would take a few years to get things in balance and a sure fight from those comfy inside. In my own naivety, to me Washington has become this "political machine" based on lies and lobbyists. Are there any earnest folks or are they all just workin' the established system? Hell I live in Chicago and am in the heart of a corrupt "political machine"! It is all hard to fathom.

In commentary to the specialization. There is truth to that, though there has to be some accountability and understanding. Which directly stems to the budget and the Federal Reserve. These folks, or many, know how this system works, they do. Especially President Bush, he isn't as dumb as he seems and neither is Cheney. To me, unfortunately, there is a darker side to things ... and that is all I can muster on this at the moment.

Please keep sharing your views, they sure stretch mine. I've got a bit more research and understanding to do on my own accord!

: ) h&d

DriftingByTheStorm

oops. wrong thread.

Cosmo

OffHeGoes29 wrote:

Have you guys watch the whole video? He answer that question rather well.

I couple of months ago I was on the fence about who to vote for. I came to this board to try to get a different perspective, and since I started reading the post on this board, they have pushed me to vote for McCain with more confidence. For every post people put on this board about McCain, I look into to it and find where they get their facts. Well all its done was convince me more that McCain is the right man for the job. I haven't read a post yet that hasn't been taken way out of context and cherry picked lines to make it seem like hes another GW Bush. Some of you are no better then the ultra right.

Thanks for the push. And just think, I gave Obama and Nader a consideration this time around. You guys should keep your opinions to this board, you might turn people away, and vote for another "4 years of Bush".

I don't post anti Obama posts that paint him to be an evil man, hes smart man with a lot of good ideas. I just don't think hes ready to be President.

...
So... in other words...
You let the opinions of anonymous posters on a Rock Band's message board influence your decision on whom to vote for?
...
Well...
...
Ummmmm...
...
?
...
yeah.. 'Informed Voter'...
...